which dr?

[Gorpy]

Hi Mil,

You have found yet another behind the times doctor. Thanks for weeding them out for us .

 

Stick with the coalition doctors. It'll save you alot of time and frustration.

 

Dense packing does not mean only using single hairs. Yes, the FU's have to be neatly trimmed, but the best doctors have proven that they will have a very high survival rate. It takes a very skilled crew of techs to do this. Dr. Feller routinely dense packs 50 or more FU's per square cm. If there were a low survival rate with his procedure, we would all know about it by now.

[Guest Cousin_It]

It seems you have spent a considerable amount of time so far in having consultations with doctors that are unsuitable, do you have appointments with any Coalition doctors in the upcoming weeks. In looking back at some of the recommendations made by myself and other members of the forum, you have been given very sound advice on particular doctors to consider, have you seen any of them? We are all trying to help you out but it seems so far you are not listening. I hope for your sake you will take our advice into consideration and book with one of the "good" doctors.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Mil,

 

My best advice is select one of the docs from the list below:

 

http://www.hairlosslearningcenter.org/hair-loss-content...s/our_physicians.asp

 

Click on the link above. These doctors have proven themselves to be the "best of the best" over the years by using the latest techniques and yielding consistent and excellent results.

 

To learn more about the coalition membership standards, which I recommend you read so you understand why we recommend these doctors, click the below link:

 

http://www.hairlosslearningcenter.org/hair-loss-content...ership-standards.asp

 

More advice...sorry if this is repeat:

 

1. I know it's tempting to go to a local doc..but do NOT let location dictate which doctor you go and see. If you click on my third HT link below, I went to see Dr. Hasson who is over 3000 miles away. Sure I took a couple days off of work, but my wife and I went and we had a good time. My only regret is we couldn't stay in beautiful Vancouver longer.

 

2. Research more about HTs and the newest technologies. Any doctor who limits themselves to 800 grafts as a MAX is behind the times. It is different if they recommend 800 grafts for your particular case (if that's indeed what you need), but do yourself a favor and at least do 3 consults with the coalition doctors as well to see what they recommend. If travel is a problem for consultations, many doctors offer virtual consultations where you can upload photos, etc.

 

Check out the below links for pictures of women patients from various clinics from Coalition doctors:

 

1. Link 1: From Hasson and Wong in Vancouver, Canada (4622 grafts (as opposed to 800) in 1 session)

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/patient_gallery/photo_view...ansplant_type=normal

 

2. Link 2: From Feller Medical in NY (1,200 grafts in 1 session)

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/showthread.php?t=143788

 

Keep in mind that more grafts isn't necessarily always better. It's up to the doctor to determine YOUR needs, however, for a doctor to say that 800 is their limit no matter who the patient is, is behind the times.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Bill

[mil]

I understand and appreciate all your help. I just went for the consult on a whim - to learn, 'expose',out of curiosity. Yes, I have 2 appoints in Jan with Dr True and Dr Epstein. I am so looking forward to my procedure with a coalition dr. Thanks again!

[Guest Cousin_It]

I am very glad to hear you will be checking with these doctors in January. I am sure you will readily see the difference once you do. Is there any reason you are not scheduling a consultation with Dr. Feller? He is only 20 minutes from Manhattan, has onsite parking too. You would be depriving yourself of the opportunity to have one of the Coalition's top rated surgeons give you an evalution. IMO, you will be very glad you did.

[mil]

Thanks1 I'll see how my consults go with those two and dr Feller would be the next one to see.

[Guest Cousin_It]

Sorry to be so "pushy" on the subject, but from experience, I had a consultation with all these doctors plus Bernstein, I felt that Feller was the most aggressive and talented. I have not regretted my decision. Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Guest Paul M Straub MD FACS]

Faceros asked me if I would ever combine two four unit follicular grafts to make one eight hair MUG. No, I would not. I don't see many four hair follicular units and I don't recall seeing two side by side. Under any circumstances I would not select these two to make up a MUG.

Dr. Straub

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Straub,

 

That's good that you wouldn't combine two 4 unit grafts...I think doing that (like the old days) could create a pluggy appearance.

 

Mil,

 

I wish you much luck and success. Keep us posted on who you choose. You won't go wrong with a coalition doc. As Cousin_It said, there are some docs on the coalition who are considered more conservative and some more aggressive or liberal. It really depends on your needs though. There is no pressure here from any one to choose any specific doctor from the coalition...you should choose the one that is best for you.

 

Bill

[GratefulHead]

Hi Mil,

I've had two HTs by Dr. True and one just a week ago by Dr. Feller. I can say that I was very pleased overall with the transplants by Dr. True. He is a bit more conservative in his approach, but it isn't because he is not fully capable of being much more aggressive. He is more conservative because he has the patient's long-term best interests at heart. As with anything in life, HTs involve trade-offs and risks. If you go too aggressive for a given patient's scalp laxitity, you risk a wider/longer scar. Furthermore, it is a mathematical fact that no one has enough donor hair on the back/sides of their head to provide full density to a completely bald scalp (NW6/7). But if an aggressive doctor takes a large percentage of one's donor hair to achieve full density to say a receding hair line in the earlier stages of life-long progressive hair loss, that person may be ecstatic for a few years -- but 5, 10, 15, 20, or more years down the road that patient may be very sorry and wish they had done things differently. They may even be angry at their doctor for being so aggressive early on. They may not be able to afford to keep paying substantial sums of money to keep up with their progressive thinning to maintain a natural even look. You have to realize that many doctors who are capable of very large mega-sessions have a bias toward performing as large a session as possible because they make more money now. That is fine if that is what the patient wants also, but often times a patient relies on the doctor's recommendation. Dr. True is the epitomy of an ethical doctor, a man of integrity, and a true gentlemen (as his name implies ) He will not perform too large of a session if he feels the patient would be put at risk in terms of scar streching or expected long-term progressive hair loss. Even after two mega-sessions with him, my donor scar was very thin (around 1 mm) and very unnoticable. It is too early to say how my longer scar with Dr. Feller will be after a more agressive HT. All I can say is I recommend Dr. True highly from personal experience and you do well going and consulting with him. Best wishes for an amazing transformation whatever you decide!

GratefulHead

[Guest Cousin_It]

GratefulHead...

 

One question, since you were obviously pleased with Dr.True what made you switch to Feller. Did you have a followup with True after your surgeries and he would not provide you with what you were looking for? Just curious.

[mil]

once again, I really appreciate all the information and support. There doesn't seem to be as much info on Epstein,any particular reason? My appointments are on Jan 26th and I can't wait! this forum has really educated me. Hopefully,I'll only need one procedure.

[GratefulHead]

Mil,

You are most welcome I don't have any personal experience with Dr. Epstein so I can not comment.

 

Cousin_It,

I wanted increased density for my second surgery. I asked Dr. True for 2000 FU grafts. Due to slightly below average scalp laxity and expected future hair loss progression, he told me he thought 2000 was on the very high-end of what he would be able to get... so the target was defined as 1500-2000. For ethical reasons, he also limits the scar length to roughly ear-to-ear. When trying to maximize a session, a doctor doesn't really know exactly how much donor he will be able to yield until he goes in there. During my second procedure, Dr. True was only able to safely take 1309 FU grafts based on his highly qualified and very seasoned experience. He was more conservative and did what he thought was best for me ethically despite the fact I asked for more and he could have made more money if he pushed the limits. He actually gave me a partial refund because I had paid for 1500! Fast forward to my third procedure, the conservative thing to do would have been to go back to Dr. True. I knew from previous conversations to expect maybe 1100-1200 grafts this time around. I was willing to take some risk and go for a larger session from a more aggressive surgeon to acheive more density. One of the ways Dr. Feller acheived an 1899 yield was by taking a longer strip which extends further and higher in front of the ears. How this all works out time will tell. Best regards.

GratefulHead

[Tara]

Hello B-spot and others in this discussion,

My name is Tara and I am a consultant and surgical technician here at the Griffin Center in Atlanta; Dr. Edmond Griffin's office. I find it interesting to read these various posts. I have worked for Dr. Griffin in HT surgery for over 10 years and, yes, as with most HT surgeons, several years ago the thinking was "numerous smaller sessions" for higher yield of grafts and less trauma of vascularity, etc. For the past several years, Dr. Griffin has been performing sessions well over 2,000 to 3,000 grafts, numbering well over 5,000 to 6,000 follicles per session. Of course, at times, a smaller session is necessary if you are dealing with a patient with excessive scarring or compromised vascularity in any given area, but this is determined on a case to case basis, as each patient is evaluated as an individual, not with a "one-size-fits-all" approach. I invite anyone who is interested to take a look at our website, and please feel free to contact me directly, or ask any questions. Thanks so much for your time! ~Tara

[the B spot]

Thank You for your post Tara and Welcome!!!

 

I think the Doc in question was another Dr. Griffin in Pensylvania who currently performs out-dated hair transplants.

 

The basis of my recommendation is made with some knowledge of your practices. While I cannot and will not divulge the 2 prospective patients I have spoken with, each of these gentlemen were quoted 1800-2000 grafts and both were high on the NW scale (NW4+ and NW5, respectively) both of these gentlemen went on to have much larger session at other clinics. That was 6 months ago. Things seem to have changed.

 

You mentioned your website--- I suggest you update it to show patients that have had larger sessions at one time. The final result is very good, no question, but you are showing patients with 2 or 3 sessions with graft totals of 2500 or "one-pass" sessions of 2000 grafts.Other Coalition Dr.s are routinely doing one pass sessions of 4000+ grafts, using naturally occuring follicular units.

 

The real issue is that Dr. Griffin is a Coaliton Doc whom most know nothing about. I happen to know that he does fantastic work on African Americans suffering from traction alopecia, and that he performs ultra follicular unit grafting.

 

What I find irritating is that a post that potentially casts Dr. Griffin in a not so positive way, generates a response from the clinic.

 

We as members WANT and NEED current practices, current patients, updates as to the current technology, overall strategies, session sizes, etc.. etc... etc...!!!!!!

 

I think many of us are beginning to feel as if some Coalition Docs are simply happy to be here, which is why we keep referring everyone to 6-7 Docs, that WE know produce results that meet or exceed patient expectations EVERY time.

 

You will find that we here at HTN welcome information to compare and debate, as long as the Doc/Rep has an open mind to legitimate questions and concerns. For instance, 2-2500 graft sessions are no longer considered very large sessions on patients with extensive balding. Most here would consider 3500+ as a mega-session, simply because most patients with average donor (85-90fu's cm/2) require a .25-.5 cm increase in strip width (from 1cm), that is 27-30 cm in length, will usually yield 3000+ grafts easily.

 

In addition, most of the Docs that "we" consider the best charge 4.50 a graft for the first 2000 grafts then 2.50 per graft after. These same surgeons routinely perform sessions in excess of 3000 that provide a dramatic cosmetic improvement and is more cost effective for the patient.

 

Please, spend some time sending us updates from current patients that detail session size, strategy, (both now and in the future), with high resolution before and afters.

 

The more Doc's we have that we can honestly recommend, the better the community is for everyone.

 

Thank You for your time Tara, I hope that you can maintain a presence here so that we may be able to freely recommend Dr. Griffin to those not only in Atlanta, but patients from anywhere in the world.

 

Please note, this is not a negative post. This is an attempt to acquire more information in order to cast Dr. Griffin in a more POSITIVE light.

 

Feel free to PM me if you like.

 

Thanks

J

[Guest Cousin_It]

GH...

 

I would not worry about a donor scar, Dr.Feller is a pro at the new trico closure. I recently had 3700 grafts done by him. At this point of only 2 months I am hard pressed to find it even when looking for it. The hair have already begun growing throught the incision.

 

When I made the rounds to the docs in NY, they all gave me estimates of 2000-2500 for the initial transplant with some additional in a followup, but when I saw Dr.Feller he said there was no point in going through it twice. I am very glad I did.

 

Keep us up to date on your progress. I am sure the added density will complement your past surgeries.

[Tara]

Hi again B-Spot,

Thanks for your speedy reply. I do not at all consider your reply a negative one; I really appreciate the dialogue. You are completely right; a 2,000 to 2,5000 graft session is not necessarily considered a "mega-session" anymore. Let's keep in mind the actual number of follicles transplanted. Many patient's are so focused on the number of grafts transplanted, but 3,000 grafts containing only one or at most 2 hairs each may not make such a huge impact as, say 2,500 grafts (which are true follicluar units) containing anywhere from 1 to 3 hairs each, and occasionally even a four haired unit. I just feel that many people are so caught up in the number of GRAFTS per session, that they don't necessarily think "how many actual follicles will be moved?" It is very easy for an experienced tech to microscopically dissect a three-haired follicular unit into 3 separate single hairs to make "3 grafts" or to "up the numbers", instead of keeping it's integrity as one legitimate graft. Just food for thought.

There are so many incredible hair restoration surgeons, and for each one you speak with, there is a different technique and theory. I appreciate your time and consideration on the topic.

Take care! ~Tara

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello Tara and welcome to the forums,

 

I can't add too much from what B Spot already stated in the above post, but I'll add my two cents.

 

First off, I want to recommend that we take this conversation to a new thread so we don't trample on Mil's thread. This post is not about Dr. Griffin and I don't want to take away from her. So I kindly request that we take this conversation to a new thread.

 

Secondly...I do think it's good that you are here and you are welcome to share any opinion you would like. What B Spot said, however, is spot on...it's a little alarming to see the first post by someone be in defense of a doctor where a negative post was found. Ironically, it's not even the same Dr. Griffin that was mentioned...she was referring to the one in PA who is behind the times, not the coalition doc that you work for.

 

Anyway...that being said....I agree with B Spot...website updates would be helpful. Showing pictures from years ago where the a smaller number of grafts are transplanted per session is not showing what you say the doctor is capable of, which seemingly and agreeably, he is, as he is a member of the coalition. So I hope you'll take B Spot's advice and post some pictures and updated information on your website, and you are more than welcome to post them here.

 

Additionally, if you are going to continue posting here (and I hope you do), you must add a disclaimer on your signature stating your employement with Dr. Griffin.

 

Regarding follicular unit transplantation verses sub follicular unit transplantaion...I'm not sure exactly why you brought it up, but you make a valid point of course. But may I point out (since I don't know your intent to bring it up), that most the coalition docs (especially the 6-7 top doctors that are mentioned very freqently on this site) also do follicular unit grafting as opposed to sub follicular unit grafting. More food for thought .

 

Bill

[the B spot]

Thanks Tara---

 

Please keep in mind that when I refer to grafts I am speaking only of NATURALLY OCCURING follicular units, (1-4 hair grafts)and some 5-6 hair grafts (MUG's-- multi follicular grafts)

 

The practice of sub-follicular division is something we are against, UNLESS the clinic is up-front BEFORE transplantation that they are dividing grafts into 1's and 2's.

 

Most of us here feel that a small measure of sub-follicular grafting is appropriate in order to refine the hairline/temple regions and to "dense pack" the hairline/transition zone.

 

In order to combat the practice of which you speak, we have asked that patients/clinics quote graft and hair counts in order for us to appropriately judge how much hair has actually been moved.

 

The best clinics are using naturally occuring follicular units when describing their totals.

 

We have had this debate a few months ago, just as when we had the debate about actual density.

 

I am glad that you are present here on the forum. I hope that you will be able to provide us with some current patient photos and strategies. I hope that Dr. Griffin continues his excellent practice, and begins to incorporate sessions that exceed 3000 grafts to the correct candidates.

 

Thanks Again,

J

[GratefulHead]

Cousin_It,

Thanks for sharing your scar experience. I hope 2 months out from HT #3 I will be as fortunate. Everyone is different and at different mile markers on their hair improvement journey. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I certainly don't want to count my chickens before they're hatched! I agree will Bill that we shouldn't go too far down a rabbit trail on Mil's thread. Let's move any further discussion to the one I started for my HT #3 w/ Dr. Feller. Best regards.

GratefulHead

[Tara]

Dear Bill,

Thanks for your input. I do want to say that I am not responding to the comments about the Dr. Griffen in PA, so set that aside, please. It is fairly obvious we are not speaking of the same surgeon. I also think it is interesting that you feel I only posted due to a seemingly "negative" post about Dr. Griffin. I was not responding because I feel the post was negative; I was responding to B-Spot's comment that Dr. Griffin in Atlanta "likes to do several smaller sessions" simply because it is untrue, not "negative". I thought I might be able to set the record straight.

We are constantly in the process of updating our website, but as we are a small practice, we dedicate the entire day to our surgical patient (we only do one procedure each day, as we are not an "HT factory"), it takes time to constantly update images, etc. And, unfortuately, in our case the same techs who are in surgery all day, are the same people doing these updates. Unfortuately there is not unlimited time in the day to update and post. As we all know, the HT field is constantly evolving, and so the updates are constant! What I am saying is, there is no "one size fits all" in anything in life, and HT is no exception. Keep your minds open, folks!

Take care everyone, and Happy Holidays! ~Tara

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello Tara,

 

Ok, seemingly B Spot and I had the same idea, that you were posting about Dr. Griffin as a result of a negative comment about a different Dr. Griffin..as I quote from B Spot in response to you in his first thread to you:

 

"What I find irritating is that a post that potentially casts Dr. Griffin in a not so positive way, generates a response from the clinic."

 

Anyway...sorry I/we assumed that was your intention.

 

So going back to the original point...if indeed Dr. Griffin (in GA) does do larger sessions today, no matter how busy Dr. Griffin or his staff is, it's going to be very important to update the website or post information regarding this. What your clinic does, of course, is up to you and the doctor, BUT, keep in mind...though your opinion and thoughts are highly valued on this forum, we can't simply just take your word for it. I hope you understand that as well as a professional. My recommendation is, if your current staff can't handle doing surgeries AND updates to the website, hire additional people to do it for you. If your clinic is indeed as busy as you say, certainly you are bringing enough revenue in as a clinic to cover the costs and still have plenty left over. Don't get me wrong...I'm not comparing you to a hairmill corporation...but other top docs in the industry have staff that work on keeping their website updated AND posting their results on this site so perspective patients can see their amazing transformations.

 

I am certainly one (as is B Spot) to keep an open mind Tara...so don't worry about that. Certainly my post is not intended to be negative either...it's only to point out that providing hard facts and evidence of your current practice (of large megasessions in this case) is important if people are going to start recommending Dr. Griffin regularly. Obviously he has proven himself already being a member of the coalition....but as for regular posters like me...his name doesn't normally come to my mind when I think of doctor's to advise people to go to. The reason isn't because he's not qualified...but his name is rarely mentioned by anyone, nor are his results seen anywhere other than outdated results on your website. So...I'm not asking for you to prove to us that he's using the latest technologies (as if I didn't believe you), but for YOUR CLINIC'S SAKE, I'm asking that you do it so that Dr. Griffin is more well recognized.

 

Bill

[nikkop23]

jesus, all this pussyfooting about not being or wanting to seem negative--who cares. the fact of the matter, as B Spot pointed out, is that these clinics only get around to posting when they think they're being attacked in some way. if there's a record to set straight, let Tara set it straight with photos and evidence. but her response is a bit disingenuous since the timing of her post isn't coincidental. she only started posting when the clinic was called into question in some way.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Nikko,

 

B Spot and I thought the same thing, but as Tara pointed out (which may or may not be her intention...I can't read the truth in people's hearts, only what they say ), she posted in response not to the negative comment about Dr. Griffin in PA, but to B Spot's original mentioning of Dr. Griffin in GA (the one she works for). However, I do think it's odd that Tara posted for the first time when Dr. Griffin's name was mentioned. I have seen people do this before...people do a "find" for a specific doctor and then respond only to those posts.

 

But I agree with you wholeheartedly....I think updated pictures and new evidence of quality work would be helpful, since the website is outdated.

 

Bill