medical schools, credentials

[HtQuestions]

I'm thinking about having a hair transplant. I have a question about a doctor who receives great reviews here--and I have no reason to doubt that. I'm a little uneasy though that his website says he "received his medical credentials from the University of the State of New York." Does anyone know anything about that? As far as I was able to find out, it doesn't seem like that's a medical school at all but some sort of state accrediting or administrative agency.

 

Also, any opinions on what weight if any to place on where a doctor received his degree? (I mean given the kind of procedure, minor surface surgery.)

Thanks.

[jacksonbrowne]

You talking about Feller? Look at the intials. He's a DO (Osteopath). Are you aware of the differences in training methodology between an DO (Osteopath) and MD? Both are full doctors, and require the same amount of rigorous training to get licensed to practice medine. DO schools are distinct from MD schools and candidates from both compete for the most of the same residencies and fellowships.

 

In some cases, I prefer DO's vs MD's. As to your original question, I place very little emphasis on medical school.

 

More telling is postgraduate training. Look at who they studied under, the specialty, experience and clinic. If they trained with a prominent doctor like Rassman, Bernstein, etc....

 

Aesthetic surgery like this is all about skill, practice and volume. A doc who does hair transplants as a side biz obviously cannot afford a dedicated staff of hair techs nor does it have the volume to keep skills fresh. Surgical skills do get a bit rusty if not practiced consistently. HT's are all about team effort like football.

 

I hold Robert Leonard as an example of clinics I avoid. Guy BURIES his DO degree DEEP into his bio, will not give you a graft count, and his before and after photo's, look like he used a boatload of bondo and masking tape along with smoke and mirrors. Despite this, his best work, the stuff he displays, still looks very mediocre despite Cadillac pricing.

 

http://www.hairdr.com/pages/dr-leonard

 

He's been offering the best of outdated procedures for 23.9years, all of a sudden gets a Neograft machine, gets on his local TV news station and postures like he's on the cutting edge and an FUE guru when he has ZERO experience and neglible training.He's not a bad surgeon, but merely mediocre having a consistent track record of producing mediocre transplants for the last 24years. Leonard just doesn'tt have the talent or skill to pull it off.

 

Dr. Feller, DO, on the otherhand, doesn't do any of that shady stuff.I do not know enough about his practice to give an educated opinion, but he does appear to have a proven track record.

Edited August 7, 2010 by jacksonbrowne

[NotUrAvg]

Well. there is State University of New York (SUNY) - which is a large system of public universities in NY. They have several SUNY's that have medical schools/residencies: SUNY-Downstate (Brooklyn), SUNY-Buffalo, SUNY-Stony Brook, SUNY-Upstate (Syracuse). These are legitimate schools and have some great training programs. SUNY-Downstate in Brooklyn is one of the most intense medical experiences in the US.

There is also University of the State of NY - which has a misleading title. This is a state credentialing body, and not an actual university. They are a governmental organization that oversees education accreditation in NY state. If this is what the CV is referring to, then this is not the medical school or residency that he went to. You should look elsewhere in the CV, or ask the office, if you are curious where he got his medical training. This is not a DO school. Hope that helps.

[HtQuestions]

Thank you

@NotUrAvg,

That is the issue, or specifically a doctor's decision not to state his medical school, but instead refer to the "University of the State of New York."

First, confusion is likely to result: most readers would (wrongly) assume that means SUNY (or think a couple of words got transposed in typing).

Second, it's not a medical school at all, and most people would (wrongly) assume USNY [sic], whatever it is, is at least a real university.

I didn't find elsewhere in his website any mention of his true medical school.

To clarify and extend a bit my question:

1. Should I be worried that a doctor does not reveal his medical school, but refers to something that is not a medical school as if it were.

2. Or am I completely mistaken and is the University of the State of New York entirely appropriate, at least for a hair transplant doctor?

 

@jacksonbrowne, spex:

DO's and MD's seem to have almost identical education and training, though it seems peculiar to decide to become a DO, given it's less known by the public (and the only difference I've read, I have some minor skepticism about--the emphasis in DO training on osteopathic manipulative treatment.) But that's not my question--for hair transplant surgery (assuming no general anesthesia is used), I suspect a more limited set of factors count, such as technical experience and choice of method (jacksonbrowne put it well, "skill, practice, and volume"). My original question has mainly to do with credibility (what could be taken as an evasion about one's medical school), given that the industry is obviously dominated by marketers and hype for a number of reasons (for one thing, better doctors would probably prefer something with more respectability).

 

Let me emphasize I have absolutely no grounds for doubting the many great reviews of the doctor in question here--it's only a question about how he presents his medical training in the bio, and I'm not sure that's incorrect--I think it depends mainly on what USNY is, what the accepted practice with other doctors concerning that, etc.

Edited August 7, 2010 by HtQuestions

[jacksonbrowne]

Thank you

@jacksonbrowne, spex:

My original question has mainly to do with credibility (what could be taken as an evasion about one's medical school), given that the industry is obviously dominated by marketers and hype for a number of reasons (for one thing, better doctors would probably prefer something with more respectability).

 

 

DO's and MD's have had a contentious relationship for years, not so much anymore, but look at the stats:

 

-DO's make less money on avg than MD's

 

-DO schools get VERY little in the way of research grants

 

-DO applicants in general have lower MCAT scores

 

Having said that, Allopathic medicine is so rigid and seems to pride itself on consistent results, thus making the wrong diagnosis 9 out of 10 times is more important than getting it right out of 1/10 times.

 

People choose OD schools for a variety of reasons. I had a friend who got into MD schools out of state, but did not want to leave California.

 

I had another who got rejected by MD school and went DO in lieu of going to some fringe school in the Philippines.

 

In terms of presentation, I appreciate Dr's like Glenn Charles who puts it all out there without pretension.

[Blake Bloxham]

As some of you may know, I'm currently a medical student (at a DO program), so I wanted to clear up a few misconceptions:

 

First, there are two slightly separate paths to becoming a fully licensed physician (unrestricted prescription rights and the ability to practice medicine and surgery) in the US: the MD (Allopathic) path and the DO (Osteopathic) path. The only difference, with regard to curricula, is that Osteopathic schools place an added emphasis on musculoskeletal diagnosis and treatment (an integrated practice of manual techniques known as Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment). Unfortunately, only a small number of DOs utilize these techniques in practice.

 

Both types of students sit for qualifier "boards," complete residencies, and practice along side each other in private practices, hospitals, and in academia. Additionally, two types of organizations sponsor the boards and residencies - the ACGME (American Council of Graduate Medical Education - MD "side") and the AOA (American Osteopathic Association - DO "side"), and DOs are allowed to sit for both sets of boards (the COMLEX and USMLE) and complete both types of residencies.

 

In the end, DOs can (and do) practice in all fields of medicine (surgery, family practice, dermatology, etc), and are identical to MDs in the field. For example, I worked in a large academic Emergency Room in Los Angeles for two years, and it took me over a year before one day stepping into the Chief of Staff's office and realizing he was a DO.

 

Furthermore, I'm unsure that this physician in question is trying to hide his or her medical degree by misstating the name of the medical school attended. I know the school in question is now called the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine (of the New York Institute of Technology), but this does not mean this is always what the school was called. Changing the name of a medical school is not an uncommon practice, and there is a good chance that the school was called the University of the State of New York at the time of graduation.

 

For example, the school I'm attending is called the Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine (at A.T. Still University). However, during the day of my interview, I met with a physician who graduated from the same school in the 1970s when it was called "the Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine and Surgery." Now when this doctor lists their credentials, it would probably seem as if the school doesn't exist because of the name change.

 

 

DO's and MD's have had a contentious relationship for years, not so much anymore, but look at the stats:

 

I disagree with this statement (though I thought many of your original ideas were dead on!). I personally know many students who applied both, many DO residents who happily work aside MD residents in their ACGME (or dual AOA/ACGME) residencies, and many attendings who practice together. I think the "contentious relationship" exists more on the pre-medical level.

 

-DO's make less money on avg than MD's

 

This is incorrect. Salary is determined by the field of medicine practiced and how the procedures performed are reimbursed. An MD and a DO in the same field would be reimbursed equally for services rendered. Any difference in salary about be about the individual practice, but is unlikely to have anything to do with the medical degree achieved.

 

-DO schools get VERY little in the way of research grants

 

This is an unfortunate reality that has a lot to do with the fact that many DO schools aren't associated with large undergraduate universities (and I hope will change soon). For example, I interviewed at a medical school in Florida where the dean stated he was able to increase the research grant money to $24 million for the upcoming academic year. Again, nothing compared to the level of some MD research based universities, but I think DO schools will continue pushing toward more research on their campuses.

 

-DO applicants in general have lower MCAT scores

 

From my personal experiences, I can say that the gap is closing between Allopathic and Osteopathic matriculates (at the GPA/MCAT level), especially at some of the older, highly respected DO schools.

 

Having said that, Allopathic medicine is so rigid and seems to pride itself on consistent results, thus making the wrong diagnosis 9 out of 10 times is more important than getting it right out of 1/10 times.

 

The Allopathic and Osteopathic world are highly merged for the most part. Essentially, both fields practice evidence based, Western medicine. I personally know DOs who are very rigid and scientific and MDs who rely on hollistic, more natural techniques (supposedly a trademark of DOs). Again, it's probably more of an individual choice.

 

People choose OD schools for a variety of reasons. I had a friend who got into MD schools out of state, but did not want to leave California.

 

I had another who got rejected by MD school and went DO in lieu of going to some fringe school in the Philippines.

 

People chose one above the other for a variety of reasons. I read a recent study that showed location, cost, and proximity to family/loved-ones was ranked most highly among applicants.

 

I hope this helps! I've had this discussion many times with fellow applicants, family, friends, etc, so don't hesitate to ask any additional questions!

[HtQuestions]

While I don't mean to curtail the discussion of do vs md, the question I mean to focus on is this: whether it is or should be a concern that a given doctor does not reveal where he received his medical degree, but says he "received his medical credentials from the University of the State of New York," without saying that is only an administrative agency, and not a medical school. Or is that generally acceptable in this kind of outside clinical procedure? perhaps it's specific to new york?

 

I just saw that Future_HT_Doc offers a possible explanation (below). (thanks). Does anyone know if the New York Institute of Technology's College of Osteopathic Medicine was ever called the "University of the State of New York." It seems unlikely since that is what the administrative agency in New York is called (as I understand it). I wouldn't say "trying to hide," but it could be that he was picking something that sounds better and is technically correct (as the accrediting agency), but may turn out to be slightly misleading. But again, I may be overlooking something simple here.

 

Furthermore, I'm unsure that this physician in question is trying to hide his or her medical degree by misstating the name of the medical school attended. I know the school in question is now called the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine (of the New York Institute of Technology), but this does not mean this is always what the school was called. Changing the name of a medical school is not an uncommon practice, and there is a good chance that the school was called the University of the State of New York at the time of graduation.

 

Edited August 7, 2010 by HtQuestions

[NotUrAvg]

Hey HTQuestions, I now understand where you are coming from, and have checked out said physician's website. I agree with you. I think this is an intentional omission. I do not know if it was intended to mislead the reader, but it is very easy to misinterpret that statement if you do not know any better. In fact, it was difficult to find any information on this surgeon's medical training, residency, or HT training on the internet (But I found plenty of info on how enthusiastic of an "inventor" he is...haha). A physician's website serves little purpose other than to sell the physician (and to a much lesser part to educate the patient). Though very undeserved, there exists a stigma in some peoples minds that a DO is less qualified than an MD, or could not get into an allopathic school. Most physicians who go to a good medical school or residency brandish this information in a gratuitous and unsolicited manner. Physician's who hide their training (which I think is the case here), do so because they don't want it to negatively impact how they market themselves. In the world of cosmetic surgery, the only way to be successful is word of mouth and good marketing . In my opinion (many may disagree), I find this instance deceptive. But you can't judge a physian's skill as a surgeon based on his website. I know many good surgeons who are unscrupulous businessman, and many bad surgeons who are very honest businessman. For this doctor, I would place this as a small negative in a sea of many positives (based on patient results and satisfaction).

In regards, to your second question about placing importance on where a degree is received. I couldn't care less if the doctor was an MD, DO, or went to medical school in Tonga. Very little of what you learn in medical school is utilized in HT surgery. What is much more important is where he did his residency and HT fellowship, what kind of experience/volume he has had at this point, and what his results are like (like others have said). I wouldn't rule a skilled surgeon out just because they were a little shady on their website.

[HtQuestions]

NotUrAvg said:

I know many good surgeons who are unscrupulous businessman, and many bad surgeons who are very honest businessman. For this doctor, I would place this as a small negative in a sea of many positives (based on patient results and satisfaction).

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with you. I would have advised him to be upfront about his medical school as the much better policy. On the other hand, even though hair transplants can be a good thing (in those cases where they work well -- I don't know what percent do), it is not a very respectable specialty for a doctor, even compared to cosmetic plastic surgery (perhaps because it is not only cosmetics but cosmetics for men). That's probably going to affect the motivations and judgments of many if not most of the doctors in this area, so one has to have a wider tolerance.

 

You make an excellent point that ability and honesty are not the same thing.

One would like to have a great deal of both though, especially when a knife is involved.

Edited August 7, 2010 by HtQuestions

[Bill - Seemiller]

HTQuestions,

 

I have emailed Dr. Feller to clear up any misconceptions you or others may have regarding his medical background and credentials. But I'd like to know why you're so interested in this topic. As a brand nwe member, you're doing a lot of scrutinizing of Dr. Feller's credentials and medical background when even you admit he's not trying to hide anything. So what is your interest and purpose in creating such a topic. Why didn't you just email Dr. Feller directly and ask him? Are you a prospective patient or someone trying to stir and create unnecessary controversy?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[NotUrAvg]

Dr. Feller has clearly been meticulously vetted to be a recommended surgeon, and there are more than enough patients on this site to attest to his skills. But I do not think this makes any doctor forever immune to scrutiny. I think HTQuestions question is not simply, where did Dr. Feller go to school, but whether he intentionally misrepresented himself in his website biography. If it was an intentional misrepresentation (which it very well may not be), it may speak towards the integrity of how this physician markets himself to patients. And for some patients, integrity in their doctor is an important factor, especially when you're entrusting your appearance and thousands of dollars to them. In my opinion, whether you have 2 or 200 posts, this should be an appropriate forum to ask other people their opinion, especially if it's done in a professional and non-libelous manner. I know it may look suspicious when someone's first post calls a surgeon into question, but I don't see HTQuestions mention Dr. Feller's name once. Based on the website, I absolutely agree that his training is presented in an incomplete and very ambiguous way (again the issue is not whether he is a well trained or talented surgeon, but rather, how he chooses to represent himself). The biography may have just been written hastily and without unscrupulous motives, as the very first sentence states that Dr. Feller was born, raised, and went to medical school at his HT clinic (that's one impressive clinic!) Go to the same website and click on Dr. Lidsey's name if you want to see how to clearly present your medical biography. After all, the purpose of a medical biography is to tell the patient why and how this physician is trained and qualified to do surgery on them.

Edited August 8, 2010 by NotUrAvg

[Bill - Seemiller]

NotYourAvg,

 

I don't have a problem with members asking legitimate questions. But just as we hold physicians accountable for their actions and results, members should also be held accountable for their posts and motives. I think given the following, there's reason to be suspicious of his motives. Is he a prospective patient genuinely just interested or a covert competitor trying to stir up senseless controversy and tarnish Dr. Feller's reputation?

 

HTQuestions is a brand new member and his very first post is asking overly scrutinizing questions with a hint of accusation that only Dr. Feller can answer. Why didn't he simply send an email to Dr. Feller asking clarification of his credentials? Why would he think that patient members of this community would know and be able to address whether Dr. Feller is "purposely misrepresenting" himself?

 

Posting on a public forum with "concerns" before attempting to get your questions or concerns answered and addressed privately is often an attempt to rally a crowd and start controversy. I'm not saying this is always the case, but the question has to be put out there.

 

I feel confident that there's a perfectly good and simple explanation that will address HTQuestions' concerns. However, only Dr. Feller can address these.

 

I've been notified by Spex that he and Dr. Feller will both be unavailable since they will be on vacation. And since at this point, only Dr. Feller can address the above concerns, I don't think it's fair to keep this thread going with possible ongoing misconceptions and unfair accusations when I feel confident that there's a very simple explanation.

 

I've already sent an email to Dr. Feller and will send him another one letting him know that I've locked the topic until he can fashion a reply. That said, if HTQuestions genuinely wants to understand Dr. Feller's credentials in the meantime, he is welcome to contact the clinic directly by phone or email directly.

 

Note that I'm only locking this thread until Dr. Feller comes back and can fashion a reply. I just don't think it's fair to let unfair speculation about what's written about his credentials on his website to continue while he's not available to address these concerns.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Pat - Community Publisher]

To provide clarification, I communicated with Dr. Feller this morning regarding this topic. He informed me that the name of his medical school is the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine at New York Institute of Technology. Those who would like more information about this fully accredited medical institution may visit it's Wikipedia page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_College_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

 

I admit that I have had a long time bias toward proven patient results, state of the art techniques and physician reputation and skill over formal academic background. Over the years I've seen far too many physicians with impressive academic pedigrees who in practice do not provide state of the art results.

 

In the interest of clarity, we will be updating Dr. Feller's recommendation and Coalition profile page on our sites to reflect the complete name of this institution.

 

Best wishes for great results to all, Pat

[HtQuestions]

Pat,

 

Thank you for your clarification on that. I feel much more comfortable when doctors, all doctors, are absolutely clear about their credentials on their websites, and I hope others can understand why that is an important concern--and why they should not feel embarassed to scrutinize these things and raise questions if something doesn't seem right (BEFORE the surgery!).

 

(I want to point out also that I have no sinister or hidden motive: I am trying to cut through all the marketing hype and untrustworthy information out there, which is extremely hard to do, at least based on what one finds in Internet searches. I am looking to have hair transplant surgery for myself, and haven't yet met or spoken with any doctor or clinic who does hair transplants, but I will soon. Obviously it's a problem getting reliable and unbiased information when so many sites on the internet have a conflict of interest (caused by accepting ads or fees from the doctors they review), or have consultants on commissions posting. I don't see an easy way to separate the good from the bad information, but I'm trying.)

Edited August 9, 2010 by HtQuestions

[NotUrAvg]

HTQ, I could not agree with you more. It cannot emphasized enough how important it is for physicians to communicate in a crystal clear manner. Whether it is about their training, how they do their surgery, what the patient's expectations should be, or what complications were encountered, communication has to be done in an honest and unambiguous manner, and anything less is a disservice to the patient.