My experience with Saw Palmetto + Stinging Nettle Root

[EricEdwards]

6 hours ago, BaldBobby said:

Not even finasteride may maintain transplanted hair...

"It has been found that the miniaturization does affect the occipital donor hair, and this may be the cause of reduction in the density of the transplanted hairs. Usage of minoxidil and finasteride and their influence in the longevity of the hair follicles in our study were not statistically significant."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8061642/

That's interesting and quite sobering. The only alternative looking term strategy is to factor in touch up surgery or not get surgery, at all it seems. 

[Niko]

9 hours ago, EricEdwards said:

I would imagine as a general rule of time, when dealing with natural remedies, the results may not be as great, and may take longer to achieve but nonetheless on the whole, the side effects may be significantly less than the medical interventions. I booked in for Eugenix in India in July and looking forward to the journey. What was once a dream for almost 20 years is now becoming reality.

It takes a lot longer than medication and almost noone is that consistent.

 I still think stress is the main factor that makes hairs more susceptible to DHT, it speeds up the process tenfold, it's always some stressful event or trauma that kickstarts the whole process.

Best of luck with the transplant! What opted you to go for India instead of let's say Spain where I've seen a lot of people post that the best surgeons are located?

I wanted to opt for doctor De Freitas in Spain when I have the money, but I'm always a little unsure as I'm a diffuse thinner and I don't know if they can do a good job as well without damaging the existing follicles. I don't need a lot of work, just a bit of a touchup but still.

[EricEdwards]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:33 AM, Niko said:

I wanted to share my short story here. About 2 years ago at age 22 my first signs of hair loss had shown, I experienced hair thinning on my entire head and some loss, though minimal, mostly major miniaturization, but it was noticeable.

After much research and thought I decided to risk it and give Saw Palmetto 550 mg a chance before trying anything more serious (like fin/min), to see how I would react. I've also linked some cropped pictures of laboratory test results below that were taken.

The picture with the highest DHT of almost 3300 PG/ML was in September of 2020, up to this point I was only experimenting with natural topical solutions, and although for example the Jamaican castor oil I was using helped to prevent further loss, it didn't help with the hair density so I wanted to try something else.

The second picture of 1890 PG/ML was after 2 months of Saw Palmetto 550mg x2 a day, started using it in Jan/Feb of this year and did the lab result in March, and the third lab test is from the month of May, after introducing Stinging Nettle Root tea once a day in tandem with Saw Palmetto, from March to May, it completely stabilized and was within normal range. Just for experimental purposes I stopped using both SP/SNR for about a month and a half and wouldn't you know it, DHT levels started rising again, who'd have thought?  

I quickly got back on the regime again and it stabilized.

Regarding Saw Palmetto I only had "side effects" for the first few days where erections were very weak, after that everything went back to normal and I haven't experienced any side effects, neither from SP nor Stinging Nettle Root. 

People did comment that they see a big difference from a couple of months and now regarding my hair, though I'm not satisfied yet. Though I can definitely see a lot less hairs fall out now when I stroke through my hair, It used to be 10-15, now it's 2-5 hairs, so I legit think it's worth a try before going on any meds, but I think it will take a long time to see improvement, still, I halted all further hair loss.

In your opinion, would reducing overall testosterone levels lead to improvements in male pattern baldness?

I've found an interesting article which highlights herbal supplements that can do this:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-that-lower-testosterone#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

I welcome your thoughts.

[Niko]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:11 AM, EricEdwards said:

In your opinion, would reducing overall testosterone levels lead to improvements in male pattern baldness?

I've found an interesting article which highlights herbal supplements that can do this:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-that-lower-testosterone#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

I welcome your thoughts.

I'd recommend not to mess with testosterone levels at all, I've read hair loss can also occur from even low levels of test, it's extremely important to have optimal levels to be healthy since it is responsible for many bodily functions and not just our physical, but our mental wellbeing.

By all accounts it's said DHT should be about 10% of total test levels, but this is never the case in male pattern baldness patients, in fact it's a lot more drastic and there's never any explanation as to why.

Stress, lack of sleep and insulin resistance are the main culprits of excessive amounts of DHT, especially the insulin one, this is something I can confirm myself.

 

[EricEdwards]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:06 PM, Niko said:

I just made stinging nettle root tea. 2-3 spoons of tea into cold water then let it come to a boil, it starts rising almost like when you're making cooking dough. Let it cool off and sit for about 30 minutes, then filter it and i just poured a part of the tea into a spray bottle, as for the rosemary part i bought an essential oil and I poured it into the spray, mixing it with the tea, about 10 drops in a 30 ml bottle, essential oils can be strong so they don't require a lot.

I use it 2-3 times per day I just spray my hair with it, and that should be it.

Happy holidays ^^

Research suggests that Rosemary oil is just as effective as Minoxidil as a topical solution. 

To apply: 

"After mixing about 5 drops of rosemary essential oil with a teaspoon of carrier oil (like jojoba oil or coconut oil), massage evenly into your scalp after bath or shower. Rinsing out the oil afterward is optional — though if you do rinse, let the oil sit on your scalp for at least 5 to 10 minutes beforehand."

https://www.healthline.com/health/rosemary-oil-for-hair

 

[EricEdwards]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:06 PM, Niko said:

I just made stinging nettle root tea. 2-3 spoons of tea into cold water then let it come to a boil, it starts rising almost like when you're making cooking dough. Let it cool off and sit for about 30 minutes, then filter it and i just poured a part of the tea into a spray bottle, as for the rosemary part i bought an essential oil and I poured it into the spray, mixing it with the tea, about 10 drops in a 30 ml bottle, essential oils can be strong so they don't require a lot.

I use it 2-3 times per day I just spray my hair with it, and that should be it.

Happy holidays ^^

I'm using rosemary oil in a dropper bottle (3% concentration mix) with a carrier oil (almond oil). Depending on the size of the dropper bottle, I use one of the following:

➢Mix 19 Rosemary oil drops to 30ml carrier oil

➢Mix 25 Rosemary oil drops to 40ml carrier oil

➢Mix 30 Rosemary oil drops to 50ml carrier oil

➢Mix 60 Rosemary oil drops to 100ml carrier oil

➢Alternatively, mix 10 to 15 drops of rosemary oil with around 750ml of boiling water.

I'm also taking daily dose of the following:

➤A tablespoon of pumpkin seed oil

➤A tablespoon of flaxseed oil

➤A 10ml of stinging nettle syrup 

It's over a month now and I am noticing dying hair follicles regrow, especially around my crown area. Overall, I've noticed my hair feeling stronger. 

I'm 46 years oil, have Norwood grade 5/6 and have been losing hair since my early 20's.

Reference:

https://greenmedinfo.com/blog/getting-root-hair-loss

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-that-lower-testosterone#TOC_TITLE_HDR_6

This post also. Thanks Niko!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by EricEdwards

[EricEdwards]

On 1/2/2023 at 10:56 AM, EricEdwards said:

I've been reflecting on your scientific results and it seems to be an excellent tentative piece of research. It seems there's not a lot of research or data about Saw Palmetto as an alternative to finasteride in hair preservation.

Well it's finally happening. Having being inspired by your initial citizen research, I've been taking pumpkin seed oil and stinging nettle syrup on a daily basis for the past several months. I'm going to get my testosterone and DHT levels tested today. Here in Ireland I can get the DHT test for 120 euros. I'm looking forward to the results.

[EricEdwards]

On 2/3/2022 at 8:21 PM, SLA said:

Interesting @Niko- How many mg of stinging nettle root was in your tea?

Also, from where did you get your tests done and what was the cost? Is it something you can mail away for and do in your home?

Thanks!

 

I undertook the DHT test recently. I understand two companies provide this in Ireland, Eurofins and Randox. Mine was via Eurofins €120. Look up "private blood test" in your country.

[EricEdwards]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:06 PM, arthurSam said:

You cannot get true value of your dht just by one blood test because you have to make multiple blood test a day (5-6) to get mean. DHT / T varie a lot along a day so you cannot have exact value... So your value are biased.

Saw palmetto do not decrease DHT in blood, only on prostate, so it is not effective to reduce hair loss.

Following your post, I've done a bit of further research and it seems that you are correct. Blood levels of DHT fluctuate throughout a 24-hour period.

Nonetheless, I am intrigued by the fact that his experiment showed an impact on DHT levels based on supplement intake. Whilst it is just one person and one blood test per day, one cannot disregard this empirical observation.

It's also important to note that pharmaceutical companies do not have an interest in funding research in such natural remedies as it has no financial benefit for them. Hence, the lack of research, in my opinion. 

[EricEdwards]

On 3/31/2023 at 6:25 AM, EricEdwards said:

I got a blood test about two months ago and requested that my DHT level be checked. My general practitioner stated she was unsure if I could get that test but a testosterone test was available. She highlighted her concerns about reducing testosterone. I've been taking 350mg Saw Palmetto for the past few weeks (albeit irregularly). I'm not sure if the testosterone levels are irrelevant?

I have stopped taking saw palmetto as I had side effects. Most notably, significant constipation. I am currently taking a tablespoon of stinging natural syrup and a tablespoon of pumpkin seed oil per day for the past several months. I have noticed that my libido has edged off somewhat but not to the level of reducing my performance, so to speak. In fact, I believe this is a good thing as I did have an over exuberance in that regard which had somewhat impacted on my social interaction with the opposite sex. I have taken a DHT blood test recently to ascertain if my levels are similar to Nico's result. I will post the results as soon as I get them.

Edited December 10, 2023 by EricEdwards
Spelling mistake

[Niko]

1 hour ago, EricEdwards said:

I have stopped taking saw palmetto as I had side effects. Most notably, significant constipation. I am currently taking a tablespoon of stinging natural syrup and a tablespoon of pumpkin seed oil per day for the past several months. I have noticed that my libido has edged off somewhat but not to the level of reducing my performance, so to speak. In fact, I believe this is a good thing as I did have an over exuberance in that regard which had somewhat impacted on my social interaction with the opposite sex. I have taken a DHT blood test recently to ascertain if my levels are similar to Nico's result. I will post the results as soon as I get them.

I'm eager to hear your results, sad to hear saw palmetto wasn't good for you, I luckily didn't have any sides, but you can do without, stinging nettle root is powerful enough. I don't know your diet maybe you're missing fiber, if you ever re-start saw palmetto, don't take it on an empty stomach, and i take it with a lot of water so i can mix it, i can't swallow capsules so I open them.  I'm still okay hair wise, 0 recession for 3 years now almost, the only problem i have is seborrheic dermatitis, unless I eat clean, it tends to be very troublesome. 

Regarding sexual performance, when my DHT was highest, my semen volume was extremely high when doing you know what, and it was very dense, ever since I normalized DHT semen is a lot more watery, which is how it should be, so at this point I know what to look out for if DHT spikes, but it hasn't spiked so far, it has no reason to anymore.

The only bad thing is that although some of my density has returned over these 3 years, it's still nowhere near my original hair density, when I grow out my hair for 2-3 months it's unnoticable, but when it's short, it's still diffuse, so I guess it's going to stay in that state unless I do something more drastic.

I've been wanting to do a nofap 90 day reset to see if this will affect density, but that's going to take a while.

 

 

 

 

[EricEdwards]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:20 PM, Niko said:

I'm eager to hear your results, sad to hear saw palmetto wasn't good for you, I luckily didn't have any sides, but you can do without, stinging nettle root is powerful enough. I don't know your diet maybe you're missing fiber, if you ever re-start saw palmetto, don't take it on an empty stomach, and i take it with a lot of water so i can mix it, i can't swallow capsules so I open them.  I'm still okay hair wise, 0 recession for 3 years now almost, the only problem i have is seborrheic dermatitis, unless I eat clean, it tends to be very troublesome. 

Regarding sexual performance, when my DHT was highest, my semen volume was extremely high when doing you know what, and it was very dense, ever since I normalized DHT semen is a lot more watery, which is how it should be, so at this point I know what to look out for if DHT spikes, but it hasn't spiked so far, it has no reason to anymore.

The only bad thing is that although some of my density has returned over these 3 years, it's still nowhere near my original hair density, when I grow out my hair for 2-3 months it's unnoticable, but when it's short, it's still diffuse, so I guess it's going to stay in that state unless I do something more drastic.

I've been wanting to do a nofap 90 day reset to see if this will affect density, but that's going to take a while.

 

 

 

 

Regarding saw palmetto, I may not take this again as I understand there are other potential side effects following long term use. My diet is relatively good with adequate amount of fibre. I eat a lot of fruit and veg and tend to avoid junk food.

It's interesting you mentioned about the semen being very dense, as you attributed to high testosterone levels. My girlfriend did comment one time, that mine was very thick in comparison to all of her previous partners who had a more "watery" viscosity. One could deduce from this that all of her previous lovers had full mops of hair! 

I looking forward with interest the results of the DHT test. I'm also going to consider purchasing 1.5 mm of micro needle roller at the end of the month. It will be my new year's resolution to try it for 6 months. 

[BaldDude]

5 minutes ago, EricEdwards said:

Regarding saw palmetto, I may not take this again as I understand there are other potential side effects following long term use. My diet is relatively good with adequate amount of fibre. I eat a lot of fruit and veg and tend to avoid junk food.

It's interesting you mentioned about the semen being very dense, as you attributed to high testosterone levels. My girlfriend did comment one time, that mine was very thick in comparison to all of her previous partners who had a more "watery" viscosity. One could deduce from this that all of her previous lovers had full mops of hair! 

I looking forward with interest the results of the DHT test. I'm also going to consider purchasing 1.5 mm of micro needle roller at the end of the month. It will be my new year's resolution to try it for 6 months. 

where did you hear of potential long-term side effects?

[EricEdwards]

1 hour ago, BaldDude said:

where did you hear of potential long-term side effects?

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-971/saw-palmetto

 

"Saw palmetto is likely safe when used for up to 3 years."

Edited December 11, 2023 by EricEdwards

[BaldDude]

1 minute ago, EricEdwards said:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-971/saw-palmetto

I don't see anything about long-term effects.  I have read reports of users on reddit saying they've gotten similar side effects as finasteride (loss of libido, ED etc.).  Saw palmetto is very weak compared to finasteride tho so I expect this is very rare.

[EricEdwards]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:53 PM, RTC said:

Optimale

But they don't offer DHT testing

Eurofins provide DHT testing in Ireland so I imagine they may also do this in the UK

[EricEdwards]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:15 PM, BaldDude said:

I don't see anything about long-term effects.  I have read reports of users on reddit saying they've gotten similar side effects as finasteride (loss of libido, ED etc.).  Saw palmetto is very weak compared to finasteride tho so I expect this is very rare.

"Saw palmetto is likely safe when used for up to 3 years."

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-971/saw-palmetto

[BackFromTheBrink]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:11 PM, EricEdwards said:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-971/saw-palmetto

 

"Saw palmetto is likely safe when used for up to 3 years."

Doesn’t that just mean they’ve studied the effects for that long. The same article says that the long term effects are unknown.

[EricEdwards]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:27 AM, BackFromTheBrink said:

Doesn’t that just mean they’ve studied the effects for that long. The same article says that the long term effects are unknown.

Well, you have a point. 

[EricEdwards]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:33 AM, Niko said:

I wanted to share my short story here. About 2 years ago at age 22 my first signs of hair loss had shown, I experienced hair thinning on my entire head and some loss, though minimal, mostly major miniaturization, but it was noticeable.

After much research and thought I decided to risk it and give Saw Palmetto 550 mg a chance before trying anything more serious (like fin/min), to see how I would react. I've also linked some cropped pictures of laboratory test results below that were taken.

The picture with the highest DHT of almost 3300 PG/ML was in September of 2020, up to this point I was only experimenting with natural topical solutions, and although for example the Jamaican castor oil I was using helped to prevent further loss, it didn't help with the hair density so I wanted to try something else.

The second picture of 1890 PG/ML was after 2 months of Saw Palmetto 550mg x2 a day, started using it in Jan/Feb of this year and did the lab result in March, and the third lab test is from the month of May, after introducing Stinging Nettle Root tea once a day in tandem with Saw Palmetto, from March to May, it completely stabilized and was within normal range. Just for experimental purposes I stopped using both SP/SNR for about a month and a half and wouldn't you know it, DHT levels started rising again, who'd have thought?  

I quickly got back on the regime again and it stabilized.

Regarding Saw Palmetto I only had "side effects" for the first few days where erections were very weak, after that everything went back to normal and I haven't experienced any side effects, neither from SP nor Stinging Nettle Root. 

People did comment that they see a big difference from a couple of months and now regarding my hair, though I'm not satisfied yet. Though I can definitely see a lot less hairs fall out now when I stroke through my hair, It used to be 10-15, now it's 2-5 hairs, so I legit think it's worth a try before going on any meds, but I think it will take a long time to see improvement, still, I halted all further hair loss.

I finally received the results of my dihydrotestosterone test. This was my first test which followed six months taking organic pumpkin seed oil and stinging nettle oil. I will attempt to compare, as best I can, the results of Niko with my results in relation to the impact of natural remedies on dihydrotestosterone levels. Whilst I did not take the test prior to taking the natural supplements, nonetheless, I will compare the result with Niko who had taken the test both before and after his natural supplements.

My Profile
Age: 47
Baldness type: Norwood grade 5/6

Supplements taken:

➤20 mL of organic stinging nettle (Salus brand) daily for six months

➤1 tablespoon of organic pumpkin seed oil daily for over six months.

Niko Results:
In order to give a comparison of results. I have attempted, as best I could, to convert Niko's units from pg/ml into mnol/L. I undertook this conversion using ChatGPT and Google Bard.

Niko Test 1: Without supplements - dihydrotestosterone level -3299.7 pg/ml = 11.36 mnol/L

Niko Test 2: With Stinging Nettle tea and Saw Palmetto supplements - dihydrotestosterone level - 1890.8 pg/ml = 6.51 mnol/L

Niko Test 3: With Stinging Nettle tea and Saw Palmetto supplements - dihydrotestosterone level - 614.4 pg/ml = 2.12 mnol/L

My Results:
Eric's Test: With 20 mL of organic stinging nettle tea and 1 tablespoon of organic pumpkin seed oil daily - dihydrotestosterone level 1.88 mnol/L

Eric Edwards testosterone test 30.47

An interesting observation is that my testosterone level is on the upper limit of normality. This is intriguing given that I'm a middle-aged man. I was informed by my hair transplant specialist that my testosterone levels would "normalise". This seems not to be the case.

 

Observations:
As you can see from the above test, my dihydrotestosterone level is within the same parameters as Niko's result. In fact, it appears to be somewhat better lower at 1.88. Nonetheless, this is predicated by the conversion of units. Although I have noticed a decline in my libido somewhat, I have yet to see any observational impact on my male pattern baldness. Also, from looking at the result depicted above, the lower limit and upper limit of dihydrotestosterone is between 0.33 - 3.01 nmol/L for males. This is based on my interpretation of the "units"and may mean that my dihydrotestosterone result is within the the normal range. However, I am open to correction on this.

My Goal

My goal is to stabilise my male pattern baldness prior to a planned hair restoration. I shall continue to take the supplements for the next several months to ascertain if this is the case. 

Finasteride Impact
I was intrigued to know what impact finasteride would have on the dihydrotestosterone levels. Based on inputs into Google Bard, I received the following results in regards to the impact of finasteride on dihydrotestosterone levels [1],[2][3],[4]:

Dosage       Typical DHT Level (nmol/L)
1 mg daily             0.27-0.57

It is my understanding that 1 mg of finasteride, taken daily, is the standard prescribed daily dosage for the treatment of male pattern baldness and that there is no inherent decrease in DHT levels with an increase in finasteride intake above 1mg.

Conclusions:
I acknowledge that my experiment of sorts, could not be considered in any way based on sound experimentation principles. Nonetheless, the rough results indicate that natural supplements of stinging nettle and pumpkin seed oil may have a positive impact on reducing dihydrotestosterone levels, in my opinion. Based on my experience, I have yet to see this transferring into a positive impact on reversing my male pattern baldness. I have been using the said supplements for the past six months and there is no improvement in my male pattern baldness. I have noticed that my hair follicles are somewhat more stronger to touch but this is negligible. I have noticed a somewhat slight reduction in my libido. My core goal is to have the intervention maintain my current hair prior to undertaking hair restoration surgery. I will continue to take the supplements for the next several months and observe my male pattern baldness. If my male pattern baldness does not stabilise, I may consider using finasteride 1 mg per day. 

References

[1] National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK): https://www.healthline.com/health/propecia

[2] Mayo Clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs./finasteride./drg-20063819?p=1

[3] U.S. National Library of Medicine (PubMed): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK513329/

[4] The Endocrine Society: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22563890/

Edited December 21, 2023 by EricEdwards
Spelling and grammar

[Niko]

Very well done Eric,

I was eagerly awaiting to see your results and I'm happy to see that mine and yours are very close now.

Granted, I'm around NW 1.5, I've stopped it on time, I can't guarantee regrowth to anyone, but completely stopping hair loss I think that's more than a guarantee at this point, and my hairs did thicken a bit compared to 3 years ago, the only exception would be if someone was so susceptible to DHT that hair loss occurs at even normal levels, but that's what they mean when they say genetic hair loss, they mean those types of cases.

The next step is to figure out how to make hair follicles grow again, I'll be trying dermaneedles of 2mm-2.5mm once a week, I've been doing about 1.5-2mm for a long time now once a week, and i'll be adding rosemary oil and mint right after the puncturing (and continuing with everyday applicatons of oils), to see if it makes any difference once it breaches the bloodstream.

I hope this thread was helpful to anyone reading, regrowing your hairs is hard but stopping hair loss is DEFINITELY possible without taking fin/dut.

[BackFromTheBrink]

I’m confused. Why would taking 5 times higher dose of finasteride result in higher dht levels?

[BaldDude]

Very interesting. Does a lower serum DHT always lead to a lower scalp DHT?

[EricEdwards]

1 hour ago, BaldDude said:

Very interesting. Does a lower serum DHT always lead to a lower scalp DHT?

Yes interesting observation. Apparently, taking greater than 1 mg of finasteride does not lead to an inherent increase in reducing DHT levels. Hence the 5 mg of finasteride phenomenon as outlined in my citizen research. I am open to correction however.

[EricEdwards]

19 minutes ago, EricEdwards said:

Yes interesting observation. Apparently, taking greater than 1 mg of finasteride does not lead to an inherent increase in reducing DHT levels. Hence the 5 mg of finasteride phenomenon as outlined in my citizen research. I am open to correction however.

At 4:38 in following video, two medical practitioners outline the benefit of 1 mg of finasteride as opposed to anything greater:

https://youtu.be/htBPxLOC47I?si=5h2-lNSxWHUtzmP9

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by EricEdwards