Hair Loss - A Disease of Civilization?

[Fante]

Hi all,

 

I'm well aware of the root causes of mpb (genetics, testosterone, DHT), and the western medicine used to treat it (propecia, duasteride), but what is far more interesting to me are the triggers behind the onset of mpb.

 

Some people get it when they're 14, others when they're 60. What causes the switch to 'flip' so to speak? The new field of epigenetics makes the case that our lifestyle and diet can determine which of our genes are expressed. Perhaps mpb is 'activated' in this way? If so, can it also be similarly 'turned off'?

 

Have you ever stopped to think about all the junk your body is ingesting everyday? I mean everything from processed food, plastic packaging, polluted air, to even the water in our taps. All these poisons must be taking a toll on our bodies. I firmly believe that in many cases mpb presents itself earlier than what is natural because of these factors I have just mentioned.

 

If you're interested here's a couple of sites that go into what I'm talking about a bit. One is the Carnivore Health Weblog. It's about a young man (age 25) that stopped his mpb completely by changing to a diet of grass fed beef and water. The Carnivore Health Weblog - Animal-Based Nutrition For Hair & Health

 

Another site is 180 degree health. The site owner experienced severe hair loss on a vegetarian diet, then switched to a meat heavy diet that excluded sugar, white flour, and all processed food, and saw his hairloss stop completely. 180 Degree Health

 

What are your thoughts? I don't mean to denigrate propecia or minoxidil, I just want start a discussion about lifestyle and its profound effects on our bodies.

[gmonasco]

I firmly believe that in many cases mpb presents itself earlier than what is natural because of these factors I have just mentioned.

 

If that were the case, then one should expect to see an increased incidence of MPB and/or a progressively earlier onset age of MPB across time. As far as I know, no data demonstrates this to be true.

 

The site owner experienced severe hair loss on a vegetarian diet, then switched to a meat heavy diet that excluded sugar, white flour, and all processed food, and saw his hairloss stop completely

 

In the absence of controlled studies, all such anecdotal reports are simply versions of confirmation bias, akin to maintaining that an absence of tigers demonstrates that snapping one's fingers is an effective method of keeping them away.

[Swimmy]

Hi all,

 

I'm well aware of the root causes of mpb (genetics, testosterone, DHT), and the western medicine used to treat it (propecia, duasteride), but what is far more interesting to me are the triggers behind the onset of mpb.

 

Some people get it when they're 14, others when they're 60. What causes the switch to 'flip' so to speak? The new field of epigenetics makes the case that our lifestyle and diet can determine which of our genes are expressed. Perhaps mpb is 'activated' in this way? If so, can it also be similarly 'turned off'?

 

Have you ever stopped to think about all the junk your body is ingesting everyday? I mean everything from processed food, plastic packaging, polluted air, to even the water in our taps. All these poisons must be taking a toll on our bodies. I firmly believe that in many cases mpb presents itself earlier than what is natural because of these factors I have just mentioned.

 

If you're interested here's a couple of sites that go into what I'm talking about a bit. One is the Carnivore Health Weblog. It's about a young man (age 25) that stopped his mpb completely by changing to a diet of grass fed beef and water. The Carnivore Health Weblog - Animal-Based Nutrition For Hair & Health

 

Another site is 180 degree health. The site owner experienced severe hair loss on a vegetarian diet, then switched to a meat heavy diet that excluded sugar, white flour, and all processed food, and saw his hairloss stop completely. 180 Degree Health

 

What are your thoughts? I don't mean to denigrate propecia or minoxidil, I just want start a discussion about lifestyle and its profound effects on our bodies.

 

There's a forum called immortalhair that touches thoroughly on this topic and has the research to back up these claims..Yes diet plays a big part in MPB if people want to believe it or not on this forum. The perfect diet can eliminate MPB. But that's easier said than done. Our diet can have a major impact on our genetic predisposition to MPB. Foods can increase inflammation, oxidative stress, free radicals, insulin levels, increase dht or estrogen in the body. The right foods can also do the opposite.

 

 

I mentioned this before but Japan is the healthiest nation in the world and also experiences the lowest MPB rate.. What is funny is that MPB increased in their country though after WW2 when the western diet was introduced to them.

 

The western diet is definitely one of the worst things for those vulnerable to MPB..Even cleaning up your diet a little would help.

[Davis]

There's a forum called immortalhair that touches thoroughly on this topic and has the research to back up these claims..Yes diet plays a big part in MPB if people want to believe it or not on this forum. The perfect diet can eliminate MPB. But that's easier said than done. Our diet can have a major impact on our genetic predisposition to MPB. Foods can increase inflammation, oxidative stress, free radicals, insulin levels, increase dht or estrogen in the body. The right foods can also do the opposite.

 

 

I mentioned this before but Japan is the healthiest nation in the world and also experiences the lowest MPB rate.. What is funny is that MPB increased in their country though after WW2 when the western diet was introduced to them.

 

The western diet is definitely one of the worst things for those vulnerable to MPB..Even cleaning up your diet a little would help.

 

I am a believer that all the poisons we are exposed ot daily between the air, food water... is an accelerant in our mpb. Meaning we were still destined for it, only at a later time...

That being said, once the damage is done, I do not believe changing a diet will stop mpb, because it was going to happen anyway, it just happened a lot sooner...

With regard to claims that baldness has always been around, yes it has however much later in peoples lives.

 

Heck look at old movies of people in the 40's, 50's, 60's... Not that many people were going bald under the age of 30... today I see a significant percentge of people under 30 suffering from mpb to some degree

[kathie47]

Heck look at old movies of people in the 40's, 50's, 60's... Not that many people were going bald under the age of 30... today I see a significant percentge of people under 30 suffering from mpb to some degree

 

I'm not sure the old movies is a gauge of the total populace; but I definitely think there's merit to the diet-mpb connection, because of insulin and decreased aerobic exercise.

[Taken4Granted]

i don't think this subject will ever exit the realm of speculation. I don't believe we are wholly less healthy than we were 5000 yrs ago. Increased longevity illustrates my point.

 

It's true that modern civ. brings new threats to our bodies that we might obviate if we reverted to more "natural" lifestyles; e.g, improved diet, increased exercise, less exposure to toxins, etc. It's possible there is a connection between the onset of MPB and modern lifestyles.

 

AGA, in essence, has nothing to do with overall health. It's like growing beard hair. It's a genotype expressed as a phenotype once androgens are and have been prevalent up to some predesignated period of time. This does imply that gene expression and epigenetics, inasmuch as they relate to external influences, can provide insight on the timing and severity of MPB; but these are not the critical factors. This is not why it happens.

 

But, interestingly, and much in support of exploring this question, the onset of puberty is demonstrably earlier in the past few generations than ever before, as far as science can tell. Again, this is a phenotype brought about by sex hormones just like MPB. Studies on the early onset of puberty may shed light on this, not that it matters.

 

To think you could make actionable conclusions and effectively reduce or stop AGA seems absurd to me, no offense.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Taken4Granted

[Swimmy]

i don't think this subject will every exit the realm of speculation. I don't believe we are wholly less healthy than we were 5000 yrs ago. Increased longevity illustrates my point.

 

It's true that moden civ. brings new threats to our bodies that we might obviate if we reverted to more "natural" lifestyles; e.g, improved diet, increased exercise, less exposure to toxins, etc. It's possible there is a connection between the onset of MPB and modern lifestyles.

 

AGA, in essence, has nothing to do with overall health. It's like growing beard hair. It's a genotype expressed as a phenotype once androgens are and have been prevalent up to some predesignated period of time. This does imply that gene expression and epigenetics, inasmuch as they relate to external influences, can provide insight on the timing and severity of MPB; but these are not the critical factors. This is not why it happens.

 

But, interestingly, and much in support of exploring this question, the onset of puberty is demonstrably earlier in the past few generations than ever before, as far as science can tell. Again, this is a phenotype brought about by sex hormones just like MPB. Studies on the early onset of puberty may shed light on this, not that it matters.

 

To think you could make actionable conclusions and effectively reduce or stop AGA seems absurd to me, no offense.

 

 

AGA has a lot to do with overall health. Look at the studies. People with MPB are more vulnerable to being overweight, have diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. Have increased oxidative stress. Those are just off the top of my head

[Swimmy]

I am a believer that all the poisons we are exposed ot daily between the air, food water... is an accelerant in our mpb. Meaning we were still destined for it, only at a later time...

That being said, once the damage is done, I do not believe changing a diet will stop mpb, because it was going to happen anyway, it just happened a lot sooner...

With regard to claims that baldness has always been around, yes it has however much later in peoples lives.

 

MPB is a sign of premature aging..Look at the symptoms of a young MPB'er and look at the Symptoms of a 60 year old with MPB. They are remarkably the same. So something is hitting the switch prematurely and that switch is probably diet related.

[gmonasco]

Heck look at old movies of people in the 40's, 50's, 60's... Not that many people were going bald under the age of 30

 

Right, it couldn't possibly be the case that bald(ing) actors typically wore toupees.

[gmonasco]

MPB is a sign of premature aging.

 

Uh, not so. If that were the case, then men who experience MPB earlier in life would also commonly be exhibiting other signs of aging atypical for men of their age.

 

Look at the symptoms of a young MPB'er and look at the Symptoms of a 60 year old with MPB. They are remarkably the same.

 

Beyond the patently obvious symptom (i.e., loss of hair), what other commonality is there between the two?

[Taken4Granted]

AGA has a lot to do with overall health. Look at the studies. People with MPB are more vulnerable to being overweight, have diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. Have increased oxidative stress. Those are just off the top of my head

 

 

Alopecia of various types can be attributed to poor health, malnutrition, stress, etc., but not AGA. That's why it is important to diagnose the cause of your hair loss. If it's not AGA, then you are right, the other factors become important.

 

Also, as I said, there may indeed be some connection with those other factors, but I don't believe it's worth exploring. Viewing AGA as a disease would lead you to rationalize, erroneously, that something other than DHT and genetics really figures significantly in the solutions we pine for so desperately.

 

IMO, the most productive discussion would be about the multifarious hormonal signals and cross-communications that regulate the hair cycle. Attacking DHT reflects an oversimplified understanding of these dynamics.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Taken4Granted
had something to add

[gmonasco]

What is funny is that MPB increased in their country though after WW2 when the western diet was introduced to them.

 

Japanese life expectancy increased by an astounding 13.7 years in the decade immediately following World War II. So just maybe an alleged post-war increase in MPB might have had something to do with a lot more men living long enough to experience it rather than dying before its onset.

[Taken4Granted]

MPB is a sign of premature aging..Look at the symptoms of a young MPB'er and look at the Symptoms of a 60 year old with MPB. They are remarkably the same. So something is hitting the switch prematurely and that switch is probably diet related.

 

imo this is actually good evidence that age/aging has nothing to do with it.

 

a gerontologist is needed to explore this further

 

btw, im totally not trying to insult you by assertively disagreeing

[gmonasco]

There's a forum called immortalhair that touches thoroughly on this topic and has the research to back up these claims.

 

And there are plenty of forums that touch thoroughly on the topic that the U.S. government perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and have the research to back up their claims. Most of us have a higher standard for what constitutes "research," though.

 

The perfect diet can eliminate MPB.

 

And if you believe that, the folks at Immortal Hair are happy to sell you their "Immortal Hair Supplement Line" for "natural hair regrowth."

[Swimmy]

And there are plenty of forums that touch thoroughly on the topic that the U.S. government perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and have the research to back up their claims. Most of us have a higher standard for what constitutes "research," though.

 

 

 

Yes. I guess National Center for Biotechnology Information is completely fill with fraudulent research :rolleyes:

 

 

 

And if you believe that, the folks at Immortal Hair are happy to sell you their "Immortal Hair Supplement Line" for "natural hair regrowth."

 

 

I don't have time right now to respond to every post. I have to work in a few minutes so I'll get back to it. But this is quite a ignorant statement. First off the supplement line wasn't started till 2 months ago..The site as been ongoing for years..Nor do they claim it " naturally regrows hair" Nor does the supplement say as such.Again ignorant statement Actually read up before you make such remarks. The supplements were made for higher purity and to remove fillers found in everyday supplements

 

Like I said if you actually read anything other than what you wanted to see you would see no one on that site claims to take those supplements in any form will regrow hair. Read up and you will see its a trial and error for a lot of people and different stuff worked for different people. Or have claimed otherwise it didn't help them.

[Fante]

A few other things:

 

I always notice increased hairloss when I drink alcohol to excess. This is probably because of the stress on the liver as well as the large amount of sugar in alcohol. There is a theory that high sugar intake exacerbates mpb due to low SHBGs levels.

 

Also, I currently live in Korea, and there is ZERO premature hair loss. Ok, maybe I've seen one or two balding guys in their twenties, but that's it. I'm serious. Conversely whenever I meet with other westerners here my age (20s), practically half of them are bald or balding. 3 of the 4 westerners at my job are balding also.

 

Is this because a lifetime of bad western diet? Something must be be triggering it, it's can't be just bad luck.

 

Interestingly I see lots of bald Korean men in their 40s 50s (although not as many as in the USA), so the gene is still present, it just isn't expressing itself 20 years too soon. The Korean diet is really heavy on meat and veggies with of course white rice at every meal. Very little sugar or flour and almost no fried food.

[Fante]

Alopecia of various types can be attributed to poor health, malnutrition, stress, etc., but not AGA. That's why it is important to diagnose the cause of your hair loss. If it's not AGA, then you are right, the other factors become important.

 

Also, as I said, there may indeed be some connection with those other factors, but I don't believe it's worth exploring. Viewing AGA as a disease would lead you to rationalize, erroneously, that something other than DHT and genetics really figures significantly in the solutions we pine for so desperately.

 

IMO, the most productive discussion would be about the multifarious hormonal signals and cross-communications that regulate the hair cycle. Attacking DHT reflects an oversimplified understanding of these dynamics.

 

But what is causing the hair loss to start so early and progress so fast? I don't think our genetics are wired to turn on the hair loss on a certain month or on a certain day at a certain age. I can remember the exact day my hair started falling out. One day it was fine, the next it was coming out in handfulls when I would comb or wash. It was like I had been poisoned or something.

 

A slow gradual thinning over decades is natural. Going from a full head of hair to no temples and a bald spot on top in five years in not natural.

[Taken4Granted]

I don't find your definition of "natural" innately convincing. Please explain the reasoning behind your conclusion that a sudden, rapid onset of AGA is necessarily unnatural.

 

As for the alcohol, it's true there's been much debate on how it affects hair, skin, teeth, organs, and so on. It may indeed interrupt the hair cycle. But then, that would be toxin-induced hair loss, or "toxic alopecia," not AGA, right?

 

And it's interesting that young Koreans don't seem to be losing much hair. As AGA is a genetic trait, I'd have thought their ethnicity might have something to do with their rate of mpb vis-a-vis other ethnicities more prevalent in the West. But I'm just blithering.

 

And again, if the diet really is the cause, then we're not talking AGA are we? What do they call malnutrition-induced alopecia?

 

I think your challenge is not to brandish evidence in support of the thesis that western lifestyles trigger an unnaturally early/severe onset of AGA, but that hair loss in the West is not in fact genetic in nature.

 

Taken

[AdamAJ]

bro i think its mostly genetics

[Fante]

Yes, I know it's genetics. You can see fat unhealthy slobs in the USA with full heads of hair and plenty of bald dudes in great shape at the gym.

 

But I think diet and lifestyle play a very important part also.

[Davis]

ok perhaps movies was not the best example, however even older folks such as my grand parents and their friends have stated more people my age are balding than when they were my age...

[Fante]

It's not just movies. Whenever I see old photos or old documentary footage, I'm stunned by how little baldness I see in young men.

 

Plus the cultural belief that baldness only strikes middle aged men. This belief must have been grounded in truth at one point, right? Not any more it seems.

 

Taken:

I don't have any hard evidence for why early onset AGA is unnatural. It's more my intuition. Just because it happens a lot doesn't mean it's natural, though. Would it be natural if your face aged 20 years in the span of 5 years? That's essentially what's happening to my hair. Or would it be natural if your teeth started falling out in your twenties?

[Swimmy]

A few other things:

 

I always notice increased hairloss when I drink alcohol to excess. This is probably because of the stress on the liver as well as the large amount of sugar in alcohol. There is a theory that high sugar intake exacerbates mpb due to low SHBGs levels.

 

Also, I currently live in Korea, and there is ZERO premature hair loss. Ok, maybe I've seen one or two balding guys in their twenties, but that's it. I'm serious. Conversely whenever I meet with other westerners here my age (20s), practically half of them are bald or balding. 3 of the 4 westerners at my job are balding also.

 

Is this because a lifetime of bad western diet? Something must be be triggering it, it's can't be just bad luck.

 

Interestingly I see lots of bald Korean men in their 40s 50s (although not as many as in the USA), so the gene is still present, it just isn't expressing itself 20 years too soon. The Korean diet is really heavy on meat and veggies with of course white rice at every meal. Very little sugar or flour and almost no fried food.

 

 

 

In another thread awhile back I posted the top 10 foods to avoid when fighting hair loss. I'll post them here.

 

 

1. Alcoholic beverages 2. Corn

3. Wheat

4. Barley

5. Sugar (sugar cane and sugar beets)

6. Sorghum

7. Peanuts

8. Rye

9. Cottonseed oil.

10. Hard Cheeses

 

Basically any food that contains mycotoxins. The western diet on a daily bases contains a majority of those foods.

 

I don't find your definition of "natural" innately convincing. Please explain the reasoning behind your conclusion that a sudden, rapid onset of AGA is necessarily unnatural.

 

As for the alcohol, it's true there's been much debate on how it affects hair, skin, teeth, organs, and so on. It may indeed interrupt the hair cycle. But then, that would be toxin-induced hair loss, or "toxic alopecia," not AGA, right?

 

And it's interesting that young Koreans don't seem to be losing much hair. As AGA is a genetic trait, I'd have thought their ethnicity might have something to do with their rate of mpb vis-a-vis other ethnicities more prevalent in the West. But I'm just blithering.

 

And again, if the diet really is the cause, then we're not talking AGA are we? What do they call malnutrition-induced alopecia?

 

I think your challenge is not to brandish evidence in support of the thesis that western lifestyles trigger an unnaturally early/severe onset of AGA, but that hair loss in the West is not in fact genetic in nature.

 

Taken

 

It seems some people don't understand MPB as well as they think they do. Your definition of MPB and genetics behind it is that it happens for no reason what so ever. Plain and Simple and if its food related its mal nutrition.

 

From what I read and studied on MPB its definitely more complex than that. What you need to understand is that it doesn't happen for no reason. You're predisposed genetically. But that doesn't guarantee MPB. Life style choices can trigger these genetics and turn on the gene that causes MPB. The western diet guarantees a constant onslaught on these genetic weaknesses. Places like Korea and Japan don't experience high levels of MPB cause there diet is completely different. . The whole MPB happens for no reason is quite ridiculous and a brain washed fed answer.

 

So again someone can have the genetic trait for AGA. It doesn't mean they will go bald.. However, in America, its probably a guarantee you will

[AdamAJ]

i think your wrong....your either going to lose it or not.....ive seen really overweight people with a full head of hair....they eat like crap....if you were right....they would all be bald.....its genes buddy

[Fante]

Adam, if you had read my post you would have noticed I said pretty much the same thing. Those lucky guys that eat like crap and have full heads of hair are not genetically predisposed to baldness.

 

For those of us that are, diet and lifestyle play a hugely important role. Start eating nothing but junk food and drinking nothing but soda and alcohol and see how great your hair does.