GeneralNorwood

19 minutes ago, Melvin- Admin said:

I don’t believe this is fair to say, there’s more than enough cases here similar to his that have been successful. @Gatsbywas essentially the same. 
 

This hair looks very healthy 

I know you’re not a fan of this clinic, which is fine. But I think fair is fair. 

@Bandit90 looked essentially the same. I think there are certainly cases that should be turned away like this patient. 

But John didn't have FUT with 2500 grafts taken away, that's the main difference. And he has more dense beard. 

So for sure OP shouldn't go so aggressive with his plan like John

34 minutes ago, Melvin- Admin said:

That’s why there’s only two doctors in the world doing 10-12k grafts in one day. 

I think you meant 10-12k grafts surgeries in one master plan. 

Because Zarev do this kind of surgery in 2 days and one year later 2 more days, so it's total 4 days. 

And Pittella needs 2 days, but he usually uses beard grafts, so his approach is different. 

6 hours ago, JC90 said:

 The comment my surgeon made was that she didn't want to cause shock loss to this area

29 minutes ago, Bandit90 said:

Not apples with apples. OP has a compromised donor and has rightly been conservative on the first sitting. Over 5.5k grafts in one sitting for this type of donor is a lot. Crown and temples are to be covered in the second sitting after an evaluation of how the donor recovers.. IMO this is a commendable approach to surgery! 

But Johnny has a point. At Eugenix they always say this line "we don't want to cause a shock loss when implanting between native hair", but when they propose 2nd surgery it somehow doesn't matter. 

I asked Zarev if he is afraid of shock loss when implanting between native hair, because i heard such opinion from other clinic. He said simply "No" and smiled. 

However i agree with you @Bandit90 that case of OP is different from mine. His pattern is same (Norwood7), but he has less native hair and his donor was not virgin before surgery. So it's good that he decided to be conservative. Second surgery should focus on implanting more hair behind frontal third and that's it. 

11 hours ago, MC117 said:

 But the off schedule list is already big haha, even for any cancellation. It's like waiting 3 years (if lucky) instead of 5, but there are many factors at play. 

 Waiting 3 years is standard option after off-schedule consultation. If you are lucky you can get it sooner, but as you said, cancellation list is long. 

The main benefit of off-schedule  consultation is that you can get consultation in reasonable time. Standard "cheap" consultations are not available and maybe won't return anyway. 

13 hours ago, sekiro109 said:

what's the waiting list like for Dr. Zarev? Do you really have to wait several years?

 

12 hours ago, Rawkerboi said:

3 years to get a consultation. Then another 2 years to surgery.

Standard consultations are closed.

Consultations for 900 euro are open and you have to wait few months to get one. Then they schedule your surgery in 3 years. They can sign you on cancellation list, but nothing is promised. 

1 hour ago, Fox243 said:

I heard its now 3 years till surgery after a consult.

That is correct. I had consultation with Zarev in March and my surgery was scheduled for March 2027. 

56 minutes ago, Melvin- Admin said:

The two in the middle I don’t know

You didn't recognize dr. Sever Muresanu?  

Yes, Zarev is around my height or even taller. And i'm 190cm, 6' 3"

I recognize 4 of this people and i talked in real life with 3 of them. What does it say about me? 🤣

On 3/1/2024 at 12:40 AM, RTC said:

 

BEFORE

 

 

Could you show current photo of the hairline from exactly same angle like this? 

16 minutes ago, caveman said:

 

for density, do you believe 40graft/cm^2 is possible throughout the scalp? What density do you have for your hair? It looks quite a bit more dense than mine. 

If total recipient area is between 275-300 cm2, you need 11000- 12000 grafts with 40 graft/cm2 density. 

My hair look more dense, because i have propably more native hair then you and i have blond  hair. Zarev calculated that in some regions my native hair has even 40grafts/cm2 density, but this hair are heavily miniaturised, very thin and short. 

40 grafts of this miniaturised hair are maybe like 15-20 healthy grafts in terms of density, if we even try to compare it... 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

1. In depth planning off donor area and recipient area. Create sections to check donor density and sectioning off transplant zone to assure desired density. She did mention that routinely this not practiced as it depends on a per case situation but they are willing to do it for me since I am concerned. She did also mention something about a certain machine that’s used for this but they don’t have that. Not too sure what that is maybe someone can shed light?

 

Zarev uses microcamera during consultation to check density : https://youtu.be/eX4X8u0Lk64?t=74

If you don't have microcamera you can use just piece of paper and cut square 1cmx1cm in it and check how many grafts there are in square when you put it to scalp. 

So i don't believe any special machine is needed. 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

2. Graft count and areas of focus. I explained my goals. I had already spoken to dr arika 2 weeks ago so eugenix had a general idea. The previous plan to lower hairline is not out of the question but I have abandoned it. However, if I wanted to, it would be around 1000 grafts

Yeah, that would be a waste of 1000 grafts

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

3. Current density and goal of density

At this point the eugenix rep stepped in and explained they have the details of my current density, etc. and they will send it to me. I’ve asked in the past and haven’t received it. Hopefully I’m able to see where I stand and this was something eugenix actively recorded during my last surgery. For goal of density, I am not sure. Normally the hairline is like 40 graft/cm^2. How much does it decrease as you move into the midscalp and crown?

In Eugenix they do 40 grafts/cm2 in the first ~2 cm behind hairline, then it decreases to 30+ grafts/cm2

1 hour ago, caveman said:

@GeneralNorwood so tbh from the front i like where the hairline sits. I’ve got no issues with it really at all. It looks age appropriate and suits my face okay. I did my best to take a picture from a distance which I attached here (picture taken at 6 ft distance).

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry for being pain in the ass, but the angle in this picture isn't the best to see the hairline. Propably camera was lower then your face or you are leaning your face back slightly  

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

I just don’t think going to zarev is in the stars for me. As much as I’d love to, I can neither wait that long nor pay for the price of a procedure with him. It is, however, great advice.

 

Yeah, i was only speaking about donor assesment. But you can consult with other doctors too. I can recommend Muresanu. You can have skype consultation with him. 

24 minutes ago, Bandit90 said:

Don’t be getting jealous of mine & Gatsby’s bromance now General 😉  

You reminded me of this song. You are this guy driving a car, would be better if he had blonde hair, but anyway, It kinda fits 

11 hours ago, caveman said:

 

one thing is for sure. What I didn’t do is plan on the first sitting (even though I thought I did) I think marking off sections of the head and measuring for the actual size of recipient area and then calculating available donor grafts is important. Also knowing what my target density per section is key. We did not do that at all in my first transplant.  I definitely must do that this time. I also don’t even know my current densities in different areas of scalp and I am curious if it is still possible to achieve the density that I am looking for.

 

 

Well, that's not the kind of informations that are gathered by Eugenix, because measuring takes time. 

11 hours ago, caveman said:

my thoughts with the corners is “ if I can use less than 200 grafts just to round off my corners to make them a bit more subtle, will those 200 grafts be detrimental in the density behind my hairline?” Now I may be mistaken with this low number of grafts so correct me if I am wrong.
 

200 grafts is like 5cm2 with 40grafts/cm2 density. So imagine area of 10cm x 0,5 cm. So you can lower 10 cm of hairline by 0,5 cm. 

Can you send a photo of straight face (something like my avatar picture) with hairline visible? Photo made from 2 meters at least (not a selfie). 

12 hours ago, caveman said:

 

I would prefer not to use beard grafts unless needed as I also love my beard. Probably more than my potential hair haha. You mention 3500-4000 grafts wouldn’t be enough to get full coverage at my current state. Do you think I will require more grafts than that? I thought with between 2800-3500 I could achieve max desired density. I will have some consultations to determine what my actual plan can be. I may have to fly/ go somewhere to have an in person consultation as you did with zarev ( I don’t think I can wait to go to zarev though). 

4000 grafts will definitely help, but still require some sacrifices in the crown for example. 

Consultation with Zarev is expensive, because off-schedule consultations cost 900 euro, but with this price you can get most detailed measurements of your scalp in the world. So for me it was worth it and waiting time wasn't so long, it was like 3 months since i asked about possibility of of-schedule consultation. I am happy that im did it, because now i know where I stand. 

3 hours ago, Gatsby said:

Not as mind blowing as yours bro 🤩👌

If you guys won't be together, i don't believe in love 😂

5 hours ago, caveman said:

@GeneralNorwood thanks you for giving me illustrations of what plan I should have moving forward. I greatly appreciate it. I know you keep it real. That being said, I am curious, why are you so against my plan? The corners of my hair transplant are really bothering me so I’m not sure I would be happy keeping the deep recession. I know donor graft count is critical in a case like mine. I reviewed your case too so I’m wondering are you warning me from your personal experience? The hairline and temporal angles that you completed with eugenix are probably like 80% more aggressive than where I am at right now. I believe adding a couple hundred grafts to round out my corners would make me happier and will look nicer. 
 

I met dr sethi in Philly a few months ago and at the time I believe he said he could get an additional 3500-4000 scalp grafts from my donor. Beard grafts would be additional. I suspect perhaps 500-700 could reinforce my midscalp, and another 1800 or so could help cover my entire crown. 
 

after reviewing your personal experience, I understand why you are pushing me towards keeping the current hairline and working behind it. That being said, I believe that if you had a much more conservative hairline with receding corners, you may not have been as pleased with your outcome either. Your hairline and FTA are perfect. Like too perfect 😂 so I wouldn’t bring things down as much as you but am looking to subtly modify what I already have without wasting many grafts on the hairline. 
 

I am viewing lots of patients like Melvin, yourself, Armen, bandit, etc who are all adjusting the hairline with minor changes that result in a way more pleasing aesthetic. You are concerned for me about adding density throughout the midscalp and reinforcing the current hairline but do you think it would be really that dangerous to fix the corners if it’s something that would make me happier with myself? 
 

im not trying to turn your points away because I definitely understand and agree with them. That was why I agreed to this conservative hairline design in the first place. Rather I’m trying to get your feedback for a plan that would involve fixing the corners (I just want to round them off a little bit, they look so sharp and pointy right now and don’t match my facial features) as they are really bothering me even though I know you are against it. If your corners were receded the way mine are I really do think that you might not be as happy with your overall result at the end of the day. 
Do you see any plan in which I can round the corners off minimally while still focusing on adding density throughout the midscalp and crown?

 

If i could turn back time, i would make hairline 1-1.5 cm higher and not so straight and i would save 1000+ grafts because of this move and i would put it behind hairline. 

And i would wear hairstyle similar to this and corners wouldn't be visible anyway. But guess what. This fringe on my forehead would be even denser then on this picture if i put this 1000 grafts from the hairline behind. 

if you implant hair in midscalp and grow it longer, after 12 months it will cover your forehead too, so it will make density not only for midscalp, but also for frontal third and for forehead. If you implant your hair in the corner, it will cover your forehead, but not midscalp, so it is waste for the density. 

You can't compare our cases to Mazab, because he is only Norwood 3 and used 5000+ grafts anyway. So if he used so many grafts, ask yourself how many you need. 

Simply, if you use grafts to implant them in the corners, when you don't have hair, they won't make ilussion of density for area behind hairline.

So it's a choice between filling a corner with number of grafts with balding/less dense look behind hairline or putting this grafts behind current hairline that will create density not only behind the hairline, but it will make density for the corners too, when you grow this hair longer,

Speaking about beard grafts, so you are aware that 3500-4000 grafts from the scalp is not a lot to fulfill your plan. Well, beard grafts are hit or miss and definitely the more you use beard grafts, it is more likely that it will look like "bird nest". Generally, i am not fan of beard grafts and i like my beard too and don't want to lose density from it. You can see on this forum cases from Eugenix  that included beard grafts and caused a lot of trouble. 

What i propose to you is not only based on my own experience, but also on consultations with various surgeons and what i learned from them and of course based on lot of cases that i saw online. 

You will do as you want, but if you go aggresive in your 2nd transplant, then extracting grafts from the hairline in the future is problematic as you may know and require multiple procedures and lot of funds. 

So maybe it's better to take it slow and focus on bald areas behind hairline and see how after this procedure density in the front will look and how corners will look. And then if you are still not pleased how corners look, you can adjust your plan. 

16 hours ago, caveman said:

I drew up a more closer example of what I’m looking for. I’m not the best with editing pictures I think this example looks better 😂 let me know your thoughts @GeneralNorwood @Berba11

Don't do temple points. Don't change anything about hairline and temple points : 

Your temple points look now natural. If you make them more aggresive with HT, it can bring you trouble in the future.

And besides temple ponts after HT only look good if you grow them longer, so your current hairstyle with sides and temple points cut short won't be available. Check how temple points after HT look if you cut them shorter in this post : Eugenix 3514 grafts (720 on the temples) May 2022 Dr Priyadarshini Das - Page 11 - Hair Transplant Reviews - Hair Restoration Network - Community For and By Hair Loss Patients

So best idea is to reinforce everything besides current hairline, strenghten red area.

Second question is how many grafts can be implanted in blue area, which in fact, needs a lot more grafts then red area. 

2000 grafts of course is not enough for everything, even if you stick with current hairline and don't lower it. Changing the hairline or temple points would only increase this demand of grafts. 

The good news is that after you did SMP, you can wear this buzzcut hairstyle and it looks neat.

You don't have to rush into 2nd procedure, rather take your time and consult with other surgeons, that's my advice. 

5 hours ago, caveman said:

 

 

Well sorry mate, but this plan is kinda mad. Eugenix, hit me baby one more time? Sure, they will do it, because dr Sethi likes money and he likes helicopters and flying with a choppa is expensive  

And now more serious...

The buzz cut option + SMP works, it looks ok. Don't bother with opinion of  your "friends". They know nothing. What feedback? They preffered your previous balding men version? I don't think so.

Let's speak about 2 options : 

1. This plan with wasting another 1000+ grafts for the hairline lowering, and BTW, front is your current most dense area. Maybe focus should be put on less dense areas, isn't it more logical?  

So no, i don't like this option, because you will have strong frontal third and very weak midscalp and crown. 

You can mix it with SMP and wear this SMP hairstyle with new lower hairline, but you will be basically limited to 1 hairstyle for life. Do you want to be limited to this buzzcut hairstyle for life and cut your hair very often? 

2. Reinforcing the hairline rather then lowering it and focusing on midscalp  +  crown. It's for sure best option, if you are looking for longterm plan and don't want to limit yourself to this 1 buzzcut hairstyle and be able to grow hair longer. 

Just look at this pictures, it was 7 months update : 

So how can you lower your hairline when frontal hair looked sparse? Just add more hair BEHIND the hairline and everything will look fuller and hair will cover the forehead. 

And that's from 13 months update : 

You see this lack of density in the red circle? That should be treated. Do you want to lower hairline and leave this red area with low density? Doesn't make any sense. Reinforce red area and then the fringe will become fuller. 

Doctors like Zarev or Muresanu would kick out this this "hairline lowering" idea from your head. Eugenix...  i think they can realize the craziest ideas of patients. 

1 hour ago, track_rat said:

They did give me back some of my funds which amounted to approx 1/5th total surgery cost. 

Wow, you had some "luck" or things just changed, because they didn't offer me anything, not even tiny touch-up.

Maybe because i didn't ask them?  Anyway, for me it was about getting good HT result, so even when Eugenix last words to me were "You are not alone", then silence came and that's how we ended our cooperation  

6 hours ago, hair_forever said:

Too evident after only 3200 uf after the 10000 uf available I can't imagine how the donnor would appear with this extraction system.

It was 6700 FU, not 3200.

And yeah, i think Ferreira uses rather big punch size, so with sides cut shorter, scaring is more visible. However, if he grows hair longer, it should be unnoticable

@Dr. Ahmed Altan

Do you have more photos after 18 months from the top? 

Do you plan to do second surgery? 

@Daniel Dabros

6 months update? 

1 hour ago, jason231 said:

So is eugenix off the table now? whos left for high NW/high graft clincs?

You can go to Eugenix if you are on a budget, but this choice can lead to situation where HT's will consume part of your life.

Zarev is like top1, but it is hard to get HT with him, because of long waiting list. Then there is dr Sever Muresanu, very ethical doctor and very detailed.

Pittella is the cheapest option per graft from this trio, but still it is not budget option. and you have to fly to South America. 

Laorwong, maybe he is best budget option, many people are recommending him on this forum,though i don't know many his cases. But definately he is worth researching.

Some recent case to follow, i am curious how final result will look like : Absolute Hair Clinic | Dr. Kongkiat Laorwong | FUE 4128 | 45M | NW6 | October 2023 - Page 3 - Hair Transplant Reviews - Hair Restoration Network - Community For and By Hair Loss Patients

1 hour ago, Dennis3 said:

Congratulations on making it through the first day! It’s reassuring to hear that your experience aligns with the glowing reviews. Looking forward to your full review once you’re all settled. Rest up and enjoy the new hair growth journey!

Bot? 🙃

I remember doing drama before the transplant, but everything turned out fine 

A wise decision not to rush into the next procedure.

2000 grafts won't do much in your case, so i don't like this plan. 

If doctor Muresanu is coming to US in July, you should get second opinion from him. He'll tell you how it is