jim1973

I'm trying to understand how scalp testosterone affects hair loss (or lack of defense against hair loss). I had been in oral Fin for a long time but switched to oral Dut hoping to get better results. My side effects of Dut were increased libido and increased testosterone, even though my DHT was lowered. Unfortunately I'm losing more hair on .5mg of Dut daily than I was on 1mg of Fin daily. I have read studies where there could be a link between scalp T and hair loss. My question is that if I am nuking my serum DHT does that somehow increase my total testosterone and/or scalp testosterone (both have increased)? And could a topical version of either Fin or Dut work better for me in this instance since I'm losing ground quickly. I've been on oral Dutasteride (and oral Minoxidil) since Aug 2022 so coming up on 1 year without any gains and steady losses. I'm at a loss for what else I can do other than try and decrease scalp T. If the topical Fin/Dut wouldn't decrease scalp T, what could possibly help (without going systemic)?

This thread caught my attention because I'm also taking oral Dutasteride, oral Minoxidil (for almost 1 year) but still losing hair fast. I'm also 50 but have been slowing losing hair for 30 years. This is the fastest I've been losing hair so I'm wondering if I need one of these topical antiandrogens. You seem to be familar with topical options so wondering if you could offer any advice on what else I can do.

I just got recommended to use 17a-Estradiol also. I don't know much about it. Did you use it and if so, how did it go?

My most recent blood test on these items all came back negative. That said, I'm losing ground fast on oral Dut (.5mg/day). With these tests (and testosterone) being in the normal zones, does that mean that using either CB0103 or 17a-Estradiol could help without likely any side effects?

You think CB0301 better than Pyralutamide? (I'm not sure where to get either in the US yet). Since oral Dut isn't working for me would you recommend (not as a doctor, just as what you've heard works best from others), me switching to oral Finasteride, or topical Fin or topical Dut? Oral Minoxidil (5mg) seems to be giving me increased hair on arms and legs but not on scalp sadly. Do some respond better to topical Min?

Yea, ever since I switched from oral Fin to oral Dut, my testosterone has increased, my sides have decreased, but positive results have diminished. Feels like Fin used to work better for me (before it stopped working). I would like to consider topical Fin or Dut but most seem to think it won't work as well as oral meds should so I might just be wasting money. I've considered a topical anti-androgen blocker but none are approved and they seem to have mixed results, depending on who you ask. I'm more concerned about the top thinning now as the hairline has been gone for years now but top has been thick until recently. I appear to have chronic telogen effluvium for the last 1.5 years, but don't feel stressed so not sure why that is happening.

If you don't mind, please keep us posted and I'll do the same with my products. I'm currently on 5mg of oral minoxidil daily and .5mg of oral dutasteride daily and am still losing ground. I feel that these oral products don't work for me so really considering taking topicals soon. (I started on lower does of each almost 1 year ago but have been migrating up to these doses since and have been on these doses for 4 months - no results).

@mustang Most of the formulations by the national companies (Hims, Keeps, Happy Head, Strut, etc. all seem to have formulations of .25% or .3% (of both Dut and Fin). Your suggestion of only wanting to use .05, .02 Dut or .01 of Fin is more in line with some of the studies I've read but if those are the proper doses, any idea why these big companies offer these doses? To get the doses you suggest, it seems like you'd need to have a formula compounded locally for you (unless you know of a company who already offers these lower doses?)

@Melvin- Moderator Here is a link to a study where it mentions the different delivery vehicles and how long products would need to be left on topically for maximum effect. The liposomal formulas were ranked 3rd (out of 4) in regards to how long the product would need to be left on the head for maximum efficacy. https://perfecthairhealth.com/how-to-apply-topical-finasteride-for-maximum-absorption/. Having said that, I'm not applying any topicals yet and you and others seem to be getting good results so possibly only getting a small % of the product absorption is best for some individuals. I'm still learning from you and others who contribute to these posts hoping to find something that works for me.

I've been looking for proof that topical Dut worked as I was really hoping to try it but my research matches your opinion (that it likely doesn't work very well, if at all). Topical Fin likely works, and seems that it could work as well as oral but there are mixed results in the studies as to what the proper dose would be, that would allow the most benefit while causing the least amount of side effects. Too much and it can have the same sides as oral but too little and it likely wouldn't be effective enough to use.

The study you provided is very accurate. Finasteride is below the molecular weight of the Dalton Rule so therefore, will obviously penetrate the scalp and work similar to oral Finasteride. However, since Dutasteride is above that weight, that is why there is little evidence that applied topically, that it really works. This is why most people do not get negative side effects of topical Dut (because they are likely receiving little positive effects also)

That was my biggest concern from this product....no sides, but also little to no efficacy.

I can't speak for the product specifically as I've not tried it. I'm only speaking about the various carrying agents that can be used in anyone's product. The liposomal products seem to be the slowest to release/absorb, and thus, need the most time to remain on the scalp. You'd need to research each product to confirm each's recommendation.

In the studies I've ready, the liposomal delivery method is more delayed and needs almost 20 hours to deliver entire product. It doesn't deliver as fast as other carrier vehicles, which reach full potency in 4-8 hours, but its also less likely to cause scalp irritation, so that is the trade-off.

It 100% works when taken orally but because of the molecular weight (Dalton rule, over 500), there is room for questions regarding topical efficacy. I'm not trying to be skeptical (I actually would like someone to help me find the proof as I'm interested in taking it) but yes, I am slightly skeptical due to the science behind molecular weight regarding what levels allow topical penetration and which do not (Dutasteride falls into the latter).

I see alot of people who are using topical Dutateride from Xyon stating they have no side effects, which is great. But I haven't seen any proof that the medication actually lowers scalp DHT and actually works. Has anyone gotten bloodwork before and after starting topical Dutasteride?

Seems as though this lipo carrier must be left on scalp for 20-24 hours for full effectiveness. That means that there really isn't a time when it isn't on your scalp. I see positive results regarding no negative side effects but not much communication that its actually giving any positive results.

For minor side effects such as swelling of limbs, you should be able to confirm yourself. For blood pressure, a doctor can easily give you a current value (and compare with your previous results). To be more thorough, you can get a heart test to look for swelling/fluid but you likely wouldn't have any prior tests to determine if you had before using a product or not.

I had been on topical Min from 2013-2022. I didn't grow much hair but didn't lose much (was also taking Fin). I started oral in August 2022 at 1.25mg. After 2 months and no sides, increased to 2.5mg. After 6 months of no improvement and losing ground, I increased to 5mg, which I've been on for 3 months now. The only sides I get is water weight retention (5lbs) and increased body hair growth. Sadly this isn't doing much on top of my head.

I really wish I would have gotten my DHT levels checked years ago prior to Finasteride and now Dutasteride. My recent blood test shows that my serum DHT is at 9L and my free DHT is at .75. I'm on oral Dutasteride (.5mg/day) which is why it likely is low but I'm considering switching to a topical Fin or topical Dut product to try and keep DHT levels low in scalp but not as much in the rest of my body. My only negative sides on oral Dutasteride seems to be weight gain and water retention (nothing sexual) but it also doesn't seem to be working for me, so would like to initiate DHT reduction in scalp instead of entire body. Anyone switch from oral to topical and if so, what kind of results did you get? Curious if anyone improved going from oral (either Fin or Dut) to a topical version. Also, if anyone else is better at getting DHT levels checked, how did your markers change when you updated your routines?

Same for me. I don't think oral Min works for me (5mg). Might go back to topical.

US

My new monthly quoted price was $785/month. No can do.

@mustangDid you have better results with liposomal vs trichosol? Any differences in scalp irritation between the two?