Ashwaganda & Tongkat Ali effects on hair loss

[NickJ]

23 minutes ago, 5BetaReductase said:

Not worth the risks imo. If something raises T to a significant degree (not sure if these do) then ultimately it’s not good for hair loss

Yeah the thing is that I like lifting and football (the US version) and raising T helps. Also high T is good for different aspects of life.

Crushing your T could have dramatical effects.

 

I would rather focus on limiting DHT 

[A Fue Good Men]

16 minutes ago, RTC said:

Good thread.

But ashwaghanda and tongkat would never raise test to superphysiological levels - I imagine thats the risk for hairloss, not something mild as these.

You’re probably right but why even take the risk? Even if it raises T by 50 or 100 ng/dL is it worth it? For minimal gains in the gym? He already had a transplant so he’s invested heavily into his hair. I understand the mood enhancing effects of ashwaghanda may make it worth it for him but if it were me I’d personally reconsider.

[NickJ]

23 minutes ago, RTC said:

Good thread.

But ashwaghanda and tongkat would never raise test to superphysiological levels - I imagine thats the risk for hairloss, not something mild as these.

Do you have experience with one of these?

What's your feedback?

[RTC]

17 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Do you have experience with one of these?

What's your feedback?

Unfortunately no, I tried two different brands of Tongkat recently, both garbage. And same with the one time I bought Ashwaghandha.

Going to try both now, NootropicsDepot for Tongkat, Nature's Way for Ashwaghandha.

I wish I just kept shaving bald and didn't bother with a HT tbh.

[NickJ]

5 minutes ago, RTC said:

Unfortunately no, I tried two different brands of Tongkat recently, both garbage. And same with the one time I bought Ashwaghandha.

Going to try both now, NootropicsDepot for Tongkat, Nature's Way for Ashwaghandha.

I wish I just kept shaving bald and didn't bother with a HT tbh.

haha that's a radical statement here, but if you're elite at lifting it makes sense. To me hair is too important so...

Why did you consider the Tongkat you tried garbage?

Nootropic Depot is a really solid brand, Nature's way don't know them

[RTC]

9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

haha that's a radical statement here, but if you're elite at lifting it makes sense. To me hair is too important so...

Why did you consider the Tongkat you tried garbage?

Nootropic Depot is a really solid brand, Nature's way don't know them

I'm not elite at lifting, but I now realise that the most important fight we have as men is holding onto Testosterone. And Testosterone and hair don't go well together (yes, I know it's DHT and not Test, but you get my point).

The Tongkat was Swanson's and German Pharma, zero effect. If it doesn't work now, I'm writing it off forever.

[general-etwan]

1 hour ago, Johnny129 said:

It was never disproven either

Doesn’t have to be disproven; a claim must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. 

Anyway, not worried about it. Personally I lost my hair because of genes. I take creatine off and on for lifting and athletics along with other pre-workout ingredients and occasional supplements. Any one of them could hypothetically contribute to hair loss; not significant for me to stress about and not significant enough to demonstrate scientifically. 

[Johnny129]

1 hour ago, general-etwan said:

Doesn’t have to be disproven; a claim must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. 

Anyway, not worried about it. Personally I lost my hair because of genes. I take creatine off and on for lifting and athletics along with other pre-workout ingredients and occasional supplements. Any one of them could hypothetically contribute to hair loss; not significant for me to stress about and not significant enough to demonstrate scientifically. 

If its proven beyond reasonable doubt then it can't be disproven. Then it has to go to appeals and the case gets long.

Anyway Im here talking about how creatine may be bad for your hair whilst Im looking at ordering some at the same time lol.

I like creatine, and you're right. It may contribute, it may not but its down to how you interpret it and how it works on you. If you take it and don't see anything happening with your hair then go on ahead with that and any other supplements that you wanna go with. If it wasn't so difficult to get genuine Anavar I may have given that a go!

[Johnny129]

3 hours ago, RTC said:

Unfortunately no, I tried two different brands of Tongkat recently, both garbage. And same with the one time I bought Ashwaghandha.

Going to try both now, NootropicsDepot for Tongkat, Nature's Way for Ashwaghandha.

I wish I just kept shaving bald and didn't bother with a HT tbh.

Its funny how similar it is finding good supplements as it is finding a good HT doctor in Turkey 😁

[NickJ]

19 minutes ago, Johnny129 said:

If its proven beyond reasonable doubt then it can't be disproven. Then it has to go to appeals and the case gets long.

Anyway Im here talking about how creatine may be bad for your hair whilst Im looking at ordering some at the same time lol.

I like creatine, and you're right. It may contribute, it may not but its down to how you interpret it and how it works on you. If you take it and don't see anything happening with your hair then go on ahead with that and any other supplements that you wanna go with. If it wasn't so difficult to get genuine Anavar I may have given that a go!

Just when you made me go deeper into my research and now I want to stop taking it haha

[Johnny129]

12 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Just when you made me go deeper into my research and now I want to stop taking it haha

😂😂 Research is always good. I research, make a decision, do some further research then my decision changes again. Its a continuous cycle. 

[sunsurfhair]

7 hours ago, RTC said:

I'm not elite at lifting, but I now realise that the most important fight we have as men is holding onto Testosterone. And Testosterone and hair don't go well together (yes, I know it's DHT and not Test, but you get my point).

The Tongkat was Swanson's and German Pharma, zero effect. If it doesn't work now, I'm writing it off forever.

I actually really agree with this statement. 

[sunsurfhair]

BTW - So many folks demonize DHT which is absurd. DHT plays a critical role in men's health. I can't stand the lunatic on YouTube who calls DHT a "trash hormone" which is just ludicrous. If you watch his latest videos, he looks like he's batsh&& insane. This is a really good writeup on the benefits of DHT. Don't get me wrong, there are some bad sides to too much DHT, but that's why it's everything in proper moderation. Unfortunately, Fin nearly castrated me, I'm lucky to have survived that onslaught, albeit with the unfortunate effect of needing TRT for life. I'm in my mid 30s now, so past 40ish, most men benefit from HRT / TRT, so thankfully it's an easier pill to swallow, so to speak. 

9 Potential Effects of DHT

 

1) Blood Sugar Control

DHT may help those with diabetes and high blood sugar by regulating glucose metabolism [4].

According to a study on mice, it may lower blood sugar levels and help with type 2 diabetes in males. Application of DHEA to rats increased levels of DHT and improved insulin-sensitivity, weight, and body fat [5, 6].

2) Memory

Men between the ages of 34 and 70 showed improvements in memory when treated with DHT skin patches [7].

3) Sexual Function

DHT can improve sexual ability in men regardless of factors like age and obesity. Along with testosterone, it’s necessary to maintain a healthy sex drive in men [8, 9].

DHT helped boys born with reduced penile function. It is the main hormone to prevent erectile dysfunction in rats [10, 11].

Women with lifelong sexual abstinence were more likely to have low levels of free DHT in the blood [12].

4) Heart Health

Higher levels of DHT were associated with lower amounts of fat deposits in the hearts of men with coronary artery disease (CAD) [13].

Lower levels of DHT and testosterone resulted in an increased risk for cardiovascular complications for men undergoing testosterone-lowering treatment for prostate cancer. Elderly men with higher levels of DHT have lower death rates from heart disease [14, 15].

5) Strength and Muscle Mass

In women, muscle DHT levels correlate with strength and power [16].

DHT appeared to increase muscle mass in postmenopausal rats [17].

6) Autoimmune Diseases

Men are 3-20 times less likely to get multiple sclerosis, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto’s, Graves’, Sjogren’s, and other autoimmune diseases. This may be due, in part, to male hormones having a protective effect against autoimmune conditions [18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23].

In animal models, DHT was useful in treating autoimmune conditions such as multiple sclerosis (MS), prostatitis, Graves‘ and uveitis by balancing the immune system. Specifically, it can lower T helper cells (Th1) that are higher in autoimmune diseases [24, 25, 26, 18, 27, 28].

7) Healthy Cognitive Function

Declining levels of DHT and other sex hormones in older men are associated with declining cognitive function [30].

😎 Anxiety & Depression

Testosterone’s anti-anxiety benefits were shown to be a result of the actions of DHT in the brain [31].

The drug finasteride, which lowers DHT levels in the blood, may induce symptoms of depression [32].

9) Bone Growth

DHT is vital for bone density – increased blood levels are associated with higher bone density in men [33].

Other

DHT relieved pain caused by diabetes in rats [34].

Negative Effects of High DHT

 

1) Male Pattern Baldness

A study found that a group of men with male pattern baldness had higher levels of DHT [35].

Higher levels of DHT were found in blood samples obtained from men with premature baldness [36].

2) Acne

DHT may trigger inflammatory acne [37].

3) Prostate Cancer

DHT is critical for the normal development of the prostate, but it can also contribute to benign prostate enlargement [38].

DHT can fuel prostate cancer even if testosterone production is stopped by removing the testicles [39, 40].

On the other hand, men with lower levels of DHT are more likely to get prostate cancer, have an advanced form of prostate cancer, and have a decreased survival rate for prostate cancer [41].

4) Depression In Women

In one study, women treated for major depression had higher levels of DHT and other male sex hormones [42].

5) Male-Like Hair Growth In Women

Finasteride, which inhibits DHT production, is effective in treating women suffering from male-like hair growth [43].

Edited September 1, 2022 by sunsurfhair

[sunsurfhair]

5 hours ago, Johnny129 said:

Its funny how similar it is finding good supplements as it is finding a good HT doctor in Turkey 😁

Johnny - On the whole, it has been found Creatine does not induce hairloss (i.e. does not increase, Total T, Free T, or DHT) and if it does, it's quite negligible. There are several studies that seem to all conclude this. EXERCISE CAN AND WILL - increase Total T, Free T, and of course as a result of T going up, DHT. Particularly HIIT and resistance training. This (in my opinion) is a good consequence of exercise. 

To date, 12 other studies have investigated the effects of creatine supplementation (i.e. doses ranging from 3-25 g/day for 6 days to 12 weeks) on testosterone. Two studies reported small, physiologically insignificant increases in total testosterone after six and seven days of supplementation [65, 66], while the remaining ten studies reported no change in testosterone concentrations. In five of these studies [67–71], free testosterone, which the body uses to produce DHT, was also measured and no increases were found.

Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/#:~:text=In summary%2C the current body,or causes hair loss%2Fbaldness.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by sunsurfhair

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, sunsurfhair said:

Johnny - On the whole, it has been found Creatine does not induce hairloss (i.e. does not increase, Total T, Free T, or DHT) and if it does, it's quite negligible. There are several studies that seem to all conclude this. EXERCISE CAN AND WILL - increase Total T, Free T, and of course as a result of T going up, DHT. Particularly HIIT and resistance training. This (in my opinion) is a good consequence of exercise. 

To date, 12 other studies have investigated the effects of creatine supplementation (i.e. doses ranging from 3-25 g/day for 6 days to 12 weeks) on testosterone. Two studies reported small, physiologically insignificant increases in total testosterone after six and seven days of supplementation [65, 66], while the remaining ten studies reported no change in testosterone concentrations. In five of these studies [67–71], free testosterone, which the body uses to produce DHT, was also measured and no increases were found.

Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/#:~:text=In summary%2C the current body,or causes hair loss%2Fbaldness.

 

So a lot of people saying "creatine destroyed my hair" probably are looking back trying to find a justification for their hair loss?

[mafpe]

19 minutes ago, NickJ said:

So a lot of people saying "creatine destroyed my hair" probably are looking back trying to find a justification for their hair loss?

creatine is one of, if not the most studied supplement for bodybuilding, and even now, there is no "significant side effect" or any that is very much worth scrutiny. even if you "overdose" creatine, most likely result is having bowel problem for a short while. meanwhile caffeine is considered dangerous when overdosed by a huge margin, and some stupid trend started some years ago to take so much that it's a medical risk 🤦‍♂️ (i actually ODed on creatine since i asked soemone to make me a shake, and she... put equal amount of whey and creatine, one half big whey scoop each. the worst that came from it is my own fear of what's gonna happen to me, while the bowel movement isn't that much of a problem.)

like how sometime we don't know exactly why there could be problem of ED / baldness when it happened "suddenly", we tend to blame something. it's easier to have something to blame, compared to being headless of the cause, or blame ourselves.

[NickJ]

23 minutes ago, mafpe said:

creatine is one of, if not the most studied supplement for bodybuilding, and even now, there is no "significant side effect" or any that is very much worth scrutiny. even if you "overdose" creatine, most likely result is having bowel problem for a short while. meanwhile caffeine is considered dangerous when overdosed by a huge margin, and some stupid trend started some years ago to take so much that it's a medical risk 🤦‍♂️ (i actually ODed on creatine since i asked soemone to make me a shake, and she... put equal amount of whey and creatine, one half big whey scoop each. the worst that came from it is my own fear of what's gonna happen to me, while the bowel movement isn't that much of a problem.)

like how sometime we don't know exactly why there could be problem of ED / baldness when it happened "suddenly", we tend to blame something. it's easier to have something to blame, compared to being headless of the cause, or blame ourselves.

Yeah but even here if you put creatine in the search bar a lot of people will say in their HT story "creatine definitely made things worse"

[mafpe]

9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Yeah but even here if you put creatine in the search bar a lot of people will say in their HT story "creatine definitely made things worse"

yes but it's also speculation. i might be wrong, but if the said person is looking into creatine, most likely they are also taking at least whey with them, and is starting to get serious about bodybuilding. working out alone will increase your T level, and people who workout supposedly have higher T than those who doesn't. if so, then what made things worse, we can't really tell.

most research i found are "may correlates to higher DHT", "inconclusive", "does not mean that it raise DHT", etc. so far, i've never met someone who said to my face "it's definitely the creatine that makes me balder, not any other supplement or factor". i do hear alot of people that say working out might = possibly balder, as somehow with age as well, many in the gym accelerates their baldness... but these are small sample, non research too. for me i chalk it to the T level factor.

[GoliGoliGoli]

There was a HT surgeon on here a month or two ago saying creatine could cause increased hair loss. If you search around you can probably find the posts. Frankly anything that could increase DHT could potentially increase hair loss. 

 

I will say, I was supplementing with DHEA for awhile and it did seem to correlate with some thinning of my hair. Could have been due to a number of factors but the timing does seem to line up.

[sunsurfhair]

2 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

There was a HT surgeon on here a month or two ago saying creatine could cause increased hair loss. If you search around you can probably find the posts. Frankly anything that could increase DHT could potentially increase hair loss. 

 

I will say, I was supplementing with DHEA for awhile and it did seem to correlate with some thinning of my hair. Could have been due to a number of factors but the timing does seem to line up.

DHEA is well known to cause hair loss. That’s a powerful adrenal hormone which is a precursor to Test. A lot more science behind DHEA supplementation inducing hair loss then Creatine. 

[sunsurfhair]

12 hours ago, mafpe said:

yes but it's also speculation. i might be wrong, but if the said person is looking into creatine, most likely they are also taking at least whey with them, and is starting to get serious about bodybuilding. working out alone will increase your T level, and people who workout supposedly have higher T than those who doesn't. if so, then what made things worse, we can't really tell.

most research i found are "may correlates to higher DHT", "inconclusive", "does not mean that it raise DHT", etc. so far, i've never met someone who said to my face "it's definitely the creatine that makes me balder, not any other supplement or factor". i do hear alot of people that say working out might = possibly balder, as somehow with age as well, many in the gym accelerates their baldness... but these are small sample, non research too. for me i chalk it to the T level factor.

Speculation based on the research based evidence studies and the many millions of men using Creatine. Creatine is even utilized in illness to help rebuild muscle. I’ve used it and it never destroyed my hair. I use it in safe moderation (lower dosing) as we should do with everything. 

[sunsurfhair]

13 hours ago, NickJ said:

So a lot of people saying "creatine destroyed my hair" probably are looking back trying to find a justification for their hair loss?

Honestly I would think so (based on the research)

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, sunsurfhair said:

Speculation based on the research based evidence studies and the many millions of men using Creatine. Creatine is even utilized in illness to help rebuild muscle. I’ve used it and it never destroyed my hair. I use it in safe moderation (lower dosing) as we should do with everything. 

Thanks for the input I used it but I wasn't taking fin and between my 22 & 25 my MPB progressed like you can expect when you are norwood 2 at 22/23 and I wouldn't put the responsibility of it on Creatine

 

[NickJ]

Update guys,

I've dropped Creatine, I won't take Tongkat but I found that Shilajit didn't raise DHT so I will use that

I will also give a shot at Turkesterone without hoping too much

[Johnny129]

Good luck with the Turk, let us know how you get on.

Out of curiosity how comes you decided to drop the creatine?