UGLY MAN 4 LIFE

Dopey

I'm from Australia and have sent you a PM.

Originally posted by pushing 40:

Here's some asswipe advice: shave your head, get on propecia, lift weights to muscle up, and wait a few yrs. From the pics at your age , it looks like you are going to be extensively bald. Anything you do now at this age in regards to surgery will probably be a major mistake. I've been reading every post on this forum for a while now. I do not have extensive balding and so only recently became aware of the signifigance of density issues thanks to some of these guys on here. I've also been drinking this morning because I just finished finals for the semester so I'm not even sure I'm really typing this right now.

Yeap, you are an asswipe.

Originally posted by whynot:

Yes it helps. I believe that a little more would be better in my case . perhaps 3000 overall, 2000 in the front 1000 rear. I am going to another consultation this week with a Dr Bernstein in Fort Lee New Jersey. Anybody know anything about this doctor? I had read some info on him but havent seen maybe before and after photos of this forum. thanks for all the help

You'll need at least 5000-6000 grafts. You can probably get it too if go to Dr. Hasson. Mind you, to get these sorts of numbers you'll have to have good laxity (scalp exercises!) and be willing to accept a longer than average scar (front of ear to front of other ear usually). If you stick around the forum long enough, you'll figure out that Dr. Hasson does the largest sessions. Since you want density, that's the first place I personally would look. The smaller sessions aren't a good idea for your case, IMO.

Good luck. Bernstein charges alot from what I hear.

Originally posted by boo radley:

Thanks guys,

I will probably pick up some Rogaine tonight...I hadn't realized that it is now available OTC. I'm not expecting too much from it, but it's better than doing nothing in the interim.

 

I'm also going to do two or three HT consultations...I'll start the ball rolling on that right away.

Any other comments?

 

Thanks again,

Boo

Do yourself a favour and only go to coalition docs that do large sessions. Feller and H&W are the only two that I know of. Many of the coalition docs prefer smaller session HT's and you'll be running the HT treadmill for 5 years if you go for the 1500 graft/procedure sessions.

Checkout www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/jcwhair as an example of what can be done with very fine donour hair.

Bottom line is you need to see the doctors in person (specifically those who do large sessions), and have them access you properly. I've seen alot of cases that people write off as inoperable that turn out not to be so once the doctor has a look.

you insinuate i was attempting to decieve him somehow or not give him the pictures he asked for!

Apologies for my attitude spex but it did seem that way to me at the time. If you posted your picture with a quick message about how to interpret it, then I wouldn't have jumped to conclusions. Again what I'm saying in no way has anything to do with Dr. Feller's work - he's an awesome surgeon. It's got to do with what I felt was exclusion of information. If this guy had just recently started researching HT's your first and second pictures look like you have a full head of dense hair - and that's what all pictures looked like to me when I first started researching.

So again, I apologise if you felt insulted.

Originally posted by spex:

Common Spex that's not out of the pool - that's damp at best. I've said many times Dr. Feller is a champ but there's no need to make out like you can give someone a full head of hair wet and dry from a small 32x2cm strip of hair from the back.

Please show me where i made out you can give someone a full head of hair wet/dry from 32x2 cm strip

You asked for wet pictures...I gave you wet pictures... sorry you feel they are not sufficient or acceptable to you - you can't say i did try!

You know damn right that he meant pictures from when someone goes swimming - NOT pictures where someone combs a brush that they've held under a tap through their hair. Who cares what you look like if you run a damp brush through your hair? NO ONE! Because no one walks around like that.

Common Spex that's not out of the pool - that's damp at best. I've said many times Dr. Feller is a champ but there's no need to make out like you can give someone a full head of hair wet and dry from a small 32x2cm strip of hair from the back.

Spex, why don't you post a photo of it soaked wet from above?

Originally posted by endoftherope:

I would really like to see pictures of some people that have received HTs but with their hair wet instead of blown dry. When the hair is wet, does it look like you're balding at all?

Most high level norwoods will have visible signs of MPB with wet hair.

Originally posted by lorenzo:

Jenn-24; You rather die trying to keep your hair? Thats crazy...I was on Rogaine for 2.5 years and yes it did worked a bit but unfortunately with time your body becomes immune to it. I lost every hair that I have gained and more.

Rogaine has alot of side effects;

The main problem with Rogaine is that it only works on hair loss at the crown. It does nothing for receding hairlines. The second problem is that it is overrated. Many people will see reduced hair loss at the crown with Rogaine, but few will see regrowth. The third problem is that it is a demanding routine. Rogaine must be applied twice a day, every day. Finally, and most disappointingly, after a while Rogaine loses it's effectiveness. After 3????“4?? years, Rogaine stops working

Headaches (in up to 40% of users), dizziness, itching, allergic reactions, heartbeat irregularities can also occur.

Also in women it can takes up to 12 months to show any results.

Rogaine if it does work it is temporary. Nobody knows the long terms effects of it. So be careful. I myself was also in a desperate state with hairloss and luckily had a successful transplant.

 

One more think Jotronic is Jesus??? I rather call him the messiah.....lol

 

Lorenzo

Rogaine works on all hair, it was tested and proved only for the crown so that's the only way it can legally be marketed.

Originally posted by nikkop23:

Yes, I tried to make it clear that I was simply stating opinions, but apparently objecting to the dense packing of 5000 grafts into the frontal third of a 23 year old was too much for them. Their threshold of hysteria is very low, as Shane's brief and ultimately doomed foray onto this site some months back demonstrated. Something about that thread I posted this morning about the 21 year old being recommended 2700 grafts really set me off, though. If you look at his pictures, all you really see is that someone needs to buy the kid a bottle of dandruff shampoo. But it's wearying trying to engage in discussion with several rational and literate posters, the Armani online gestapo, and dozens of cheerleading early 20somethings who've seen pictures and can't understand why they can't do the very same thing right away. Examine the threads at any length and it becomes clear that some of them don't even grasp the concept of finite donor hair yet. I think I'll take a break over there for a while....

Unfortunately, that concept won't be grasped that well until they see the first outlines of a NW5. Most of them don't believe it could get that bad.

Originally posted by troy:

That may be a record in one sitting Ht graft count, but it also looks like a record long strip. B, I would way rather have 3-4 Hts than a strip from one side of my head to the other. I also think that the scar could fall out of the sweet spot and one day the scar become an issue. My scar is small in length and I wouldnt want it any longer.

IMO I think doctors who are performing 3-4 sessions should be made to explain themselves or at least have the patient fully informed. I've seen a number of cases on this forum from coalition docs who I think, have overstated the densities patients can expect.

Originally posted by TrOjAn:

they are staying stubble. Does a late fallout also means late growth????

 

Originally posted by tkerr22:

not sure trojan, have heard from time to time some people don't have much fallout, have heard that others had theirs stay in for 2 months before they fell....are they growing or staying stubble??

Watch for the skin immediately around the follicle getting red ("redder" than the pink glow from the transplant). If that happends you probably want to be more forceful in trying to get them out. You don't want the skin in that are to be irritated by a follicle that's stuck or something.

You should probably ask your doctor about it though.

Hi Kevyn,

It's a nice hairline shape but you needed closer to like 5000+ grafts for the area transplanted. If Dr. Charles told you that you were going to look in any way non-balding then he was pulling your leg.

Originally posted by Pat - Publisher of this Community:

Over the years I have grown tired of watching how some physicians over sell unproven procedures on the forums, long before presenting them to their colleagues.

 

We'd all like to believe that BHT works. Some have wanted to believe it so badly that they have paid tens of thousands of dollars to be experimented on only to have dismal results.

 

Yet the physicians who took their money, while happy to foment excitement about such procedures online, were resistant to providing follow up regarding the many failures.

 

Thus BHT benefits from the patient's strong desire to have it work, even before there is proof.

 

In my opinion, at this point physicians who are experimenting with BHT should be offering it to their test subjects for free and reporting not only the initial surgery but the follow up.

I agree with that, although I haven't looked at all the doctors doing BHT, just one who I know does this very thing.

If I was a #6 or 7 and barely had enough for a "thinning look" hairline, I would try BHT for the rest--anything to get rid of a shiny head.

I agree. Its interesting how short sighted people are.

Originally posted by John_in_NC:

Originally posted by UGLY MAN 4 LIFE:

You'll look fine in two months, but I doubt the shockloss will have grown back if you have existing hair.

IMO two months is not enough. To be sure, you need three. With 3000 grafts, is seems like he is covering a lot of area, and with Dr Wong shaving, you might not grow it fast enough. Also, the native hair will most likely fall because of the dense packing and it will take 2-3 months (or longer to really grow,) so while no one will know, for a while you will look worse than before the HT.

Oh he'll be bald, I'm just saying his recipient will have healed. No scabbing, etc. The scar will still be red, he might look pinkish in the HT area but doubt it would be anything major.

You'll look fine in two months, but I doubt the shockloss will have grown back if you have existing hair.

Domie,

You look absolutely fantastic. It's nuts how great you look. BTW - what did Dr. Wong think of your hair type? Were you above average in terms of shaft diameter and texture?

With regards to splitting the grafts up, would the additional scar tissue surrounding the grafts somewhat limit the proximity of their distribution in the recipient? So basically I'm asking, can you plant them as Dr. Feller suggested without sqeezing them into slits that are too small or in some other way compromising the yield?

Originally posted by Gorpy:

Hi Joe, H&W definitely produce spectacular results. I am however curious. You say H&W do not break down bigger grafts into smaller grafts to inflate graft counts... Was that Clintonesque speach meaning you do break down larger grafts but for valid reasons, or that you simply don't break down larger grafts ? If at least one of your techs didn't ever leave 4 haired fu's intact, was she eroneously cutting grafts she shouldn't have or is that standard policy?

 

Keep in mind that if you do break them down, I'm not being critical. Based on your resuls, maybe that's a better philosophy (lots of smaller grafts densly packed). It could be the preferred method of the future. Sorry, but as B-Spot says, until you give hair counts that perception is going to exist. Based on the pictures you have shown, you say that if this patient had received only one's and two's it would not look as dense. Well, I don't know about that. That's a heck of a lot of grafts.

 

Based on my knowledge and what Janna said, you must use differing blades for 3 and 4 hair fu's. You would, therefore need to count them in order for the doctor to make the proper sized incisions. Doctors make the incisions during the long and tedious graft trimming process. It is at this time that the techs are calling out numbers that the doctor is using as a guide for incision making.

 

Again, thanks for your input. I think as patients become better informed their their thirst for knowledge of such details increases. Oh, and how many incisions are actually made with a pool queue at your clinic? Just kidding

Wouldn't logically it be better for H&W to understate graft counts? So they lose a few hundred bucks per surgery but gain massive market share because their results look so fantastic for such small numbers. Hyping up the grafts and not provding the results is stupid and will lead to people speculating about yield problems - that's not a positive thing to differentiate yourself on, you're better off doing and saying nothing.

Originally posted by Landen:

Well you can always continue to walk around with your infinitely "natural" results (AKA bald) and go with that. Whatever floats your boat pal

 

You seem quite hostile. Don't let your emotions get the best of you it is simply a matter of different philosophy and it is up to the consumer to decide what is best for them. But to do this they need to see both sides of the story. There are TWO sides to every story.

 

They have good and bad results like every other top doc. The difference is the presence of patients on the forums. It is quite bizzarre behavior that you don't see from other docs. For some reason they have motivation to hang around the forums, almost to the point of policing them as I see you are sort of doing to an extent. Other docs like to stay low key and that is a good thing if they don't want to get involve in the mudslinging for no good reason that goes on. This is once again where the domination of the forums marketing tactic comes into play.

 

On the forums I have seen them go on to silence their own( fellow recipient of transplant from their clinic) when they come to the board and are not satisfied with their result. The matter is quickly swept under the rug. Results posted are oooed and aaaaaawed if they are one of their own. Good results from other top docs are not necessarily criticized in all cases but there is always that belittling jab thrown in here and there so it doesn't shine like it rightfully should. From a sociological perspective it would be described as gang-like.

 

Jotronic catapaulted his clinic into the spotlight. He came along in early times of this industry, an industry with a dark history, and showed off his results. With his internet savvy, he became the orinal dominant presence on the forums and marketed his clinic to the top. It's none of my business but they owe him alot for what he did for them from a marketing stand point. Had Jotronic gone to any of the other top docs they could have done the same for him in terms of fixing his bad transplant as he is blessed with great elasticity in his donor that allowed for multiple strip procedures to get him to where he is now. Had Jotronic gone to another top doc they would have been the beneficiary of all of Jotronics marketing genious, the average Joe that got saved by his clinic. His clinic took off from his dominant presence on the forums. Had Jotronic poor elasticity in his donor, it would not have had such a happy ending and would not have been as lucrative for both parties involved.

You don't see it from other docs because their results are shit. Your other "coalition" docs are totally unimpressive with the exception of one or two doctors. The rest of them use tools that look like someone's been poking your head with a pool queue, plant the hairline with *visible* gaps in the hair - a good example here is the woman who recently had her hairline done and has her picture posted on the photos section. There was no need for a non-fpb patient to conserve donour. Furthermore, her HT will be THIN and I said just that. This simply shows a pathetic doctor not willing to do right by his patient. This woman will NOT be able to wear her hair normally like she may have had the chance to, had she gone to a decent clinic.

Joe Tillman did not originall work for H&W when he posted his first photos. You clearly like to view things one way, and you'll clearly have more of these weak points to add because you argue with the logic of a woman, so I'm not going to bother offering any logic backwards, I'll just tell you where you're wrong.

Originally posted by Landen:

There is no danger of running out of donor hair if the grafts are positioned wisely. Good clinics do not pack 5000 grafts into a hairline. That's nuts. Proper distribution with the future in mind is key and insures that the future will not be bleak for the patient should they lose more hair.

 

 

No there is a danger. A real danger as a matter of fact. You see as the years roll on the transplanted hair stays thick and strong as the unttransplanted hair recedes and miniaturizes. This is process goes unnoticed, and then the patient looks in the mirror and notices these grafts standing out more and more eventually to the point where it is blatantly obvious that it just doesn't look right. With the donor wiped out, good luck trying to fix it. That is poor surgical planning to exhaust donor reserves in one pass before the patient has COMPLETELY halted hair losss or you some how have a crystal ball and you can see the ultmate norwood level of the patient. It doesn't matter where the grafts are packed. In about 10 years we'll see who is right. 10 years isn't an eternity. There's something brown thrown against the walls, it sticking but it ain't mud.

 

That was a nice break down of price. In the end your clinic makes more and it was a smart financial strategy in the sense that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Time value of money allows your clinic to reap the benefits of earned interest and you don't have to worry about if the patient has a chance to see the grown out result, not like what they see , and not come back. Whether the patient wants to rush to the point of completion or not, it just isn't in their best interest at times physically and financially.

 

You have been in this game a long time so anything that anyone says, you can come back and say something else. You have been playing this hair transplant game for a long time and your paid to do what you do. You have vested interest. I don't make money from showing the other side of the story and I don't represent any doctor. I speak for all the top docs that can produce good results. Don't drive the economics of the hair transplant industry by running up the graft nubers to a ridiculous level in one surgery. Things change NOT for the good sometimes. Sometimes things are forced to change because people have demanded what they THINK is right because this is what is forced onto them. Even the good conservative docs must reach a point and change for the bad to stay in business.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with a decent moderate size procedure. See how it looks on YOUR head with YOUR hair characteristics. See how YOUR yield turns out. See where YOUR hair loss is heading. See if different technologies come about that are less invasive.

 

And don't cut the grafts up, if what i read is correct. Leave them alone unless you need to make a few extra singles for the front.

With inflation at around 3%, it would almost 7 years for your time value of money to count. So unless your crappy results last you 7 years (scoff, ROLFMAO, LMAO, etc, etc) you lose. Clearly you're talking a little bit out of your field on a number of topics.

Originally posted by Landen:

Quote: "The Shapiro Medical Group also believes in keeping all 3 and 4 hair follicular units intact and thus tend to have follicular unit grafts that contain on average slightly more hairs than Hasson and Wong."

 

What is there to dispute? These are not my words! And this has nothing to do with looking at photos on this site that are similar with equal results. Forget the photos. They mean nothing because you have different people with different characteristics.

 

The results don't speak for themselves. Take any of the top docs let them cut a huge strip out of the donor harvesting a bunch of grafts, let the techs insert them and you will have the same result in the same patient.

 

Forget about the pictures, forget about mega or super mega session, what matters is individual hair characteristics. A person with great hair characteristics will have an equally great result regardless of which top doctor they go to. This is why you hear hey that guy only had 2500 grafts but it looks better than this patient who had 4500 from this doctor.

 

High graft counts also give room for error. Throw a million soldiers into battle and your bound to have a good portion to survive, in theory. How many are actually lost who knows and who cares, except for the patient and his limited donor hair, and money too I guess.

 

This is where a conservative approach is much more ethical. Hey lets just wipe out all of this patient's donor in one sitting and say don't worry we planned and planted the grafts in such a way to account for future balding. O.K., well on down the line the meds didn't hold, HM, never panned out and now I am losing hair around these transplanted follicles in such a way taht it is starting to look funny. What does the patient do now after a 2 cm by 32 cm long strip has already been taken out of his donor. His donor is tapped out and his hair is looking strange. What a dilemma for the patient.

Well you can always continue to walk around with your infinitely "natural" results (AKA bald) and go with that. Whatever floats your boat pal.

double post