PerfectFew

Something I have seen on another site (hairlossdoctorlist.com), which I think is a great way of being truly "transparent" is to follow something like this: "This website exists for the sole purpose of educating the public about hair restoration surgical and non surgical and to become aware of the physicians who offer hair transplantation. It is up to each individual to do their own investigation and due diligence in determining if hair restoration is right for them and who should perform the surgery for them. Physician members are encouraged to maintain ethical advertising standards and disclosing to prospective patients if they are featured on any other forums or websites and to disclose any monetary cost for being featured as a recommended physician." What do other members think about this? Would you agree that it is more ethical? I would like to see something similar here. It would be nice if the owner of this site who profits from it not post recommendations. It is a conflict of interest, and a biased opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

Something I have seen on another site (hairlossdoctorlist.com), which I think is a great way of being truly "transparent" is to follow something like this: "This website exists for the sole purpose of educating the public about hair restoration surgical and non surgical and to become aware of the physicians who offer hair transplantation. It is up to each individual to do their own investigation and due diligence in determining if hair restoration is right for them and who should perform the surgery for them. Physician members are encouraged to maintain ethical advertising standards and disclosing to prospective patients if they are featured on any other forums or websites and to disclose any monetary cost for being featured as a recommended physician." What do other members think about this? Would you agree that it is more ethical? I would like to see something similar here. It would be nice if the owner of this site who profits from it not post recommendations. It is a conflict of interest, and a biased opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

Mr. Nervous, I want to hear the truth. The doctors do not want to be on this site. That is the nature of extortion. This site is nothing but advertising. Just tell the truth! They don't seek him out. He seeks them out. People are just now starting to see the reality. Pat makes a lot of money by leaching off of these physicians. Making money is fine, so long as you are willing to state it clearly.

Nervous Nutsack, I'll believe that when I see it.

Pat, Have you asked the following doctors who are part of your list (including some on the coalition) why they are part of the Hairlossdoctorlist.com? I think it is great that you recommend them here. They are all fine doctors. Why would 4 of your "coalition" members choose to do this, if you say the other site is not ethical? Dr. James Harris, MD Dr. Bobby Limmer MD (coalition member) Dr. Bradley Limmer MD (coalition member) Dr. William M. Parsley MD Dr. Bernard Nusbaum MD (coalition member) Dr. Jerry Cooley MD (coalition member) Dr. Michael Beehner, MD Bill, Since you clearly posted a lie in the other forum about these doctors not meeting the standards here, would you kindly go back to the other forum and explain why you chose to defame them?

Pat, Have you asked the following doctors who are part of your list (including some on the coalition) why they are part of the Hairlossdoctorlist.com? I think it is great that you recommend them here. They are all fine doctors. Why would 4 of your "coalition" members choose to do this, if you say the other site is not ethical? Dr. James Harris, MD Dr. Bobby Limmer MD (coalition member) Dr. Bradley Limmer MD (coalition member) Dr. William M. Parsley MD Dr. Bernard Nusbaum MD (coalition member) Dr. Jerry Cooley MD (coalition member) Dr. Michael Beehner, MD Bill, Since you clearly posted a lie in the other forum about these doctors not meeting the standards here, would you kindly go back to the other forum and explain why you chose to defame them?

No, he lied. It is clearly obvious. It needed to be pointed out so that these fine doctors don't get defamed. I am a patient advocate. Until Pat comes out and clearly states the truth behind the "coalition" and the "recommended" doctors, I will continue to educate patients. I have made no accusations. I have substantiated proof. Why don't you just ask the doctors in question?

Nervous Nelly: A stand up guy would disclose the fees he charges. He would clearly state where he is promoting doctors for money, and he wouldn't "recommend" doctors publicly on the forum. He would leave that to the patients. It is a huge conflict of interest. By the way, I didn't show up out of the blue. The only reason I came to this site is because someone from this forum and Pat started it all by posting defaming posts in this forum about a competing forum. Then, they went to the other site and posted more defamation. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Pat & Bill showed up out of the blue, because the paycheck will be getting smaller. And very soon, it won't exist at all.

I agree. Don't forget Dr. William Parsley. Please Pat, enlighten us. One of your members "Bill" even went on the other site and posted lies saying they weren't listed here because they didn't meet your standards. What Bill did was probably slander, and could even warrent a defamation lawsuit. The fact is, they are listed here. Can you enlighten the public forum here about why they would join the other site (hairlossdoctorlist.com)? Can Bill enlighten us as to why he LIED in the other forum?

*Yawn*. You are going to have to do better than that to deflect my logic. You really think the readers of this site are going to believe I'm being paid off? I've already openly admitted that I have applied for a recently posted paid position...but I've been here for almost 3 years. Read all my posts (all 2900+ of them) and tell me what you think then. Anyway... Your doctors pay a fee for your site too...see my number 2 that I already wrote: 2. How is the hairlossdoctorlist funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee. Try again. Bill yawn... I see you went and posted lies in the other forum. You claim the doctors there didn't meet the standards here. COMPLETE LIE. Wow!!! Those doctors are also listed here!!!! Please be careful. Your lies can get you into LEGAL TROUBLE. Here are the facts: A) I inquired. Doctors pay $200 per month to be "listed" on the other site. That is a very nominal fee. They are not recommended in the forums by the owner of the site. They are paying for advertising, and do not receive special treatment. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE? Readers: Don't be fooled. B) Pat charges $600 per month for listing and $16000 per year to be in the "coalition". If you add up the numbers, you will see it is nothing short of extortion and deception at its worst.

From the hairlossdoctorlist site: 1. Be a member in good standing of the ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery) for a minimum of 3 consecutive years. 2. Must practice within the United States of America. 3. Member Physicians must perform all his own patient consultations. 4. Members recognize that hair transplantation has evolved over a number of years and commits to continuing his/her medical education. 5. Must be willing to share high resolution before and after pictures with his/her prospective patients and offer patients the opportunity to speak with other patients at their request. 6. Members must not allow employees of their practice or other paid independent contractors to post in the forums because of obvious conflict of interest. Remember what I said about the ISHRS above? Now look at number 1 above. Good standing of the ISHRS simply means that they keep their medical license and they pay their fees. Look at number 2. What does location have to do with the skill of the doctor? I have absolutely no problem with physicians performing their own consultations, however, the use of consultants does not necessarily indicate a poor clinic. Need proof? Look up Hasson and Wong, or Feller Medical and look at their work. Often times they use consultants. If you take the time to research these two clinics, I think you'll see what I mean! In closing... Readers...don't be deceived. Some of the doctors listed here have been rejected by other communities NOT because they aren't willing to pay a fee (since they are obviously willing to pay a fee at the hairlossdoctorlist), but because their work is substandard and can't compete with other more qualified physicians. I share this all with you because I want to see patients make educated decisions and think wisely before they just believe the hype from bitter doctors who didn't make the cut. Bill Proud PATIENT AND MEMBER of the Hair Transplant Network. To date I have NOT been paid for any information, service, or postings I've done in ANY community. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up. Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

Again, your opinion means absolutely sh@t to me and probably about the same to many others. Goertz is at the top of his game. And I wish he was paying me a fortune. I would probably be doing something more meaningful than debating "opinions" with someone who doesn't even know my doctor, has never met him and certainly knows very little about the field. By the way, my name is not Jesus Christ. Anyway, as you stated, we are "balding brothers", and for that I am happy you enjoy your results also. By the way, Shapiro is actually a great doctor. I compliment him as well... he could be one of those in the top 3, based upon the results I have seen of his patients. Best Wishes

Please run an IP lookup of me. I am not now, nor have I ever been Dr. Goertz. I have suspicions about your identity (Jotronic/Pat/Hasson & Wong et al). By the way, I live in Gold Bar, Washington. My surgery was performed by Dr. Goertz in Bellevue, WA. He did an incredible job. My apology to you: I am sorry for mistaking your identity. You seem to post here so much, I wonder about your identity. I'll be happy to prove mine. How about you? If you are not getting paid, I'm sorry. It really sucks to not be paid to be a schill for Pat's web site. I am sorry you are not sharing in the HUGE PROFITS he is making. I am happy that life for you is good. I once had no hair. Now I have lots, and it has completely changed my life. My results are great and I finally got what I want. I never had the "misery" of going to a bogus physician because I did TONS of research and didn't rely on just the anonymous opinions of people who post here. Best Wishes

Well, I no longer have to worry about people taking you seriously anymore. Any shred of weight people were giving your posts have now been tossed away. Bobby Limmer is a SOLID doc..... that is it. Well respected? Sure. Pretty good at what he does... absolutely. A doc I don't mind recommending to people who are unwilling to travel? Sure. Top 3? Your out of your f'ing mind. J I never said Bobby Limmer was in the top 3 numbnuts. Read my post carefully. I said my doctor is a personal friend of Limmer's. My doctor is definitely in the top 3. Do your homework, because "Your out of your f'ing mind". Bobby Limmer did not do my transplant, so I wouldn't have enough information to recommend him. I do know that he has contributed a HUGE amount of information to this field. Unlike others who CLAIM this (Bosley et al). If it wasn't for Limmer, neither you or I would even be posting to this forum because there would be no doctors to debate. They would all be installing plugs and the field would be in the "dark ages".

The ISHRS provides benefits to patients and physicians. Thats the difference. OBTW - How much do they charge? How are the dues taken care of? BIG DIFFERENCE Funny, Pat doesn't seem to think so. He recommends him, otherwise why would he take his money could it be Pat disagrees with his own "standards". By the way, don't bad mouth Limmer. His is incredible in his field and what he has contributed. He doesn't need to transplant anymore. I don't know Bobby Limmer, and I'm not part of the "good old boys club". I don't get paid to tell the truth here. H & W are just physicians. What have they contributed? I consulted there and didn't like the results that I saw. I didn't like the phony sales pitches I was seeing here by there "consultants" (paid sales people). As a satisfied patient with great results, I will recommend my doctor free of charge! I don't need $16000 per year to do it. And your point is? Paid "consultants" and paid "recommendations" are not real opinions and they carry very little weight when people discover THE TRUTH. Yes I do. I did my research. I am not now, nor have I ever been in the "dark ages of hair transplantation". My doctor cut the mustard nicely, thank you. Before you say anything about a doctor, why not talk to him in person? Why not VISIT HIS CLINIC. Pat recommends many physicians that he has never met. His "standards" are bunk. He is not telling people the truth. Nope. See the difference? Great! Me too. I want people to find out that sometimes they are being duped. Much like what is happening here. Good for you. I am sure you research all of your physicians by visiting there clinic, talking with their patients and witnessing the results. Or maybe you are just talking out of the side of your arse.

He wasn't just dropped from the site. Pat specifically made bogus statements about him being "substandard" to me. That is what keyed me in. I search through historical documents on the Internet to discover the truth. Pat bad-mouthed him because he wouldn't pay. He was not buying electricity. He was paying for being listed. Dropping him from the list is ok. Telling people he is substandard is a bold-faced LIE. By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

I am a patient recipient of follicular hair transplant. The costs for running a web site are extremely cheap. I can show you at least 100 hosting companies that will host a site for less than $100 per month. If the site goes down, you reboot the server. Moderation of the site is done by the site owner. I think it is great when HONEST people make a few bucks. Are Dr.'s Limmer, Cooley, Nusbaum or Harris handing out free transplants? No. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Now the problem I have with you is that your spouting about patient care and all of this other garbage, when the site you are associated is completely FLAWED in it's membership requirements. The ISHRS is the only reputable HT organization in the world. Ask all of the doctors in Pat's "recommendation" and "coalition" why they are all members. Yes, doctors. Nope, not perfect. That means nothing to me. I am using the Internet to discuss this right now. It is neither terrifying, nor are the words that I read. I can keep up just fine, thank you. I'm sorry you feel that way. Bobby Limmer invented follicular unit transplant. His opinion matters far more than yours. I am not getting paid to post here. I am doing it because this site is not being true to its readers. I can tell you that Pat hasn't looked at Goertz' work. I have. It is incredible, which is why he has one of the best practices in the world. I have referred multiple people to visit with Goertz and I didn't get paid a dime for it. I will not refer to the other two because I don't know them. Because he is not disclosing the truth. I did. What does that have to do with anything? Trained technicians should be placing the grafts. Most doctors (including many recommended by Pat) do not place the grafts themselves. Yes I do. Come see for yourself.

I am a patient recipient of follicular hair transplant. The costs for running a web site are extremely cheap. I can show you at least 100 hosting companies that will host a site for less than $100 per month. If the site goes down, you reboot the server. Moderation of the site is done by the site owner. I think it is great when HONEST people make a few bucks. Are Dr.'s Limmer, Cooley, Nusbaum or Harris handing out free transplants? No. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Now the problem I have with you is that your spouting about patient care and all of this other garbage, when the site you are associated is completely FLAWED in it's membership requirements. The ISHRS is the only reputable HT organization in the world. Ask all of the doctors in Pat's "recommendation" and "coalition" why they are all members. Yes, doctors. Nope, not perfect. That means nothing to me. I am using the Internet to discuss this right now. It is neither terrifying, nor are the words that I read. I can keep up just fine, thank you. I'm sorry you feel that way. Bobby Limmer invented follicular unit transplant. His opinion matters far more than yours. By the way, you seem to know so much about how those doctors have benefitted. Are you being paid to post here? Let me know please. Weinstein and Rousso? Goertz? Who could look at the work these doctors do and associate with them? Could you honestly refer a patient to them in good conscience? Bernstein is a good doc, except he hides under "conservative" and charges so much money to do anything, he is a waste of time. Now, I read in one of your self-righteous posts where you state that Pat is not a doctor and neither are any of the members. Why does that matter? If you have a problem with non-doctors, why don't you visit the Limmers? Neither one of the actually do any transplanting anymore. They draw lines and remove tissue on patients and then supervise their "stick and place" drones completing the process of transplantation. At 3 per graft and 2 patients a day, you gotta speed it up right? Oh, but it isn't about money....... You don't know what your talking about.

Hi Bill: I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view? By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told. I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth. You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

Hi Bill: I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view? By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told. I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth. You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

Thanks for the clarification. I am mistaken. I guess my comments should be directed towards Pat. Jotronic posts so much here that I naturally assumed he was paid for it (almost 1000 posts). My mistake.

Tell the truth Jotronic. They refuse to pay your THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. Why don't you just tell people how much you charge to be a member of the "elite"? How much do you charge Jotronic? Please tell your members!!! I know the answer and I am disgusted that you are not telling them the truth! The difference is that by using schills to pretend, you are not getting the truth. Consultants = sales people. This site allows and supports this phony tactic. PEOPLE PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!! That is the only reputable hair transplant association in the world. Doctors there are peer reviewed by each other and actually discuss science and reality. They don't extort. Nope. Just trying to bypass extortion. When you start sharing the THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS YOUR RECIEVE for promoting doctors with your members, you can call this forum "independent". Jotronic - this affects your paycheck. The days of extorting ethical physicians are numbered. The days of promoting unethical doctors and practices is numbered. Please tell people how much money you charge each "elite" doctor on your site. TRUTH IN ADVERTISING!!!

Not true. Most reputable physicians are abandoning this site due to the facade of advocacy it claims to be. When Jotronic's paycheck gets dwindled to nothing, then the real voices of patients will come out. That is a bogus fact with no basis in reality. Very few reputable physicians want to be associated with this site, and are taking measures to get out of being extorted. Ask the people who invented the follicular unigraft hair transplant if that is true. Credibility comes from real doctors, not paid schills. You will find only reputable, ethical physicians on the other site. The number is growing, and Jotronics paycheck will show it. Actually having real criteria for being judged reputable is what is important. Not paying extortion. Why support extortion? "standards for inclusion on this "network" = $$$$$$$$$ THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!!! I visited Hasson and Wong & Shapiro for a consultation. ***EXCEPT FOR SHAPIRO*** Their results are substandard. I suggest you go see their work, then go see others. Don't take the word of this forum. All of those doctors pay THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to get promoted here. Don't be had. Please, I beg you to go do your own homework. Yes, like doctors who invented it, perform great work and charge less. The critics on this site are PAID TO ENDORSE THE OTHER DOCTORS!!! DON'T BE FOOLED. Please do your own homework!!!!!!

Not true. Reputable physicians are trying to get out of paying THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to Jotronic to become "fit". In my opinion, promoting doctors by taking their money and pretending to be an advocate is a scam. Jotronic will likely delete this post, but if I can save one person from taking bogus advice, I have done my part.

People, I am sure that this post will get deleted, because that is how this site operates. True opinions are not welcome, but $$$ is. At one point in my life I visited this forum to learn about hair transplants and to find a good doctor. The doctors recommended to me at that time were not truly the best. After much research and some behind the scenes investigation, I found out that you are basically just "recommending" doctors based upon the THOUSANDS of dollars that you get paid by them. I found this out by speaking with very good hair transplant physicians. Some of them even use their own staff to post in the forums and pretend to be patients. Make no mistake about it people. Jotronic is MAKING LARGE SUMS OF MONEY FROM DOCTORS TO PROMOTE THEM. There is nothing more unethical than to call yourself an advocate, then charge money for advertising and promote only those that you see as "fit" (those who pay your fees). All of the reputable physicians in the industry have taken notice. This site does very little for the ethics of the industry. It lines pockets of those who are unethical. I have the proof to back this up. Anyone who wants to see the reality can contact me anytime. If you really want to find a decent surgeon, GO VISIT THEM FOR A FREE CONSULTATION. It is simple. See their work. Talk to their patients. ASK REAL DOCTORS ABOUT THE SCIENCE. Then, form your own opinion.