Mixed bag of questions

[OS-PWRLFTR]

I wasn't sure which forum to post this as i have a few different concerns and questions not specifically tailored to a particular forum unless I split it up.

 

**EDIT** i see this could have gone in the Open Forum, sorry!

 

OK, to start off, I'm 30yrs old, I would have to guesstimate stage 2 or 3. I have a full head of hair but it has been noticeable decreasing and thinning over the past 2.5yrs

 

I have been using Rogaine for about 1.5yrs and I'm not really sure it has decreased progression or not. I have contemplated Propecia for some time now but haven't made the step to use it yet because of some concerns.

 

1) I am a competitive Power Lifter, DHT is highly anabolic and i am worried that reducing the level in my body might have an impact on my strength.

 

2) I also body build and I worry about DHT's role in muscle building, though it is an androgen from what I understand it isn't nearly significant as testosterone is in that area so I guess thats debatable.

 

3) sex drive, I have read the horror stories of men totally loosing their libido due to the decrease of DHT and at times taking years to regain it or restore their drive due to DHT suppression treatment.

 

4) Gyno, DHT helps prohibit the formation of Gyno by regulating estrogen. With lower DHT and a normal testosterone level I'm worried about my estrogen regulation. I know there are ways to combat the situation if it arises (nolva, a-dex) now we are playing with levels and other possible sides including abnormal lipid profiles etc..

 

So here I am researching a transplant with out ever using propecia. Most would say I'm nuts but my idea is to get as much donor hair implanted as possible so the fallout of my native hair wouldn't be as noticeable as time progresses. I would still continue the topical treatment to help preserve as much native hair as possible of coarse.

 

Though, I'm not even sure a DR would even consider me since I haven't started a regimen with propecia.

 

I feel like this is a double edge sword here. Either sacrifice the full potential of restoring my hair due to DHT's anabolic effects in a mans body because of my competitive Power lifting and other concerns. Or try Propecia for 10 or so months, see if it effects my strength, sex drive and other hormonal levels in my body and hope it helps re grow or restore my hair. Though at that point I'm almost another year out and could have had a transplant already thus prolonging the torture of my extreme self consciousness and having to wait an additional year or so to enjoy the results of a transplant.

 

 

So I sit here wondering weather or not I should make a judgment call based on my research and concerns or just suck it up and exhaust every avenue.

 

I assume a 1 on 1 consult with a DR would also help me make a decision. After researching the Forum, and viewing testimony of results and pictures I decided DR True would be my choice based on location and feed back from this site about him.

[OS-PWRLFTR]

I wasn't sure which forum to post this as i have a few different concerns and questions not specifically tailored to a particular forum unless I split it up.

 

**EDIT** i see this could have gone in the Open Forum, sorry!

 

OK, to start off, I'm 30yrs old, I would have to guesstimate stage 2 or 3. I have a full head of hair but it has been noticeable decreasing and thinning over the past 2.5yrs

 

I have been using Rogaine for about 1.5yrs and I'm not really sure it has decreased progression or not. I have contemplated Propecia for some time now but haven't made the step to use it yet because of some concerns.

 

1) I am a competitive Power Lifter, DHT is highly anabolic and i am worried that reducing the level in my body might have an impact on my strength.

 

2) I also body build and I worry about DHT's role in muscle building, though it is an androgen from what I understand it isn't nearly significant as testosterone is in that area so I guess thats debatable.

 

3) sex drive, I have read the horror stories of men totally loosing their libido due to the decrease of DHT and at times taking years to regain it or restore their drive due to DHT suppression treatment.

 

4) Gyno, DHT helps prohibit the formation of Gyno by regulating estrogen. With lower DHT and a normal testosterone level I'm worried about my estrogen regulation. I know there are ways to combat the situation if it arises (nolva, a-dex) now we are playing with levels and other possible sides including abnormal lipid profiles etc..

 

So here I am researching a transplant with out ever using propecia. Most would say I'm nuts but my idea is to get as much donor hair implanted as possible so the fallout of my native hair wouldn't be as noticeable as time progresses. I would still continue the topical treatment to help preserve as much native hair as possible of coarse.

 

Though, I'm not even sure a DR would even consider me since I haven't started a regimen with propecia.

 

I feel like this is a double edge sword here. Either sacrifice the full potential of restoring my hair due to DHT's anabolic effects in a mans body because of my competitive Power lifting and other concerns. Or try Propecia for 10 or so months, see if it effects my strength, sex drive and other hormonal levels in my body and hope it helps re grow or restore my hair. Though at that point I'm almost another year out and could have had a transplant already thus prolonging the torture of my extreme self consciousness and having to wait an additional year or so to enjoy the results of a transplant.

 

 

So I sit here wondering weather or not I should make a judgment call based on my research and concerns or just suck it up and exhaust every avenue.

 

I assume a 1 on 1 consult with a DR would also help me make a decision. After researching the Forum, and viewing testimony of results and pictures I decided DR True would be my choice based on location and feed back from this site about him.

[notgoing2gobald]

I don't think your nuts, but then again Im nuts. No, just kidding. But, seriously I have not tried propecia either because I share some of your concerns regarding it. You sound very informed regarding these topics, but from my understanding propecia blocks the CONVERSION of DHT from testosterone. Unless DHT contributes to building muscle, then there would be no loss or cause for concern on your part with respect to body building.

 

Does DHT contribute to building muscle mass? I did not think so. Maybe Im wrong. I used to be really into lifting weights myself (damn! I need to get my lazy ass back in the gym! have you tried NO2?) and this was one of my concerns. I called the drug company and asked them about this, they said it would not interfere with building muscle. I guess best bet would be to ask a doc on this one.

 

I know for a fact that a lot of guys on this forum are in the exact same position as your in. So don't think your nuts for wanting to pursue a transplant without having started propecia. From my understanding most of the docs will strongly suggest using it if you do go for a ht, but there is no chance it's required. As you know a lot of guys report absolutely no side effects and some retain their hair for years. Im just worried about those horror stories out there. What if you do end up with a lazy, limp, linguini noodle? Im only 28 and sometimes I feel like my libido is having roid rage. If I experienced those sides I think that would really mess with my head. Everyone says that it is both rare and only temporary, but there was some guy who posted a hyperlink on here one time (I kinda wish he never did) to this forum where all guys do is discuss their side effects and horror stories from it. Some guys claimed they persisted and I think they even said they did not go away. I don't know. I guess an argument could be made that you can't believe everything online, but it sure derailed me from going forward with trying it....

 

 

Does anyone know if there is any veracity to those (persisting sexual sides) claim?

 

I think you should go in for a consultation with a ht doc. Its free and you will only become more educated as to what the benefits and restrictions are in your individual case.

 

My thoughts anyway.

[hoose]

I am a competitive bodybuilder and have been on propecia for over 6 years; i don't feel it has hampered my results in the gym at all;

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Thats a legit concern. Ive been taking img of propecia everyother day for a year now. Yesterday I put up my best numbers ever on 2 of the 3 lifts. I was stuck for awhile but Ive been getting stronger every week now with no gyno or looss of drive . I also use aimf and that seems to keep estrogen levels perfect.

[notgoing2gobald]

PGP,

 

have you had benefit from propecia use? Did you experience any sides if you took it every day?

 

anyone: are estrogen levels a concern with propecia? I had not heard of that.

[Bill - Seemiller]

OS-Pwrlftr,

 

Welcome to our community.

 

I have been on Propecia for over 3 years and haven't experienced any problems with my gym performance. I am not a competitive lifter but have been working out consistently for years.

 

Clearly there is a potential for side effects with the medication but they are reported as rare. Lessing of stength shouldn't be a problem.

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

YEAH BENIFITS OF NOT LOSING ANYMORE GROUND. I NEVER TRIED TO TAKE IT EVERYDAY AS AT LEAST 5 DOCTORS AND A TON OF RESEARCH HAS CONVINCED ME TAKING IT EVERYDAY ISNT REQUIRED.

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Im just worried about those horror stories out there. What if you do end up with a lazy, limp, linguini noodle? Im only 28 and sometimes I feel like my libido is having roid rage. If I experienced those sides I think that would really mess with my head. Everyone says that it is both rare and only temporary, but there was some guy who posted a hyperlink on here one time (I kinda wish he never did) to this forum where all guys do is discuss their side effects and horror stories from it. Some guys claimed they persisted and I think they even said they did not go away. I don't know. I guess an argument could be made that you can't believe everything online, but it sure derailed me from going forward with trying it....

 

Does anyone know if there is any veracity to those (persisting sexual sides) claim?

.

 

 

Yes, Finasteride does block the conversion of DHT from testosterone but it also regulates estrogen. Problem is, Finesteride, Proscar, Propecia can throw your levels out of whack In short, DHT regulates Estrogen but Finasteride kills DHT. Therefore, you might have more estrogen floating around than usual. That would drive your E/E2:Testosterone ratios off. hence possible gyno problems due to increased estrogen and lack of sex drive due to both Testosterone and Estrogen levels being out of whack

 

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

PGP,

 

have you had benefit from propecia use? Did you experience any sides if you took it every day?

 

anyone: are estrogen levels a concern with propecia? I had not heard of that.

 

Taks a look at this article....

 

by Patrick Arnold

 

A considerable chunk of my work day is always spent answering people's questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen by product that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

 

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those good guy / bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will help you decide just which group you belong to.

 

Testosterone is a prohormone?

 

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals ??“ practically everything but muscle ??“ the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

 

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

 

This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone ??“ it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

 

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

 

Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

 

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

 

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

 

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

 

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What's going on here? We know it couldn't be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

 

Anti ??“ Estrogen effects of DHT

 

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way ??“ by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification ??“ bitch tits!

 

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

 

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

 

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production ??“ testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

 

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

 

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

 

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

 

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

 

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio ??“ a condition common in older men ??“ is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

 

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

 

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

 

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

 

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:

 

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.

 

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

 

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn't it?

 

Conclusion

 

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone's bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don't need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break.

[notgoing2gobald]

well shit!...didn't read the entire article yet, but I don't like the bitch-tits bit. Guess Im glad I have not taken it yet. It is tempting when I see guys who have re-grown hair or have kept their hair for many years, I must admit. *BUT* what good is a bunch of hair on the head if your getting slapped in the face with your OWN tits when your on top of your girl? Not a very masculine look I would have to say.

 

 

hey Lifter,

 

did you ever juice? Im just wondering if that is a contributing factor to your over all concern with regard to estrogen levels...By the way, why am I the only one getting quoted here? I took it that I was the only one who had a perspective/view similar to yours (yet much less detailed due to not being as informed as you) regarding this matter? I have NOT taken it either out of a concern for some of the possible sides you mentioned...

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

well shit!...didn't read the entire article yet, but I don't like the bitch-tits bit. Guess Im glad I have not taken it yet. It is tempting when I see guys who have re-grown hair or have kept their hair for many years, I must admit. *BUT* what good is a bunch of hair on the head if your getting slapped in the face with your OWN tits when your on top of your girl? Not a very masculine look I would have to say.

 

 

hey Lifter,

 

did you ever juice? Im just wondering if that is a contributing factor to your over all concern with regard to estrogen levels...

 

Haha, yeah I hear that - I just went through a divorce. Was married at 22 - found out a bit too late she was a nut case. I have custody of both my children. I'm also involved with a ridiculously smoking hot 5'6" 23yr old 1/2 Portuguese and Irish Brunette now so my concern and over self conciseness about my hair is bugging me...lol

 

As for Juicing, yes - relatively heavy from 03 - 06. Has it accelerated my hair loss, more than likely. Though, I believe if your prone to MPB it would have happened regardless. Always went for blood work, was very dedicated to watching my levels. Only issue I ever had was good and bad lipids were out of whack (hdl/ldl)due to Arimidex, (an estrogen regulator) Ceased use, switched to another type of inhibitor and everything was A OK.

 

I 'm not going to advocate the use of AAS but to be honest the over all public perception / knowledge or lack there of has painted an ugly picture about "steroids" I am a moderator on a few well known AAS discussion boards, knowledge is key in that arena such as it is here - read, learn and make the best choice possible based on the knowledge gained and experience of your piers....I really see no difference in people spending tons of cash on plastic surgery to look better or informed adults using aas responsibly while maintaining a healthy life style in order to look better - hell, we are here now willing to spend a pretty penny on a hair transplant for the same reason right?

 

Anyway, I actually haven't run a "real" cycle in quite some time. I just never responded well enough for me to consider it worth it. Thats just the way it is, everyone's body reacts differently. For instance, some guys get gyno and need to counteract with an estrogen regulator due to the use of Finasteride some don't. I decided I don't need to run cycles anymore. I have been on Test Enanthate prescribed by my Doc @ 250mgs/EOW and I am stronger than ever at practically a replacement dose for my Natty test. I am just as big, 6'1" 265 @ 12% Actually stronger, I attribute that to my training regimen also(west side Barbell) and Maturity. I currently bench 535 Raw, pull 810 and Squat 765 equipment free. People don't realize how important food is to your body especially in body building. I grow so much better with a good diet than I ever could with AAS.

 

My levels are currently in the Normal range across the board. So in a way yes, I am concerned with using Finasteride because everything is so spot on I don't want to throw my system out of whack and have to combat it with anti estrogen. My HRT doc is willing to work with me if I decide to try Finasteride but I'm not sure I'm ready to take the chance yet, minimum risk or not.

 

I threw a little bit extra in my response, I tend to go off a bit, sorry for my winded answer :-)

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

..By the way, why am I the only one getting quoted here? I took it that I was the only one who had a perspective/view similar to yours (yet much less detailed due to not being as informed as you) regarding this matter? I have NOT taken it either out of a concern for some of the possible sides you mentioned...

 

I guess because everyone else answered with their experience. You showed a concern and interest in Finasteride and possible Estrogen problems along with your other similar concerns so I figured I would respond to you with the information I have gained about it.

 

And to everyone else thank you... ;-)

[notgoing2gobald]

Mmmmm...judging by your description of your new lady friend..."5'6,23,brunette" we have similar taste in women...

 

Juicing with respect to MPB: I believe your statement about juicing only "accelerating" the effects of those predispositined to MPB to be accurate. Look at Arnold. He was one of the early kings of juice. He still has a pretty full head of hair for his age, assuming he is not wearing a wig. However, there still is a significant argument against it. One could end up with their 65 year old MPB head at 35. That would certainly suck.

 

Juicing: did your doc "prescribe" it for you? If not, at the least he did the blood work and helped you moniter it, right?

 

Never tried it myself, but then again at my peak I was never at a "contestable" level. But, I don't really wanna stand up in a bikini in front of a bunch of dudes anyway so thats ok. Not knocking ya, Im sure there's more than a great deal of hot, young, petite brunettes there too (mmmm..yummmy!). I think I have pretty decent genes regarding this. Im Armenian and it was originally populated by the goergous goddesses' of the Mediteranian coming to Armenia (which was only populated by bulls at the time) which the women "knew" in a biblical sense; and hence: this god like, bullish, stallion build of mine (grins)...

 

Your obviously very knowledgeable regarding these physiological issues; which leads me to believe that your more concerned with the synergistic effects of juice and propecia combined on your system. No? Because I would personally be more concerned about the former than the latter of the two...

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

Mmmmm...judging by your description..."5'6,23,brunette" we have similar taste in women...

 

Juicing: did your doc "prescribe" it for you? If not, at the least he did the blood work and helped you moniter it, right?

 

Never tried it myself, but then again at my peak I was never at a "contestable" level. But, I don't really wanna stand up in a bikini in front of a bunch of dudes anyway so thats ok. Not knocking ya, Im sure there's more than a great deal of hot, young, petite brunettes there too (mmmm..yummmy!). I think I have pretty decent genes regarding this. Im Armenian and it was originally populated by the goergous goddesses' of the Mediteranian coming to Armenia (which was only populated by bulls at the time) which the women "knew" in a biblical sense; and hence: this bullish, stallion build of mine (grins)...

 

Your obviously very knowledgeable regarding these physiological issues; which leads me to believe that your more concerned with the synergistic effects of juice and propecia combined on your system. No? Because I would personally be more concerned about the former than the latter of the two...

 

Nooooo, you have it all wrong, I do not competitively body build, wont catch me on a stage wearing a Banana hammock! I'm a competitive power lifter, (not the typical fat ass) looking good is also a primary objective and yes, for the most part women love to grab me and molest me haha- then there are those that say I'm just too big, to be honest i never take that as an insult.

 

Like I stated, I do not "juice" anymore - well if you want to consider a replacement dose of testosterone by an endocrinologist juicing I guess you can. Before I approached an Endo for help my primary physician would order blood work at my request in order to monitor my levels. My free and bound test have always been below normal prior to any AAS usage. Using proper PCT (post cycle therapy) after all cycles and recovering properly to my "normal range" was always difficult so my primary decided to refer me to an Endo about a year ago. With my age and Natty test decreasing and had been off steroids for a year at that point and vast amounts of monitoring blood work my HRT doc decided to prescribe me Testosterone to get my body with in normal values.

 

So my use of an anabolic in conjunction with Finasteride really isn't a concern since I'm basically being supplemented with a replacement dose, really no difference being synthetic or natural. My primary concern to be honest is loss of strength. DHT is Basically the primary hormone that makes a man a man, here's an interesting article if you have time http://books.google.com/books?id=UPhdDEeQ_akC&pg=PA157&...TPnpN1PH_0#PPA152,M1

[notgoing2gobald]

sorry no offense powerlifter (regarding the bikini comment)...Im working off polishing a couple bottles of red here, wacha expect from me at this hour (grins)?...

 

your talking above my head here with some of this shit...not familiar with the different levels, and hormonal accronyms..."Endo" for example..."natty test"...sorry, not familiar with this...

 

since your so familiar with this stuff, let me ask your opinion on a product I bought (before I became a lazy ass the past couple of months) and never took. Wacha know about this: Methyl Masterdrol? Is that safe? Will it raise DHT levels? Never took it, but I got it at an over the counter local muscle shop, before I stopped lifting a few months ago...any ideas?

[MrJobi]

I really doubt Propecia will affect your lifting.

 

As far as juicing, all bets are off because that just sends you system into a hormonal nightmare. That WILL affect your hairloss if you are predisposed

[hairdude83]

i started taking propecia since two weeks. after reading this, i dunno to quit or stay on .. so far no side effects, but will mess my hormones? yeh

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

If you want HAVE to use roids and dont want hairloss ,there are only two you can count on. T-bol is the best Anabolic/ Androgenic ratio: >100:> Its ALL anabolic. Deca is the second but you cant use propecia with it and it does cause deca d ,if you know what that means. Everyone that I know that uses gear uses propecia. If you worried ,why not try a smaller dose of propecia and monitor your hormone levels .You can lower your dht levels without completley destroying them

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

T-bol ratio Anabolic 100 Androgenic 0

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

sorry no offense powerlifter (regarding the bikini comment)...Im working off polishing a couple bottles of red here, wacha expect from me at this hour (grins)?...

 

your talking above my head here with some of this shit...not familiar with the different levels, and hormonal accronyms..."Endo" for example..."natty test"...sorry, not familiar with this...

 

since your so familiar with this stuff, let me ask your opinion on a product I bought (before I became a lazy ass the past couple of months) and never took. Wacha know about this: Methyl Masterdrol? Is that safe? Will it raise DHT levels? Never took it, but I got it at an over the counter local muscle shop, before I stopped lifting a few months ago...any ideas?

 

 

I haven't used it, nor do I have experience with it. I would have to look at the label to see what the active ingredients are to give you an idea whether or not it might have anabolic properties that might raise DHT levels.

[notgoing2gobald]

Powerlifter,

 

do you agree with PGPs' notion that T-bol does not raise DHT levels? Do you think its safe?

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:

If you want HAVE to use roids and dont want hairloss ,there are only two you can count on. T-bol is the best Anabolic/ Androgenic ratio: >100:> Its ALL anabolic. Deca is the second but you cant use propecia with it and it does cause deca d ,if you know what that means. Everyone that I know that uses gear uses propecia. If you worried ,why not try a smaller dose of propecia and monitor your hormone levels .You can lower your dht levels without completley destroying them

 

Well, the least androgenic would be EQ, Deca, Var, primo and t-bol. Deca is very hard on HTPA, maybe a small dose 400mgs or so with 40-50mgs of T-bol would keep the sex drive up. I haven't used T-bol, though most that have report decent gains with minimal hair loss if any.

[notgoing2gobald]

so basically you always run the risk of hair loss with any of these products even if you are on propecia, right? I would pm you but Im having trouble accessing the email account I have linked to this one. I'd like to know more about this stuff. Cause I'd like to get back into the gym and wouldn't mind a little boost or kick in the ass from these products. You tried NO2?

[OS-PWRLFTR]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

Powerlifter,

 

do you agree with PGPs' notion that T-bol does not raise DHT levels? Do you think its safe?

 

Does not convert to estrogen or DHT, one of the safer oral's

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

1 T-BOL

2ANAVAR

3PRIMO

4 EQ

5DECA

This starting with the safest for hairloss.

Ive known 6 people to use tbol and none of them had any extra loss AND kept their gains when finished.