Discussion: What causes baldness

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

Most people who are educated would say that DHT is the primary cause for baldness, but after doing some more thinking about it...I don't believe this is true. Here's what I mean...

 

Here is a quote from Shapiro Medical Group's website:

 

"The cause of male pattern baldness is no longer a mystery. Research has shown that when the male hormone - testosterone is exposed to 5-alpha-reductase, an enzyme in the hair follicle, it produces another hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which causes permanent hair loss. This hormone (DHT) causes the hair follicle to shrink and grow a finer hair that is lighter in color, shorter and less deeply rooted than its predecessor. Most often, the hair in the balding region will continue to grow at an increasingly slower rate until hair growth ceases completely."

 

Yes, I agree with this ALMOST completely...but there is one statement in here I don't agree with...

 

"(DHT), which causes permanent hair loss. "

 

If I understand this correctly...ALL men have DHT as it's natural produced in the body. And if all men have DHT, and DHT is the CAUSE for hair loss, wouldn't all men be bald? Not only would all men be bald...but nobody would have hair on the sides and back of their head either. There would be no "safe zone" for hair transplantation. So there has to be more to this...

 

Clearly "levels" of DHT must play a part in this OR there is another root cause?

 

So I would think there is more to study here. Here are a few proposed theories:

 

1. Levels of DHT and resistance theory: All hair follicles have resistances to DHT, however, some have weaker resistances than others. When DHT reaches a level that is higher than the hairs resistance, the hair follicles begin to die as described above

 

However, the problem I have with this theory is this: If it is simply just the levels of DHT that is the cause of hair loss...why is it that dare I say NOBODY (unless there is some medical condition) loses hair in the safe zone? What makes these hairs safe? What is it that makes their resistances higher than the other hairs?

 

In order to prove the resistance theory...one would have to test pumping up DHT levels in men with a full head of hair to see if they would go bald. I know I wouldn't volunteer for that test . But it is something to ponder.

 

2. The other genetic root cause theory: Certain men have hair follicles throughout their scalp that are genetically programmed to be susceptible to DHT. It is these hairs that will eventually fall out as described in the above quote.

 

If this theory is true...what do we know about the other root cause? How come there is no to little research attempting to find the root problem?

 

But which of these are true? Or is it a combination of both?

 

So if it is a combination and DHT levels play a role and there is another root cause...what is this mysterious gene? Can it be targeted and is there a way to turn it off? Wouldn't this be better than trying to minimize DHT which is naturally produced in every man? Finasteride and other researched medications like dudasteride attempt to minimize DHT in the body, allowing hairs susceptible to DHT to live. Wouldn't attacking the source be better than trying to lower the levels of DHT just enough so that the hair can resist the lower levels just enough to survive?

 

Anyway...just some food for thought and for interesting discussion. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

Most people who are educated would say that DHT is the primary cause for baldness, but after doing some more thinking about it...I don't believe this is true. Here's what I mean...

 

Here is a quote from Shapiro Medical Group's website:

 

"The cause of male pattern baldness is no longer a mystery. Research has shown that when the male hormone - testosterone is exposed to 5-alpha-reductase, an enzyme in the hair follicle, it produces another hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which causes permanent hair loss. This hormone (DHT) causes the hair follicle to shrink and grow a finer hair that is lighter in color, shorter and less deeply rooted than its predecessor. Most often, the hair in the balding region will continue to grow at an increasingly slower rate until hair growth ceases completely."

 

Yes, I agree with this ALMOST completely...but there is one statement in here I don't agree with...

 

"(DHT), which causes permanent hair loss. "

 

If I understand this correctly...ALL men have DHT as it's natural produced in the body. And if all men have DHT, and DHT is the CAUSE for hair loss, wouldn't all men be bald? Not only would all men be bald...but nobody would have hair on the sides and back of their head either. There would be no "safe zone" for hair transplantation. So there has to be more to this...

 

Clearly "levels" of DHT must play a part in this OR there is another root cause?

 

So I would think there is more to study here. Here are a few proposed theories:

 

1. Levels of DHT and resistance theory: All hair follicles have resistances to DHT, however, some have weaker resistances than others. When DHT reaches a level that is higher than the hairs resistance, the hair follicles begin to die as described above

 

However, the problem I have with this theory is this: If it is simply just the levels of DHT that is the cause of hair loss...why is it that dare I say NOBODY (unless there is some medical condition) loses hair in the safe zone? What makes these hairs safe? What is it that makes their resistances higher than the other hairs?

 

In order to prove the resistance theory...one would have to test pumping up DHT levels in men with a full head of hair to see if they would go bald. I know I wouldn't volunteer for that test . But it is something to ponder.

 

2. The other genetic root cause theory: Certain men have hair follicles throughout their scalp that are genetically programmed to be susceptible to DHT. It is these hairs that will eventually fall out as described in the above quote.

 

If this theory is true...what do we know about the other root cause? How come there is no to little research attempting to find the root problem?

 

But which of these are true? Or is it a combination of both?

 

So if it is a combination and DHT levels play a role and there is another root cause...what is this mysterious gene? Can it be targeted and is there a way to turn it off? Wouldn't this be better than trying to minimize DHT which is naturally produced in every man? Finasteride and other researched medications like dudasteride attempt to minimize DHT in the body, allowing hairs susceptible to DHT to live. Wouldn't attacking the source be better than trying to lower the levels of DHT just enough so that the hair can resist the lower levels just enough to survive?

 

Anyway...just some food for thought and for interesting discussion. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Bill

[Guest]

You bring up a good point Bill.

Although I am not equipped to answer this I read something recently about a key gene they found in rats that my hold the clue to hairloss.

[MrJobi]

Hi Bill

 

scientists are looking for this particular gene in order to "alter it".. The best scenario would be to genetically modify all hairs to be resistant to DHT, i.e no more hair loss. At this point the only treatment ( besides HT's) is to reduce the DHT levels to allow hair to live and regrow

[Rhodeman]

Bill,

 

It would seem that's there more to it than isolating a gene or DHT levels. For example, why the various Norwood groupings? Why do I have hair in the middle of the top of my head that is fine, while the surrounding hairs on top did not hold up?

 

Why is it that the "horizontal" or "near" horizontal hair is usually the hair that seems to be the hair that is lost?

 

Let me know if you find the answer so I can buy some stock in your company.

[Guest]

Let me know if you find the answer so I can buy some stock in your company.

 

 

lol, me too!

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

Regardless the key point is what affects the hair.. It could be the sensitivity level of the hairs in my opinion.

 

It's all genes

[Bill - Seemiller]

Great discussion guys...look forward to more questions posed...and maybe even more answers.

 

Rhodeman,

 

Great added questions. The fact that there are varying norwood levels is certainly a consideration for the scientists studying hairloss to consider...which is along the same lines of my questioni, why is there a safe zone? Clearly certain hairs are impacted by DHT and why? Perhaps some hairs (different in everyone) are genetically programmed to be susceptible while others are not. Obviously, the "safe" zone is similar in everyone...but why the varying levels of norwood?

 

Maybe there's more than one gene? Maybe there are varying strengths of these genes that when they attach to hair follicles (so to speak), that some have more impact than others, hence, why some people only ever lose hair up to a norwood 2, etc. This is all speculation on my part.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the answer...but I'm glad you brought up the question, which is the point of my whole post...to facilitate discussion on some of the unknown factors.

 

I'd love to hear more feedback from you all and I'd also love to hear physician feedback on some of this as well.

 

Bill

[Guest HLBD]

Well Bill,

 

It looks like the people at Curis believe that hairloss may have something to do with the breakdown of the regenerative Hedgehog signaling pathway.

 

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_20/b3933094_mz018.htm

[Bill - Seemiller]

HLBD,

 

Yep...I read and participated in that post after I originally posted this thread. That being said, I'm very disappointed to hear that the drug they were working on causes cancer.

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

Bill,

 

Great discussion and obviously there is no easy answer as whomever solves the riddle will be a very rich individual.

 

As many believe, there is no solid studies that gives definitive answers but most believe that it is a combination of factors.

 

There is the obvious link with DHT and how certain areas of the scalp and some hairs are more susceptible. As, already mentioned, certain genes are coded for hairloss and again this is another factor.

 

What has not been mentioned and some people downplay its role is blood supply. There is evidence that certain capilleries in the scalp of balding men do atrophy and this will limit the hairs ability for full growth. This might help to explain the Norwood scale and why it varies. Ofcourse this is not the only answer, but I believe it is a bigger factor than many think. Just remember it is the premiss behind why Rogaine and lasers help limit or grow hair. Just my 2 cents.

 

Great topic.

 

NN

[Bill - Seemiller]

NN,

 

Thanks for joining into the discussion.

 

I think if anything...this post helps point out that there is still much more to be discovered in the area of the cause of hairloss. Uncovering the cause is the first step to finding a true cure.

 

It appeared that Curis was onto something with the Hedgehog Signaling pathway...however, research on the drug to re-enable it has come to a hault.

 

Even still...if indeed this signaling pathway has a role...it's the "something" that causes the Hedgehog Signaling pathway to close that may be the root cause.

 

I just hope that scientists are one day able to answer these questions and come up with a cure. Until then...we know our options....we just have limitations.

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

Hi all

 

My only question to the blood supply theory would be why dont the HT's fallout?

 

Same blood supply? BUT the new DHT resistant hairs grow full and normal?

 

Maybe the additional blood flow ( i.e. minoxidil or laser treatment which I do not believe in) hypothetically wash away DHT ??

 

I am surely no expert here