michael hofmann

2 minutes ago, Vann said:

If you don’t mind me asking who was the second guy or the person training? 

I really do not know. He is not working there

4 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I’m surprised they didn’t offer a repair. Unfortunately, cases like this exist at every clinic. But how these cases are handled is what matters. Op are you saying you’ve been given NO options? 

The whole story with this clinic 6-7 months after the surgery is  little bit of a joke. They invited me to their consultations in berlin and i went just because i wanted to hear what they have to say to me. 

They offered my to do a repair with 150 grafts, that means they wanted to take 150 grafts from the area above the Depletion and put them in the donor area. I have talked to many doctors after the surgery and they all told me that another hairtransplant is very difficult, i need at least 5000-6000 bodyhairs which i do not have and the result is not guaranteed.  This concept with 150 gafts was straight up bullsh*t.

I asked the guy why he told me that with my donor area they can go up to 6000 grafts ant their rep. answered me that he did not meaned that, he meant 6000 grafts counting the previous op that i had. This is straight up lie. 

I asked the guy why he did not checked my donor area at the first or at the second surgery and i did not get any answer.

I sawed him pictures of my donor area and asked him how did he came up with this idea doing two surgeries and he did not answered. Their rep. told me that they cannot evaluate this pictures, the pictures that they took at the day of the surgery.

After that their rep. came with another idea to do a repair with 500 grafts from the beard and some chesthairs too. He did not bothered to check the beard, which is also depleted, or if i have any chesthairs too.

Anyway i dont want to get more into details but the whole thing was sketchy and premeditated. Their rep. told me after the consulting by mistake that they were reccording the conversation. Probably being afraid of a lawsuit and after legal advice they invited me there and told some more lies to me. The director of the clinic even told me that from where i begin until now i have made a big progress, that he is the prasident of fue europe and i cannor question his ethics. 

Well a big liar and a real snake is what he is.

A couple of weeks after this consulting i got a call from their rep. asking me about my decision if i wanted to do the repair or if i wanted some money back. Otherwise we will have to go through the court because i went public with this and i should not because they did not did this intentionally. I explained the guy what the director was doing by the consulting in the second surgery, he was joking with the other doctor about the poor growth that i had, told me that i had to pay 2,7 euros for the unshaven op and never bothered to check my donor area. He then told me that he was ashamed too for what he did, which i do not believe by any means.

Melvin, this is not a bad case that every clinic has. This is fraud from the very beginning. At my first surgery by them the guy saw that i had severe Dermatitis and that needed to be treated before the surgery. He did not told me anything about it because de did not wanted to cancel the surgery. He checked my donor area with naked eye after they shaved my head and told me that it looks great, that they can go up to 6000 grafts, no serious doctor does something like that.

The second part of my surgery with them, making the incisions ant the implantation of the grafts in the crown which is supposed to be the difficult par, was not done by a doctor of this clinic but from a young guy who was there to do a training on fue. How can this be ok?

I have a big responsibility too because i believed everythig this guy told me and did not realise where i was getting myself into. This was all done for the money.

17 hours ago, HappyMan2021 said:

@michael hofmann any updates to this? I sincerely hope you have found peace or some sort of resolution with all of this

 

Hi, thanks man. No, unfortunately i did not found any solution to this. I am in a stage were i am scared to leave the house or look myself in the mirror. I wish i would have found you guys before making any decisions.

13 hours ago, Gasthoerer said:

I am sorry, that you have to go through this. Even though I see your case I little more ambiguous than you (which is of course normal). 

1. You are a poor HT candidate from begin with (high NW, mediocre hair to skin characteristic, mediocre hair diameter, skin disease)

2. You had poor growth from several transplants from different clinics and different methods. 

Without medication the HLC maybe should not have made a transplant performed to on you or should have stopped after their 1st. 

Maybe the thought the same as I did:

- The damage was already done (by the earlier transplants), therefore: why not be more aggressive?

To give a perspective: 

1. I think you will look better and more natural than before your HLC journey when this is said done and you optimize your hair style.

2. The extraction looks clean and nicely patterned after both procedures. 

3. Also the recipient looks clean.

4. Even though the growth is not a homerun, and the recipient looks affected it is not a botch job for me. 

I cannot comment to the poor communication of the clinic as this is highly subjective, therefore I see the following points: 

1. HLC might have stopped after 1st procedure (see possible explanation above why they thought to go ahead). 

2. They might have spread the second extractions more across the donor. More pics are required to evaluate if your status (NW, skin disease) limited the extraction zones.

3. In one of the pics the donor (on the right side) looks infected or inflamed. This could trigger shock loss. Please visit a specialist and have this checked. 

4. Think about medication. 

5. Optimize your hairstyle/length. 

6. From pure mathematical point of view, the donor has to get better over time not worse (even though shock loss can make it worse temporarily) as some of the hairs in resting phase come back. If after 8 month it is still worse, than there is some underlying thing going on. 

All the best and I hope you will find a good solution/peace. 

 

 

I have already told what happened. Before HLC there was no damage done and no big surgery. The reason for an overharvested donor area in no other but the gread of the doctor there to get more grafts and more money out of a patient. Unfortunately there are many scammers who pretend to be the doctors and the hair spezialist.

On 9/7/2022 at 2:20 AM, Vann said:

Hey OP any updates on your current hair?

This is 8 months after surgery, nothing really changed. They have really destroyed my donor area.

33 minutes ago, Raskolnikov said:

Let’s see here…

Why would they quote him 5000 grafts? Because he was basically bald from the hairline all the way to the crown. I saw it myself—it looked bad. To quote him anything less would be a job half-done.

Sure, in hindsight it’s easy to say that they should have asked for better pictures/videos of the donor. Even so, it’s very difficult to tell by pictures/videos alone. This is a risk that each of us incurs when we choose to travel abroad for a hair transplant.

Lastly, and most importantly: the sunk cost fallacy. Why didn’t they at least do 1500-2000 grafts since he’s “already there”? Again, 1500-2000 grafts wouldn’t suffice for his level of baldness. Assuming he booked his flights a few months in advance, and with the knowledge that he took a direct flight from Paris to Ankara (he told me so), his roundtrip tickets could be as low as $212. If anything, he is incredibly lucky that they had the integrity to not do anything to his head, even if it is undesirable for both parties.

 

https://www.google.com/travel/flights/booking?tfs=CBwQAhpJagwIAxIIL20vMDVxdGoSCjIwMjItMTEtMDNyCwgDEgcvbS8wanl3IiAKA09SWRIKMjAyMi0xMS0wMxoDRVNCKgJUTzIEMzI5MBpJagsIAxIHL20vMGp5dxIKMjAyMi0xMS0xN3IMCAMSCC9tLzA1cXRqIiAKA0VTQhIKMjAyMi0xMS0xNxoDT1JZKgJUTzIEMzI5MXABggELCP___________wFAAUgBmAEB&tfu=CmxDalJJY1VneVpIaGxVbmc0UlZWQlRVZ3hTMUZDUnkwdExTMHRMUzB0TFhkemRXUXhOMEZCUVVGQlIweDBVMDVOUmxSclZVRkJFZ1pVVHpNeU9URWFDd2pWbnhjUUFob0RWRkpaT0J4dzVxVUISAggB

You seem to know everything about this patient and what the doctors did. How do you know all this stuff? Were you there by his consulting too? I have to ask you again, do you have any proof of what you are saying and who you are?

56 minutes ago, Raskolnikov said:

23 year old American here. I am sitting in my hotel room next to HLC. I had 3005 grafts implanted on Wed/Thu. On Wednesday morning, I was instructed to go to breakfast at 7:30 am before the consultation and procedure. At breakfast, I sat with a 39 year old man from France. We chatted in broken English. He told me that he was planning to have 5000 grafts implanted over a period of three days. After breakfast, we both had our consultations. He went first. When he walked out of the room and it was my turn, I could see that he was visibly upset. As I would later find out from the patient coordinator, Ebru, the HLC doctors told him they wouldn’t operate on him because his donor area was too depleted. Sure, it sucks that this man came to Turkey for nothing, but I assure you that Dr. Ozgur and the team of doctors are very professional and run a tight ship—they aren’t here to steal anyone’s money.

Happy you can assure me about this and that you are running a tight ship. Omega5 is new to this forum too and he knows another patient with the same problem too, from america. Do you have any proof from what you are saying? Because i think i have prooved everything i have said.

25 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

@michael hofmann

What has the clinic said to you? Have they offered to perform scalp biopsy?

Honestly i feel you are missing the point and the problem they have caused me. I have made this thread to show the damage that this clinic caused to the back of my head. This is something serious and really hard to fix.

17 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

@michael hofmann

What has the clinic said to you? Have they offered to perform scalp biopsy?

At the consulting by the first procedure the Director asked me about it and i have told him that i have ekzem. Dermatitis. That is all about. No, they did not offered or said anything about a biopsy.

7 minutes ago, sukh123 said:

Again they’ve been doing manual punch for 20 years I think and have had good success in it. Manual has advantages in that you get a better feel of the follicle when extracting it, konoir one of the best follows the same method of stick and Place and manual , although I might be wrong . At the end of the day it depends on the doctors skill and not the method , and that is where you were let down . But given after your first procedure your donor was fine , you can’t call them butchers because it would have happened the first time. The second time is unfortunate and I understand your emotions, I think you have had bad shock loss and some bad extractions. Hopefully it. Does recover and if not wish you the best in finding a solution 

All the doctors that i have mentioned are doing manual punch for the last 20 years ant they are still taking this approach  in order not to damage the grafts. I do not get that point with the first and the second procedure. Are you telling me the butchers are doing this always at the first time? It is not that hard to find out if you had Schockloss or overharvesing after a hairtransplant. You go to a doctor and you let him examine photos from your donor area after the procedure and now. If you scan and compare this photos via computer you now exactly the problem and what has been done.  

Anyway, thanks for your opinion.

11 minutes ago, SeanToman said:

 

My friend, it might be worth considering going to a good SMP clinic to fix any patchy look to your hair.

I have considered that. I have a scar on the back of my head from pervious strip and that makes me not a good candidate for smp. With smp you have to shave you head literally very day to make it look natural. By shaving the head is the scar exposed.

2 minutes ago, sukh123 said:

I need to correct you on this and I’m sure everyone on this forum will agree with this . Taking 2000k grafts a day is actually ethical and is done for the reason of minimising transection . Most top doctors do that amount and 2000 is no way a potential hindrance give you have hair mills doing 4000 plus and at times getting good results . De Freitas, bisanga , pinto all extract a maximum of 2000k or slightly less per day and have low transection . Eugenix and dr zarev do more than that and get great results. It’s down to manual dexterity and how the grafts are  extracted and dealt with once they are outside the scalp to help minimise potential transection  . Now I agree your donor has not been dealt with right , and that’s where blame at the clinic is justified aswell as operating on you given your skin condition  . But again my point is you were naive ,knowing your previous two transplants didn’t work and still went for a third. Even if a doctor told me it can still work out it’s just common sense that you shouldn’t, given the two previous ones had poor yield . 

I am not talking about extractin 2000 grafts per day with motorised punch, i am talking about manual punch. If you go to doctors like bicer or mwamba or other top doctors the can extract 2000 grafts with the motorised punch in aday without any problems. With the manual punch you need a whole day to extract 1000 grafts, if you want to do it right. That is what i have been told at least. 

As i said before i feel responsiple for making this decision to go to this clinic. I was naive believing all that was said to me.

5 minutes ago, omega5 said:

I don't think so man, I don't know you. How is that possible?😅

I also want to ask something. Did the clinic really want to transplant you even though they knew about your disease or did they miss it? Because I know a patient who was rejected for this before. This patient had gone there from America. It is not easy to reject a patient who has come this far.

I think we know each other. It is easy for you to find a patient that travelled all this way from America to turkey and got rejected from this clinic because of his Disease. I bet he had sub. Dermatitis too. Can you saw me some pictures from this patient too?

5 minutes ago, HappyMan2021 said:

@michael hofmann 

I'm curious if you had to pay in full for all your procedures at HLC?

Or was the 2nd procedure a free or discounted touchup since you were unhappy with the 1st procedure?

My 1st HT was crap, but I somehow ended up with the same doctor for my 2nd procedure bc I was suckered in by their offer of a free repair. 

 

Regardless of whether you did pay for all your surgeries or not, just want to let you know its quite common for people to feel pressured to go back to the same clinic even after a bad result. 

Perhaps there were more extreme factors at play (if the doctors knew about the skin issue that should have been a hard no go)

But at face value I don't think you should be judged so harshly and critically for going to the same clinic 2x. Its an unfortunate but common fallacy to go back to a crap clinic multiple times. 

I paid for the second surgery in full. I have already written you know, i really thought i should wait after the fist surgery for the results to come.They have used 2000 grafts from beard and it can take up to 16 months for this grafts to grow. I was unhappy 6 months after the procedure but i did not believe it was a failure. I thought i should give it more time for the final result to come.

9 minutes ago, omega5 said:

830 / 5.000

 

Çeviri sonuçları

 

star_border

 

I agree with machoVako on this issue. I think it's too early to make a decision. If they were hairdressers, as some people here say, they should have ruined your donor area after the first purchase, but it doesn't seem like it. Clearly, this is a condition related to your skin disease. And as far as I know, the clinic is very sensitive about this. Here either you were not informed enough or did not give information or you did not want to cancel the op. Anyway, there are people here who go to hlc and we can learn from them about their work ethic. Even john1991, who had previously transplanted and suffered from the destruction of the donor area, cannot claim that they are hairdressers, he is very satisfied with the recipient area, but suffers from the donor area. You are clearly making excessive claims for a clinic that has been operating for 20 years

Omega5 i think we know each other. Or not?

27 minutes ago, sukh123 said:

Your missing my point what I am saying is that your had two prior treatments before which  also didn’t have a good yield . So knowing that you had two procedures and they didn’t produce results , you should not of gone forward irrespective of what the doctor said . If I had two bad procedures before, common sense would dictate that maybe this just isn’t working and I need to pause this process atm . I’m not putting the blame on you , I know you feel hard done by and I agree it wasn’t the best , but you should of also been more diligent  and not gung ho in going for a third procedure given what happened with your previous two. And also in the video dr bisanga clearly says that if you have dermatitis it’s needs to be treated before you get a hair transplant to ensure optimal yield . Now that is where hlc should of been more prudent in telling you this. I understand you went to a dermatologist who advised you it was fine but I disagree and you had bad luck in that regards. You can’t expect a plant to grow to its potential in sub optimal conditions , the same applies to hair 

Yes i had two procedures with 1500 (500 and 1000 grafts) grafts to cover the front and the middle part before many years. My goal was not to get a full coverage but to be able to use toppik without any problems. I was not expecting to get a full head of hair with 1500 grafts. 

As i told before i had a conslulting with the clinic twice before i get the procedure.  The doctor knew my full history and the problem with the Dermatitis. In the area where they took the grafts and in the area where they have placed the grafts there is no sign of dermatitis. But if this is a risk factor they shoud have told me and warn me about it, the Doctor said nothing about it.

I think you are missing the point here too. I am talking the whole time about what they did to the back of my head and this is permanent damage. They quoted me for 6000 grafts from the donor area, when in the reality i had an average donor area. The Doctor who did the consulting talked to me even after the procedure twice, telling me that they can even lower the hairline if i wanted to in a second procedure. 

I went to this clinic because i thought they were professionals and they knew what they are saying. I never thought i had to figure it out alone, how many grafts do i have available and how many procedures do i need.

I have already said that i have spoken to other top doctors now and explained them what happened. Is is just impossible to take 2000-2200 grafts in 3-4 hours without a high transection rate. Even the best doctors that do manual fue they take aroung 1000 grafts in a whole day. There is a reason for that. These are not my words.

55 minutes ago, sukh123 said:

Michael your donor looks likes it’s has  shock loss and some over-harvesting. And hlc have dropped the ball with regards to their usual standards on that point. However I have to say having had a fut procedure which yielded poor growth and then a second procedure which again wasn’t giving much growth . I think you were naive in then committing  to a third transplant given your poor yield from the first two. Everything can be done correctly in a hair transplant, even by the best and sometime our biological makeup prevents us getting good results. Which is why you see subpars from even the best in the world. I know you said you were told you had enough donor , but I think given your previous two procedures didn’t work out you had enough foresight to induce that maybe going for a third was not in your best interest atm, till a full evaluation of your scalp was done to try and explain why you had issues with the prior two surgeries .

No, you don"t get this kind of results from the best in the world, only from hairmills. As i said before i have had an evaluation by three doctors by now. If you scan and compare photos from my donor area after the second operation and the surrent state, there is no schockloss going on. They have not only overharvested but most of the grafts that are left on the donor area are single grafts.

I have already said, i have ekzem. or seborrheic Dermatitis behind the ears and on my face. This is a video from a doctor, recommended in this forum, who is talking about this issues.

As i said before, there is no excuse and no reason, except from money, to destroy the head of somebody.

1 hour ago, MachoVato said:

I've never heard that hair gets thinner from a depleted donor. Miniaturization is caused by DHT. And with respect, I don't believe you've been over-harvested. Still recovering from shock loss, maybe. It doesn't look great 6 months post-op, but it doesn't look botched.

This isn't about me. But HLC doctors are not technicians from off the street. I don't know what university they went to but I trust completely that they are doctors with medical degrees. What's equally important is that they have been there for years, as I've seen Dr. Elif and Dr. Cengiz patients from many years ago.

Perhaps the ethical concern I have is that they operated on you without being on finasteride. They have turned down patients without that. At minimum, I would recommend minoxidil, oral version if possible. Medication is part of the hair transplant protocol for most people.

You've made very negative statements about HLC, and you're free to do that. Some people agree with you and that's totally fine. I offered a different view point and you called me unknowledgeable and dangerous. I'm not your enemy here but I'm allowed to not agree with you.

 

As i told before i have asked for my case three different real doctors by now. If you see the photos of my donor area after the second surgery and compare this photos with the current state of the donor area, there is no schock loss going on. My donor area is not just being overharvested, it has being destroyed. It is very hard to fix such a damage and it is not something you can hide. So, allow me to say my opinion that no real doctor but a scammer does something like this to semebody.

The ethical part is that you should not hurt and permanently damage somebody who trusted you and gave you his money thinking you know what you are doing. 

I have no problem with your opinion, but please do not try to twist the events. Yes, it is dangerous to say that this is nothing, it is just schockloss and you should wait a little more till you get used to it. This is what scammers from other clinics in Turkey say to avoid patients.

5 minutes ago, John1991 said:

Turkey being known for medical tourism doesn't make it any less insane to leave a first world country to be a medical tourist.  There is plenty of available information on the internet to steer any half-careful adult away from Turkey as a destination for a hair transplant and any discerning adult should have enough common sense not to be a medical tourist.  Period.  No excuses.  There may be a few actually good clinics in Turkey - so what.   Even going to them to save money is insane.  Period.  No excuses.

 

As for Hofmann's mental state, I can empathize.  I would hope at least his family would be accepting, though.  Hopefully he  finds it in him to discuss it with them because they're really going to be his main support.  I wish him well.

You are right. As i have said before i am responsible too for making this decision.

3 minutes ago, MachoVato said:

If you are saying that you have miniaturization in your donor area, how is that HLC's fault? A transplant may cause some shock loss, in which case your hair starts a new anagen phase (I think that's right). The hair should thicken over time.

Have you started finasteride or minoxidil, which may cause shedding? That could cause your hair to get worse but it always gets better with time.

No, I don't know the exact medical degree of the doctors that worked on you. 

As it is told to me, and you can find many videos from doctors like Bisanga saying that, when the donor area depleted is many of the blood vessels that suply this area are damaged too. The hairs that are left are not with blood well supplied and that causes this hairs to become smaller. 

It is their obligation to check and examine every patient before hairtransplant to see the Donor-Capacity and if there is any miniaturization. And i mean really EXAMINE the donor area, not just touching the donor area or see from behind how it looks. This is not what professionals do. 

How can you say you trusted these guys to perform your hairtransplant, but you don"t really know what kind of doctor operated on you? Would you be fine knowing that the doctor who operated on you, he was before unemployed in turkey and because he could not find anything else to do he started doing HT? I have questioned myself too you know and that only shows one thing, lack of research.

No, o don"t take any finasterid or minoxidil now.

5 minutes ago, ITA said:

Ok @MachoVato I offer you my apologies, we are not here to argue, but to help those like me or @michael hofmann have undergone transplants that did not meet expectations.  It is also possible that it went like this: @michael hofmannundergoes the first procedure, which went wrong, when he returned for the visit (he said that a second procedure had not been scheduled), the clinic should have done some further information, they should have asked @michael hofmannTo make careful visits to understand if his dermatitis or Ekzema could have affected the outcome of the first transplant.  But no, they just did a second procedure, so I would call them "superficial" rather than "unethical"?  Yes, in reality the name of unethical is usually given to those who "dump" patients once they have taken their money.  We will see at the end what they will do to help their patient.

As i have said before i had no intentions getting a second HT. The only reason i did this, its because they lured me in. The Director of the clinic told me they can go up to 6000 grafts and i needed 2000 grafts for the front and the hairline. So, the second surgery was scheduled. My fault is that i have believed them, Unethical is when you say to somebody he has a great donor area and he should have a second procedure ending up like this. Criminal is the doctor that destroys your donor area, giving you a much bigger problem than you had before, just to get some money.

1 minute ago, MachoVato said:

I don't believe they implanted multiple grafts into your hairline or in the wrong angles. The photos don't show that and that's not the kind of work they do. 

How on earth does donor area get worse over time? That makes me not believe anything you say. I'm not going to argue with you. If they are criminals, call the police. 

It gets worse over time brcause the new hairs that grow there have a smaller diameter. That is not said by me, but from one of the top doctors that are recommended here. The multiple grafts on the hairline are the kind of work they did to me.

How do you know everything about the kind of work they are doing every day? i have asked you before, the doctor that operated on you is he a Dermatologist or a plastic surgeon? 

4 minutes ago, MachoVato said:

 

 

Oh, I know exactly what I'm talking about. You're the one calling doctors scammers. These are YOUR photos. Your timeline. If you want to ask for a refund, go for it. You'll have more luck asking for a free top up. 

Could results be better? Yes.
Is it botched? No.
Will it get better over time? Yes.
Can you improve your hair cut and style? Yes.
Are your expectations too high? Also yes.

I have high expectations that i wanted to look normal after a hairtransplant? I have spoken to 3 different doctors by now and they all told me that a depleted donor area like mine is very hard to fix, this is permanent damage and Disfiguration and you are telling me this is ok, not botched? I have already said that with the time it has only gotten worse, the guys from the HLC told me that i had to wait for 6 months, but you know better. 

As i have written before they have implanted multiple grafts on the hairline with wrong angles, that is why i have cutted my hair short. And it has not gotten any better.

I think i have every good reason to believe that these doctors are more than scammers, they are criminals. Do you know anything about the doctor who operated you there? Is he a Dermatologist? Is he a plastic surgeon? 

7 minutes ago, MachoVato said:

Here's my donor recovery.

How does this looks to you for a donor area after 6,5 months?. With the time it has only gotten worse. What do you think that this is?

26 minutes ago, MachoVato said:

I stand by that accusation. You jumped on the bashing bandwagon without good evidence. Today, there are better photos. This is what I see.

 

Before HLC, crown is completely bald. Results from first FUT are very low density and pluggy. Looks like Norwood 6 to me.

 

Crown looks much better 1 year after 1st transplant. Density isn't great, but better. It would look better with longer hair.

 

Donor 1 year after 1st procedure. Looks thinner but totally fine. Not depleted.

 

 

The hairline from the FUT, before HLC touched it. 

 

Hairline post-op after 2nd transplant. HLC implanted into previous transplanted hairs. First time I've seen them do this. At this point, I like it. Shows promise.

 

Today 6 months post op. Lots of improvement. I would still like to see more density even at 6 months. But why on earth did you cut it that short?!

 

Donor today. Only 6 months. I would expect it to recover more. It looks uneven because of the SMP on the scar. It's obviously cut pretty short. I would cut it much shorter (tight fade style) or grow it out. But still, not a botched donor.

 

In summary, I'm still on the patient's side. The density on the crown worries me most. I would expect it to be better after 1 year. Maybe the beard grafts didn't grown? I don't know. 

The hairline looks much better than before, which was pretty poor. 6 months is too early to make "botched job" accusations for any transplant. Yes, personally I would expect better density at this point, but every head is different.  And for goodness sake, grow it out! Why did you cut it that short?! Most of our hairlines would look bad if we cut it that short. 

Maybe this is a video @Melvin- Moderator could create. How to grow your hair after a transplant. There are limitations when we remove grafts from the back and implant to the top. How to grow/cut/style our hair contributes to the "illusion of density". 

And you are dangerous too.