rp1979

please count me in also.

I have respect for everyone here. This forum is so effective at keeping the shills at bay that I really don't recall the last time an obvious shill did try to slither in.

I know everyone is working hard to keep this site the great work that it is. But there have been a number of recent occasions where the GOOD passion of this community has UNDERSTANDABLY caused it to be a bit overly and cynically skeptical and as result, unwelcoming to new posters who just innocently want to cherish and share that joyous moment of getting a life-changing HT (you guys remember and can relate to that moment, right?). So in that regards, I see where spoon is coming from totally. Below are some concrete examples. Please read them I would like to hear your thoughts:

1).

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/albumcomm...6060861/m/2401031123

2).

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/746...861/m/8941030991/p/2

3).

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/746...861/m/4531004913/p/1

Bill and spoon, why do you hate each other so much? I have seen many threads in the past where the two of you battle it out and then telling each other to take hike.

I see where you're coming from with the need to question the unknown. But the fact that B spot and Pat both agree that Dr. Gabel is a good doctor just probably means Hair to Style is on cloud nine from his recent HT wanting to spread his enjoyment.

You both have been around for a long time helping hairloss sufferers. I being a noobie have learned a lot reading both of your posts and find that at the end of the day both of you have nothing but good intentions.

Originally posted by Pat - Publisher of this Community:

Currently some of the forums are dominated by a handful of clinics that are proactive on the forums. Thus clinics earn reputations not based on their actual work but visibilty. Patients end up fixated on one handful of clinics and miss the big picture.

I think that statement is spot on.

It is really a double edge sword. Most consumers are rightfully lazy to really independently verify ALL of the quality HT doctors that are out there. So websites like HTN provides a very good filter.

At the same time, a lot of quality clinics, those who are mentioned and not mentioned on HTN, find that they already have more than enough work/business to warrant the need to actively promote themselves online.

I mean it is not surprising that all of the clinics most people TALK about are those that market heavily by having employees posting in the forums, flashing internet banner ads, good-looking models in the after pics, offices around the world etc. I'm not trying to discredit any quality clinics that engage in such practices. It's just that sometimes the pudding does have extra sugar - which is probably what most consumers want.

Looks very nice, Tom. Congrats!

You got a massage during your procedure? That's sweet! Who gave you the massage? The technicians? How on earth did they keep your head steady while they were giving you the massage?

Please post your progress in the coming months. Do you have any pics of your donor area?

Heal well, Tom. Keep a hat on while in Bangkok. The sun can be pretty harsh there so don't get burnt.

Here we go again. There's always someone who gets jacked up with a little civilized debate. This forum is one the best places for discussions so let's discuss!

Robert_ posted:

OK, I've been away for a little while, but last I heard GSK never released the dutasteride studies to the public so no one actually KNOWS the results and why they never brought it to market as a hair loss medication. I can say I KNOW that it works because I've been using it for years, but I've never seen the actual studies other than a few small, independent ones. Do you know of some that I don't?

First of all welcome back, Social Drinker, hope are enjoying your free head of hair. Now, the motivation of my posts was to encourage people to seek information from published sources in ADDITION to information by words of mouth on the forums, which at times is second hand information. Then decide if something is worth a try or a mere scam. When dutasteride first came into the scene back in 2005/2006, why did you decided to switch to dustasteride back then? How did you know that dustasteride will work for you back then? Eventhough "GSK never released the dutasteride studies to the public so no one actually KNOWS the results". You based your decision to switch on the published information that was available rather than solely relying on what people said in the forums. Have you read this study?:

Olsen et. al. in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology 2006; 55(6): 1014-1023, which showed the benefit of combined type I and type II 5???±-reductase inhibition in the treatment of male pattern hair loss in a randomized, placebo-controlled study of dutasteride versus finasteride. (I can't provide direct hyperlink but can try to get you a pdf if you wish)

My point is when dustasteride was found to be beneficial eventhough it was not fully studied nor labeled to treat hairloss, you TRIED it and it worked for you. In this field of medicine, nothing is a 100% exact science. At the end of day you just have to do as much RESEARCH as you can to see if it's worth it and safe for you and JUST TRY IT, especially if everything else fails.

Robert_ posted:

If you want to slather yourself in Revivogen and roam the streets then go ahead for all I care.

Thanks for the laugh.

Robert_ posted:

However, until I see more than the mild anecdotal evidence that says that it works, I'm not going to recommend it in good conscious.

So Social Drinker, for those patients who do not respond to or experience side effects from finasteride/dusteride/minoxidil, patients who are too young for finasteride, or female patients with hairloss. What do you suggest they try in terms of non-surgical treatments? Nothing? Don't even give the FDA-approved Hairmax lasercomb a try eventhough two coalition doctors and one recommended doctor of HTN recommends it?

Robert_ posted:

After years of trying this stuff, the only success stories that I've heard about have been from guys using other treatments (mainly Propecia or Avodart) in conjunction with the Revivogen. Now, admittedly that's not a scientific way to make an analysis but after several years of being on the market wouldn't SOMEONE be sharing success stories with Revivogen alone if it actually worked?

I mean it's hard enough to get people to even share their post-op HT hair counts for heaven's sake! Again I'm not promoting that you should place your bets on Revivogen if Fin and Min works for you. The point of this discussion is to question if Revivogen is a scammy snake oil as the thread title stated and whether should even be considered as an option if Fin and Min is not an option. I think it is something worth a try based on this study:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/study6.pdf

In addition, it is a well-known fact that it is best to attack hairloss from different angles: systematic DHT blocker, topical DHT blocker, stimulant, SOD, Antiandrogen. Perhaps Revivogen was beneficial to those men that you mentioned who were using both (Fin or Avodart) and Revivogen. Let's keep an open mind here.

Robert_ quoted:

The entire reason that I emailed them was that they were saying that Nioxin (not specifically the Nioxin pills) would increase hair loss. Bottom line, they were leading the guy to believe that Nioxin shampoo and conditioner was going to increase his hair loss. The statement was predatory and borderline libelous. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I sure wouldn't want to be told a half truth like that.

Do you believe anabolic steroids increases testosterone and thus increases DHT contributing to hairloss? If so, do you feel that it is unacceptable to infer that DHEA, which increases testosterone, increases DHT? "predatory and borderline libelous"? - I respectfully disagree.

Robert_ posted:

Because the science DOES back it up. However, the Revivogen product just seems to be lacking an adequate dose or chemical balance. I dunno, I haven't gotten around to testing it in my mad scientist lab I keep in my bathroom yet.

I see that you haven't lost your sense of humor, Social drinker. Well test the stuff in your bar that you built then. Is that thing still up and running? Grab a cold drink while you are at it and cool down for one sec. OK, so we are in agreement that there is REAL science behind Revivogen. So this product is not purposely designed to maliciously DECEIVE people like the other scammy products I listed in my initial post which that have no scientific backing. I would NOT put Revivogen in the same category as Nisim, Fabao 101D, Kevis, Hair Genesis, and Viviscal

. Again it is my opinion that Revivogen and the FDA-approved hairmax lasercomb are something WORTH a try if the standard treatments (Fin and Minoxidil) are not an option. AND THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING. As I said before that I don't use Revivogen because I am lucky that propecia and minoxidil is working for me.

Robert_ posted:

Why not? I expect SOME results of whatever I'm using. True, if it slows down hair loss then it is working. But how do you know that it's slowing your hair loss?

Robert, go ask any respected HT doctor if my previous statement is inaccurate: "With Finasteride and Minoxidil, we should NOT expect anything overwhelming or regrowth." I feel that medical therapy is intended to slow down or maintain what you got. Any regrow is a bonus but shouldn't be expected. To answer your question on how to assess treatment is slowing hairloss, YOU JUST HAVE TO TRY IT like Finasteride and Monoxidil and then try to make your best assessment.

Robert_ posted:

If you are having success with Revivogen then PLEASE let everyone know.

Didn't you noticed that I have repeated many times that finasteride and minoxidil is adaquate treatment for most patients? It is just my opinion that Revivogen (and the Hairmax lasercomb for that matter) is something worth a try for those people who cannot use Finasteride and Minoxil. And for those people who cannot take those meds and who are considering Revivogen, all I'm saying is read this published study and article to determine for YOURSELF if Revivogen is worth trying OR if Revivogen is a complete scam:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/study6.pdf

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/productreviews/men/revivogen/article02.htm

Extra knowledge is never a waste.

Robert_ posted:

You're right. The studies are right under your nose and it seems that you're the one that isn't taking the time to look. So I took the time for you, as requested

I have taken the time to find and read the study on the anti-DHT affects of Ketoconazole. My request for a hyperlink to the study isn't directed at you, I was merely calling out to the majority of the new readers/posters of this forum, most who blindly takes information without question (kinda like how I did when I knew squat about hairloss years back). This community has always preached the importance of research and I think it is important people take the time to read the published studies even for Finasteride and Minoxidil. You must admit that very few people even consider reading any published scientific studies and it is EXTREMELY infrequent in my years reading this forum that people post links to published studies backing what they claim. You have done a great service by posting that password-protected study of Ketoconazole and now people reading this forum can understand why and how Ketoconazole has anti-DHT affects. Thanks.

Robert_ posted:

If you'd rather not read my posts then fine, don't read them.

That above statement couldn't be further from the truth. I have read A LOT of your posts and I found them to be informative, genuine and some with great sense of humor especially that one when you demonstrated how to apply Dermmatch.

Who do YOU think made me consider Dr. Cooley and motivated me to fly from Boston to NC to get my HT with one of best? My HT experience couldn't have been better thanks to the info and opinions that you've shared (my immediate post-op pics are in my weblog if you care to see).

My post wasn't intended to attack or insult you and I apologize if you interpreted that way. This forum has helped to educate me well enough that I actually dared to question and start a debate with one of the veterans, like you. Sorry if I broke the unwritten code of conduct

Again I apologize if you were insulted and if you are still mad, next time I'm in NC I'll buy you a beer and if need be you can try giving me a couple of knuckle sandwiches.

Regards,

RP

It boils down to this: Unargueably Finasteride, Minoxidil and Dutasteride are the ONLY medications that have been subjected to a double-blind clinical trials at studying hairloss. For most people the above treatments are adequate. Period.

BUT what about those poor souls who cannot take the above medication because they experience side effects? Are you all saying that there is nothing for them worth trying?

Robert_ posted:

Bill and everyone else,

 

Remember this thread about Revivogen?

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/showthread.php?t=137454

Yes! I remember this thread very vividly. You, Robert_, said in the thread: "As far as topical DHT blockers, Revivogen seems to be on track. Its use of copper peptides and fatty acids has a good bit of science behind it. ". This is the thread that triggered me to go and read the published study I mentioned on Aliphatic Fatty Acids.

RObert_ posted:

You have to read just about all two pages of the thread to tell what's going on, but basically it was me emailing the company to call their bluff on some borderline libelous things they were saying about Nioxin and then later hiding behind a statement to the effect of, "Well, we were generalizing..." or something to that effect.

Robert_, your letter to the Revivogen customer service only questioned on whether "DHEA (in Nioxin) increases DHT production" and that is it! The Revivogen rep replied to your letter saying that the "statement is a general statement" in other words the statement is a plausible inference kinda like how we all generalize that anabolic steroids increases testosterone and thus increases DHT: http://www.regrowhair.com/general-hair-loss-topics/caus...htlifting-hair-loss/

Robert_ posted:

At any rate, I've never heard of any one that has had much or even any success using Revivogen.

So why did you, Robert_, said that: "The thing about Revivogen is, that the science really backs the product up. It really should work well as a topical DHT-inhibitor. I have heard of success stories, but nothing really overwhelming."

The fact is that with all hairloss medications, including Finasteride and Minoxidil, we should NOT expect anything overwhelming or regrowth. If the medication slows down the balding process then it is working. Period.

One last thing. Can someone please give me a link to a published study proving that NIZORAL shampoo have any positive anti DHT effects? My point is most people get their info from words of mouth (nothing wrong with that at all) rather than going straight to the published scientific studies (which are all under our noses). I know most people don't have the time, but it is sad, IMO, that a lot of people don't take the time to read the published studies because accurate information and knowledge from the ACTUAL SOURCE will set you free.

I'm not trying to stir up any troubles, but let's get back to original question of the thread: Is it fair to call Revivogen or the FDA-approved Hairmax Lasercomb for that matter a "SCAM" compared to products with no scientific backing such as, Nisim, Fabao 101D, Kevis, Hair Genesis, and Viviscal?

-----------------------------------

My regimen: Finasteride + Minoxidil

Cooleyfied w/ 5130 hairs on 5/23/07

I'd be interested to hear what Mrjb, who had 3 surgeries with Dr. True, have to say in response to Bill's remark on Dr. True. For that matter, does anyone know why Mrjb, being a veteran and highly-repsected member of HTN, does not post any pics of his surgery? Is it because of privacy issues?

Bill, did you ever considered going to Dr. Shapiro? Or to Dr. Feller since he is in NY also like Dr. True and close to PA? If so, why didn't you?

The bottom line is Shampoo's do not regrow hair.. If it leaves your hair feeling and looking good fine but regardless of who is using it , it will not prevent loss..

Just wanted sure we are on the same page. I assume we are talking about the Revivogen Scalp Therapy topical (i.e. the one you use the dropper to apply) and NOT the Revivogen Shampoo/Conditioner. They are two different things. Only the former contains the DHT blocker, Aliphatic Fatty Acids that was talked about in this study:

"Inhibition of Steroid 5alpha- Reductase Activity by Aliphatic Fatty Acids", Niederprum, Schweikert, Thuroff, and Zanker, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 1995 September 30; 768:227-30.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/productreviews/men/revivogen/article02.htm

Again, I do not use Revivogen and have no personal experience with it.

The only items that do are Propecia and Monoxidil..

Dutasteride (GSK Avodart), while not labeled for hairloss, is also scientifically proven to regrow hair. Many coalition doctors prescribe Dutasteride.

As for the Hairmax Lasercomb, I do not use it, but for those who want to read what the FDA's website says. Here is a link:

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf6/K060305.pdf

Dr. Bauman supports the use of the lasercomb:

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/146.../m/3691004603/p/1%0A

It seems Dr. Glenn Charles also supports laser therapy:

http://www.charlesmedicalgroup.com/Procedure/laser.php

Dr. Feller and Dr. Rassman both have been vocal and skeptical on the lasercomb:

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/346.../m/1891081303/p/1%0A

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/146...461019023#9461019023

Any scientific evidence aside, rp1979, don't you think it's more than a little suspect that the article advertising Revivogen says:

 

"The HairMax LaserComb and Revivogen are an ideal combination for people with hair loss who don't want to use pharmaceuticals to regrow their hair."

HLBD,

All I'm saying is for patients who are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Too young to be prescribed Finasteride

<LI>Patients who do not respond to and experience side-effects from Finasteride and Dutasteride

<LI> Female patients who cannot take Finasteride and have very few options in terms of DHT blockers

products such as Revivogen and Hairmax laser comb for that matter are probably their best options in conjunction to Minoxidil for maintaining their hair.

So to answer this thread's title on whether Revivogen is a scam, I think it is not a scam compared to products such as Nisim, Fabao 101D, Kevis, Hair Genesis, and Viviscal, which have no real scientific backing. Just my 2 cents.

I do not use Reviviogen and whether Revivogen works is debatable. However, there is real science behind Revivogen. I would NOT put Revivogen in the same catagory as the following products which are truely scams:

Nisim, Fabao 101D, Kevis, Hair Genesis, and Viviscal

The science behind revivogen is based on this study:

"Inhibition of Steroid 5alpha- Reductase Activity by Aliphatic Fatty Acids", Niederprum, Schweikert, Thuroff, and Zanker, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 1995 September 30; 768:227-30.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/productreviews/men/revivogen/article02.htm

For patients who are too young (i.e. 18 or younger) for an HT or precription for an internal DHT blocker like Finasteride, I think Revivogen would be a good option in terms of DHT inhibitor for them until they are old enough to be prescribed Finasteride.

At 8 months, I do not think it is possible to see scabs that is a result from the original recipient incisions. As Mrjb mentioned, the scabs that you are experiencing could come from pimples that have popped/bled due to ingrown hairs and thus causing scabs.

It does not necessarily mean that the grafts were not placed properly nor are they dead. It is possible that you are a slow grower.

Most people start seeing growth anyway between 3 to 5 months, 50% growth by 6 to 9 months and final result of their HT by 12 to 14 months. However, there are other factors to consider like how many grafts you got and if you are taking finasteride to prevent further loss.

Looks good, Bill! You are definitely seeing growth. Can you give us your personal thoughts/comments on your progress thus far? Thanks for posting your progress. Please continue to do so.

Nick,

I live in Boston. After extensive research and after doing consultations with a few local HT doctors in Massachusetts, I came to the conclusion that there is no one locally worth going to in my opinion.

I don't know of Dr. Ahn, but these are the questions you must ask him and if the answer is anything other than a literal "YES", run like the wind:

1). Do you use microscropes to dissect grafts?

2). Do you use custom-made incision blades?

3). Do you perform Trichophytic donor closure?

I suggest that you have a consultation with Dr. True who is highly-respected and does sugery in NYC but has a consultation office near Copley in downtown Boston. I myself had a consultation with him, and he was highly professional, articulate and all round great guy. He would be your best bet if you don't want to travel far for a top quality in-office consultation. There are also other excellent doctors in NY such as Dr. Bernstein and Dr. Feller, but unfortunately none in Massachusetts.

Living in Boston myself, I actually decided to fly to North Carolina to get my HT with one of the best. Good luck.

Is this the thread you guys are talking about?

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/346...471006113#7471006113

Middleson,

Reading your post was really encouraging. I recently had a procedure with Dr. Cooley also about month ago in May. I did a fair bit of research before picking a doctor and going forward with the procedure.

I told myself before hand that I wasn't going to be one those people who stare at the mirror 24/7 waiting for his grafts to grow every waking moment.... How wrong I was. I truely understand now how hard the waiting process really is.

So here I am waiting. A little bit nervous and very excited at the same time.

RP

Do you think soft hairline and hard hairline are antonyms and thus defining one will define the other?

Perhaps the definition of soft hairline should include the phrase:

"gradual transition from finer single hair to thicker single hair"

I for one have very coarse hair. When I did a consultation with Dr. Paul Rose, this is what he wrote to me in an email on March 5th 2007:

"You noted that you have coarse hair and this has positive and negative aspects relative to the procedure. Coarse hair provide more coverage per hair. On the other hand the surgeon must be careful to pick out the finer hairs that can be used in the most beneficial aesthetic way at the very front and temporal areas. This is something I believe that we excel at."

Hair23,

Comparing your before pics that you posted here:

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/showthread.php?t=152122

your results look excellent, IMO.

RP

3.5 months prior surgery I stopped buzzing my hair and let it grew. I'm 1 month post op now and so haven't cut my hair for over 4 full months. This is what I asked my barber to do which worked. I asked him to trim my hair with a guard 4 then asked him to blend and touch things up with normal scissor and the thinning scissor (don't how you call those), whereby the barber has more control. Try to find a barber who is good with scissors. Also I trimmed my beard to a goatee. The look kinda works for me.

Anyways, I can't believe it... I am so dumb I just got the connect of your screen to the musical HAIR!! I love that musical!!

finnari,

Sorry to hear about the mix up you experienced. I agree with you that there could have been more organization and diplomatic handling of the situation on part of the clinic.

However, I don't know if we should automatically equate paying the full amount two weeks prior surgery as a bad and unethical way of doing business, especially if the patient knew of this in advance.

Just looking at the several COALITION clinics alone that I've consulted with:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Some charge $5/graft some charge less.

<LI>Some provide travel allowance some don't.

<LI>Some charge $1000 deposit some charge $500.

<LI>Some clinics when you are doing phone consultations, you don't get to talk to the doctor while others you get to talk a lot with the doctor directly over the phone.

<LI>Some charge for even an office consultation in cities that are not their primary base.

<LI>Some offer a discount to get a procedure done by another doctor within the same clinic.

<LI>In some clinics you primarily deal with the patient educator/consultant, in other clinics you deal with the doctor directly whereby you are given the doctor's personal cell phone number after surgery that you can call in the weekends/evenings. Some doctors don't give out their personal cell phone numbers to patients.

As you can see from the above list, the way and personal style in which various coalition clinics operate can be quite different. In other words, look at the WHOLE PACKAGE of what you will be getting.

From my research with Dr. Keene's clinic, you will get a lot of personal attention from her directly. It seems like she will be in the operating room most of the time compared to other clinics, assisting placing grafts, talking to you and answering questions and being by your side all the way throughout the entire procedure - this personal attention should count for something.

This forum has always preached about not letting money/expenses/travel being a deciding factor to such a huge decision such as an HT procedure. Because at the end of the day, "There are somethings money can't buy, for everything else there's debit mastercard."

I also saw your other pics in the photo album and I like them very much. Your hairline looks very natural on you. Technically, how do you think this soft hairline is achieved? Do you think it is a matter of carefully selecting finer hair for the hairline? Using a stick-and-place method at the end of the HT session? Thanks for sharing your progress.

They do work in the front. I know this from personal experience as well as talking to doctors. Rogaine for example, cannot LEGALLY advertise that it works in the front because the study only looked at hair around the vertex. I think is also the case with Propecia.

I have consulted with both Dr. True and Dr. Bernstein. I liked them both. They were very professional and articulate. My opinion is that both doctors are fairly conservative (perhaps Bernstein is a bit more), but it does not come without foundation. They prefer not to take too high of a risk and rather err on the side of caution.

With True, I liked his artistry with hairlines and his flexible but cautious approach.

With Bernstien, I was impressed with his credentials i.e. being board certified in dermatology as well as having a background in plastic surgery, which I'm sure comes in very handy when doing repair work. I believe Bernstein's clinic does a lot of repair work.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. Good luck. -RP

Peter,

From your pics and degree of hairloss, I don't think you need to worry about shockloss in the recipient area. The cosmetic outcome of an HT would far outweight any potential impact from shockloss. Diffuse thinners like myself should be more worried about recipient area shockloss.

As for shockloss on the donor area, from my research and from what doctors have told me, this is rare on a virgin scalp with average to good laxity. So unless you have a really tight scalp, don't think you need to worry about that also.

All of the above assumes that you pick a well-respected doc.

When I started my research on HT, I was REALLY scared about permanent shockloss (in recipient and donor area). But when I discussed shockloss with several coalition doctors during my consultations, I got the sense from them that permanent shockloss was something of a non-issue these days... as if it was an uncommon occurence.

What did the docs the you consulted with say about your potential for shockloss?

RP

Originally posted by rp1979:

Obviously it's impossible for the doctor to place all the grafts. BUt after all the grafts from the pre-punched incisions have been placed, some patients prefer that the doctor do a final "stick and place" at the very end for refinement to areas such as the hairline for the last 100 grafts or so i.e. make an incision, place a graft, make an incision, place a graft... etc.

It's a personal thing, I think. For me I rather have all aspects of my expensive meal prepared by the head chef, eventhough his assitants could be just as qualified.

This topic has been quite thoroughly discussed in this thread. Let us know what you think:

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/346...661007013#7661007013