JDEE0

Yeah, Stemson is exciting too, but that is hair cloning/re-generation, so I didn't include it in my list as its not really in the same category of a preventative/re-growth/maintenance treatments per se.

There are a number of big players in the hair cloning race apart from Stemson and Tsuji, such as L'oreal and some others I can't remember off the top of my head. I do think we will get there in terms of cloning at some point, but who knows when. Would be good to get an update from Tsuji at some point as they are ready for clinical trials, well, according to themselves anyway. 

I'm more hopeful for these other treatments that are far more feasible and likely far more accessible and useful for most people, but I think the next 10-20 years will generally see hair loss 'cured' via a number of different methods. 

2 minutes ago, SD1984 said:

Like what?

Thanks for your reply.

Well, I don't want to pre-emptively get anyones hopes up, so this comes with the disclaimer that there is certainly no guarantee any of these will actually come to market, but here's what I'm optimistic about. In a somewhat descending order of what will be most effective/life changing for anyone suffering from MPB. (you can read about all of these in depth at hairlosstalk.com under the new research section, there are threads for each with lots of discussion and knowledgable people).

1) Bayer Prolactin Antibody/HM-115: a series of injections over the course of 6 months that has re-grown essentially full heads of hair in the completely bald scalps (that had been that way for decades in some subjects) of macaques - these monkeys suffer from Androgenetic alopecia just as we do, same genetic cause as in humans. Effects lasted for more than 4 years, so in theory you would need some injections every week for a few months every X amount of years and regrow all your hair/never go bald. Soon to go into Phase 2 trials in the US and already underway in China I believe - seems to be side effect free so far and doesn't interfere with androgens. 

2) Kintor 20029 AR degrader - this one will be a while off If it is to come through, probably closer to 10 years, but would essentially destroy the AR in the follicle so that nothing can bind to it, DHT or T, with no systemic effect on hormone levels. Would alone most likely prevent any further loss for anyone who used it and would probably be a functional cure for anyone yet to or at the ver beginning stages of baldness.

3) OliX AR mRNA Silencing product 

4) Kintors other topical which is quickly going through Clinical trials - KY19382 - and Breezula. (both should do a similar thing).

then there's all the WNT pathway stuff etc, there's a lot on Hairlosstalk as I say, so dive into that rabbit hole if you want to know what is potentially on the horizon, but it looks promising.

Depends where you are, but any online pharmacy usually. Generic fin is available so prices will be cheap everywhere, just search google.

Oral min is more effective, has more risk for potential sides though so do your research. 

Finasteride is undoubtedly the better option with tons of data on its efficacy - make the switch. 

Hey man, just commented on your other post and then saw this, but it sounds like a very sensible plan that you've thought out over a long period of time, so hats off to you.

It's a shame you couldn't tolerate fin, but oral minoxidil should help out for a while. I'm hopeful we will have a number of new treatments, that all look very promising, available in the next 5-10 years. No one knows of course, but we're in a time unlike any other before with prospective options on the horizon. 

That would be my only reservation for you though, is that you do have a clear pattern that in reality is going to progress without the use of meds. However, with that said, you have made it clear you're aware of all of this and your expectations aren't unreasonable at all. You know that one day you might have a bare crown etc. And besides, I do think there will be more options in the near future. Maybe you could try a Dutasteride Mesotherapy treatment for now?

At the end of the day, I think it'll be successful and you're gonna look good.

I'll say this, you've done a lot of research and put a lot of thought into this; I know I'd regret never going ahead with it 20 years down the line far more than getting there and beginning to regret it due to further loss etc if I was you!

You've done what you can, and you're being more than reasonable. Sometimes you just have to stick to your guns and not worry too much past a certain point - life is too short

The back part of the crown also drops down into the back of the head in a NW6 pattern too, just not as far down as a 7, along with the upper sides still being in tact and not too receded either. 

I don't think you can ever really be too 'safe' or sure that you've reached your final pattern, but I do generally think for most cases you will have a pretty good idea long before you actually get there.

I think that, for most people, by the time around about a decade has passed since you began balding (which is probably late 20's/early 30's for people affected by MPB to any significant degree) you'll have a decent idea of where you're going to end up. Purely because, if in that time frame one section of your scalp (let's say the temples) has completely thinned out but the rest hasn't at all and looks the same as ever, you know that these other area's are far more androgen resistant. Otherwise they would have gone the same way or at least began to show signs of doing so in that period.

As such, I think you can safely say you have an idea of where you'll end up once you've been balding for some time and you can overall see which areas are affected on your scalp. Well, at least in the medium-long term, as it does seem to me that once unaffected areas can catch up in the long-long term after decades and decades. 

Look at people who had only frontal hair loss in their late 20's or so such as Joe Rogan, who has ended up a NW6 or 7 by the looks of his shaved horseshoe pattern. His back and sides etc. looked pretty thick/strong even at 30+ and he has ended up pretty advanced. 

At the same time, you have people who were approaching a NW3 sort of pattern at the same age as Joe who haven't really progressed much further in decades, look at Steve Buscemi and Jack Black for example, both could've probably had a transplant late 20's/early 30's to fill in their temples and still be fine today without really 'needing' a touch up. Their loss has worsened over the years, obviously, but not by a massive amount. 

On top of this, you have people like Ralph Fiennes who had a pretty amazing head of hair, pretty much NW1 beyond the age of 30, but then went to a NW5 plus over the next 20 odd years. Similar story for Eric Cantona who seemed to have decent hair into his 40's and then went fairly advanced by the looks of things. 

What I'm trying to say is that, yeah you can get a general idea of things, but ultimately I don't think anyone knows and it's still very much possible in the LONG term to end up a NW7 when it didn't look like that would be your pattern at one point in time. Just because someone showed a clear NW5 or 6 pattern without any signs of dipping lower to a 7 at say, age 35, doesn't mean that genetics won't speed up and change things by say age 50, 55 or 60 etc. Hence why the use of meds is so important in my opinion. 

I believe that if you use meds whilst your hair is still largely unaffected by MPB then you have a good chance of holding on to them indefinitely, probably to a point at which if they do ever begin to thin out, you'll likely be entering old age and although I'm sure you'd still want your hair in your late 60's onwards, it would be a begrudgingly acceptable outcome at that point, at least for me. I don't think it will come to that anyway as I believe we will essentially be able to fully prevent further loss for as long as we live with new treatments that should come out over the next 5-10+ years or so, but we'll see.

Just had a look at your results, looked like a pretty good outcome. Could you post some pics of your current situation to see how well the transplanted hair and your own native hair has held up over the past 12 years, as well as some other details such as your age and whether or not you have been using meds?

It helps to advise you with your next procedure of course, but also there aren't enough long term results for people to see generally speaking, so it's always interesting and valuable when people such as yourself can offer some insight into the long-term. 

Yes, unshaven FUE is an option, but do you mean completely unshaven in the donor and recipient or just recipient? Both are available from some surgeons, and both are generally more expensive, but with completely unshaven harvesting you can only really do small procedures limited to say 1000-1500 grafts or so from what I've seen. Whereas shaven donor but untouched recipient you can do pretty much the same as regular FUE in one sitting. 

FUE and FUT are still the only two used techniques, no real new 'treatments' in that regard. The only thing that really has changed since 2009 in regards to this really is that FUE has come on quite a lot and is now a very reliable technique - equally so to FUT - in which thousands and thousands of grafts can be harvested safely in one session, and it has become the most popular method since then too. 

My personal favourite list of docs in Europe these days by country: Dr. Bisanga, Dr. Feriudini, Dr. Lupanzula (Belgium), Dr. Bruno Pinto, Dr. Bruno Ferreira (Portugal), Dr. Rafael De Freitas, Dr. Ximena Vila, Dr. Couto (Spain) - somewhere to start.

To be honest, I would have to suggest you really re-think going ahead with anything unless you try medical intervention to see if it helps to improve your donor. If it does, then maybe you can, but you would have to commit to this indefinitely or go back to square one.

Your donor is very sparse - you have severe retrograde above the ears/on the sides of your head to the point that I don't think any grafts whatsoever can be taken from here.

You're also very clearly thinning into a NW7 pattern - that much is certain. It's only going to continue to thin until it eventually becomes slick bald, so if you go ahead with a transplant now and don't use/commit to meds for the rest of your life, you're eventually going to be left with a huge disconnect at the back/crown and lateral humps to the rest of your hair and almost certainly have very little to no donor available to improve things.

You don't need millions of Dollars, it's a sort of myth or misconception people have - they see celebrities get HT's and assume it must have cost them some ridiculous price, but it's not really the case. FUE is generally more expensive than FUT, and the U.S. is generally more expensive than the other region of quality hair transplants that the world has to offer - Europe (not saying these are the only two places with good surgeons, just that the majority are concentrated between the two).

World class surgeons in Europe are going to cost anywhere from 2.5/3 to 4 EUR per graft generally speaking, whilst the U.S. is probably going to be around about double the price for the same quality of surgeon. 

You are a NW6, not a 7, and your sides or lateral humps are quite high which is good. Donor hair looks ok, it looks somewhat patchy in the very middle of the back of your scalp, but its really hard to give any accurate indication based just off of that photo. If I was you, I would go and get it checked by a reputable doctor for an assessment and they will tell you what you're working with, but probably average, maybe a little below. Although you did say the pics make it look worse.

Your graft amount is going to depend on things like how coarse your hair is, how many double, triple etc grafts you naturally have and so on, but you're going to need at least 6000 for decently dense conservative coverage. I would opt to do it over two surgeries, but there are a few clinics in the world who specialise in mega sessions who could potentially do 5-6000 in one session, look up Hasson and Wong and Eugenix for starters.

You can potentially get a 'full head of hair with a high hairline', yes. But, it's not really going to be a full head of hair, it won't be as dense as a non balding persons scalp - we're talking 50 grafts per cm/2 being classed as high density for a transplant generally speaking when non balding areas are often double this - but it can visually look close to it and fool the human eye in most scenarios (i.e. styled and dry). 

I would advise to try fin and see how you get on, it can only help and if you decide its not for you, stop taking it. no harm done and nothing to lose. Whilst it's probably not necessary in your case, you have more hair that it's possible to lose even at this point than you realise - go look up a NW7 pattern in detail.

Out of interest, at what age were you clearly showing the pattern of being as bald as you are now - was it clear you were heading here by your later 20's for example?

13 minutes ago, giegnosiganoe said:

Damn, so your hairline thinned that much over the past 10 years while on fin? That's kinda worrying..

By the looks of things, it seems to me that fin has kept his hair that was still strong and evidently largely unaffected by MPB back in the first photos (i.e. the bulk of his hair up top, right behind the hairline) in a very similar state 10 years down the line. This hair looks pretty much just as dense and healthy as it did back in 2011 to me. 

It is clear that the frontal hairline has thinned out nearly completely, but I think it needs to be taken into account just how miniaturised this area was 10 years ago in his original pictures. Look at the one from July 10th; you can see how see through the area that has now thinned out was back then, it provided some sort of illusion of an outline of hair, but it was extremely weak in reality and looked like it had miniaturised way, way past the 50 percent mark. It doesn't look like the present day thinning area has expanded much if at all beyond the area that was thinning back then; just that the hair that was still hanging on has since gone.

The fin definitely strengthened this area up somewhat as time went by, but ultimately, the damage was probably already done and this didn't last for too long/it wasn't able to fully recover as a result. Who knows though, maybe the OP just isn't really heavily predisposed to lose hair behind that original zone that he was losing in 10 years ago and that's why it hasn't progressed rather than the fin preventing things. I think probably a bit of both, but with that said, I would definitely bet things would be visibly more recessed without the meds, no question.

I do get the feeling that you're generally likely to be able to hold onto any hair that was initially very healthy and non-miniaturised when starting finasteride, probably for decades (perhaps indefinitely as long as your genetics aren't particularly strong in these areas of the scalp) without any real change, in comparison to hairs that were miniaturised when starting and then recovered. I feel like these recovered follicles will pretty much always inevitably reverse at some point if they were so far gone like OP, whereas you have a decent chance the other way round.

It's kind of just a feeling though (and generally just a logical thought process that makes sense). The pictures from the Japanese 10 year study for example actually show the vast majority of patients recovering noticeably from diffused type loss, and being at least slightly above baseline visually at the 10 year mark, so it would suggest that OP has actually been unlucky to lose his hairline in the same time-frame going by that evidence.

At the same time, most people probably wouldn't even re-grow as much as OP did in the same situation, just maintain and probably continue to lose those already heavily miniaturised hairs on the hairline. I know I didn't, I only have temple loss in a barely NW3 pattern and after 2 years on fin, the rest of my hair is unchanged, but the areas in the temples that were all probably 90+ percent thinned have just continued to do so. 

Honestly just don't bother, you don't want to be gambling on your head with no-name random clinics for the sake of convenience. Go to Europe for a cheaper price and see one of the worlds best surgeons.

If you absolutely won't travel, then look into Farjo, they're in Manchester.

Yeah, the back looks pretty good to me. You have fine hair, like myself, but it seems fairly dense from your vid, no issues. You can definitely have a transplant, as long as there are no issues with the donor. Check out Mr. Rolandas on YouTube, somewhat similar pattern of loss, probably even finer hair than you, he's currently documenting his second HT on his YT channel - could be a good place to get a feel of what's very much achievable. 

I can't really recommend you do or don't start oral min as I'm not a Dr, and it's more of an off-label type of use. Do some research online and have a think. Read some studies, papers, look up forum posts, speak to prospective surgeons about it etc. But essentially, the point of it is that it's more effective due to the fact that many people naturally lack the necessary sulfotransferase enzyme that enables minoxidil to work as a vasodilator and aid hair growth. With oral, it doesn't really matter if you have it or not due to the liver processing the drug meaning it should be pretty effective for anyone who uses it, which isn't the case with topical. 

Not a stupid question, it's hard to get prescribed by a GP, best bet is to speak to a HT doctor in the UK and get a prescription from them. Shouldn't be too difficult. 

Also, yes all surgeons are after our money at the end of the day to be blunt, but this is just like any other service offered or business in life - everything revolves around money. But there really are doctors who care about their patients and don't want to ruin their lives with a botched surgery. The good ones who have a conscience (and are also skilled mind you, which is few and far between) know how much hair loss affects those coming to them and they also know how much worse they would make things if they perform a bad surgery. Just with all people, some don't care and will do whatever to make a quick buck, whilst others actually want to help others and do what they can to improve their quality of life. 

The industry itself attracts a lot of conmen and unethical doctors by the nature of insecurity that is attached to it's customers and the vulnerabilities that can easily be preyed upon. Combined with a lot of money to be made of course. Just do a lot of research, you're obviously fairly new to all of this, so don't jump into anything before you have researched for a good amount of time - I would recommend at least 6 months.

I would look into the following doctors as a starting list: Dr. Bisanga, Dr. Feriudini, Dr. Bruno Pinto, Dr. Ximena Vila, Dr. Bruno Ferreira and Dr. Rafael De Freitas.

Back looks decent enough to me, but I think you should have your donor checked before any surgery due to your sides, doesn't look terrible or anything, just a bit patchy above the ears. Possibly just some retrograde, but it seems to go up a bit higher than usual if that is the case.

Honestly, right now, not too much. Finasteride plus oral Minoxidil would be a fairly potent combo, if you wanted to take things up a notch you could use RU or CB as a topical AA to take care of any leftover androgens, including testosterone, on the scalp itself.

This would be about as comprehensive as you can reasonably get really, but these are un-regulated drugs you would have to buy off the grey-market, so I would have to advise against doing so. You could use a milder topical AA such as Fluridil, but at the available dosages its probably not going to add much to the equation. 

Fin and min alone should do a pretty good job, microneedling in conjunction has been shown to be pretty effective, so I would just start with this and see how you get on after a year or 2.

You're a diffused pattern 5, meaning that you're not technically there yet as you still have hair on your scalp that is miniaturising heavily and providing a camoflauge of sorts, but you're definitely heading there fairly quickly. 

Without meds, you'll almost certainly be a true NW5 in the next five or so years I would imagine, maybe a little longer, maybe a little shorter. With meds, you could potentially see some good re-growth in your case due to the amount of miniaturised hairs that could possibly become fully terminal again. I assume you haven't been taking fin for very long just by reading your post, but it's normal to shed for months and months on end, especially in a case of diffuse loss, which would explain the hair on your pillows.

Your donor pictures aren't the greatest quality so it's hard to tell, plus the back isn't shown, but it looks a bit thin on the left side (can't see the right side due to the light contrast), so it doesn't look the best to be honest. Is it wet?

You need to do a lot more research, it's clear you're diving in head first without really knowing what you're doing and being aware of the fact that most HT surgeons are awful and will very likely leave you in a much worse position than you were before, which could have catastrophic consequences for the rest of your life. I don't mean that to call you out or be rude, just to prevent you from making a terrible decision. 

The potential of a poor or botched surgery is especially risky in the scenario you have said you want to pursue; a cheap Turkish clinic all inclusive. You'll likely be performed on by a highly inexperienced team of technicians who will very likely over harvest your donor and implant grafts in a completely unnatural fashion; miss angled, doubles in the hairline, poor density etc. You may even experience very poor growth and essentially pay to have your head heavily scarred and disfigured with no aesthetic improvement, quite the opposite in fact.

The best in Turkey are HLC, Pekiner and Kesser. HLC is 2.5 euros per graft and do very good work. 4000 USD per procedure isn't going to be enough to be honest, its too cheap. You can get world-class surgeons from 2.5-3.00 EUR per graft in Europe who do amazing work, so I would recommend to think of this as your cheapest budget if you don't want to risk things at all (which you shouldn't).

Also, do you have any pics of your hair? It's hard to advise if you're even a suitable candidate at this point if you're experiencing enough loss to warrant thinking about having 6000 grafts at 27, and I assume you're not on meds seeing as you didn't mention in your post

Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you, I think people often forget how lucky we are nowadays to have modern hair transplant technology/practices and ease of access to effective medications to prevent further loss, things were very different in 1991.

The good news is that things have come a long way since then, and results are far more successful and effective today. The bad news is that your donor looks very limited from what I can see, and I'm not sure how much you can reasonably give, even with modern techniques.

Body hair for your case will probably be a must... how is your beard and (potentially) chest hair? If you have a solid beard then you could take X thousand grafts from there and combine with a small amount via FUE from the donor and have some conservative coverage in your frontal third, leaving the crown sparse. Maybe Joe Biden-esque, but perhaps less dense.

I would recommend contacting Eugenix in India, probably the best choice for your case. But as I say, it will probably ride on the amount of body hair (mostly beard) you have available to give. 

As @EvoXOhiosays, I would just keep up with treatment for now (most importantly finasteride) and see how you get on from there. It might well improve things, two months is nothing. And if it doesn't, its very very likely to keep your hair in it's current state for a long time. If you're happy with it as is, then you won't need a transplant. 

Either way, stay on the meds for a year or two before you go and get a HT.

I think you've lost enough to justify it, you're not diffusely thinning at all by the looks of things and any grafts implanted will be in what are essentially slick bald or heavily miniaturised areas, so I wouldn't personally worry too much about shocking surrounding hairs permentantly (I'm in a fairly similar situation myself).

With that said, the way you style your hair (i.e. in the pics when its not pulled back), it looks pretty good and it's not obvious you're receding. At the end of the day, the whole point of a HT is fundamentally to 'fix' an issue you have with yourself, to rectify something that bothers you on a personal level.

If you don't really feel bad with your hair and it's not really affecting you mentally and impacting your life at all, why not hold off. It's never a bad idea to do nothing at all. You can always wait until it becomes an issue for you. 

6 minutes ago, Melange said:

I'm not happy because of the artas, I'm enticed as this is a surgeon in America. I think I saw him mentioned in a thread somewhere but it was a while back

Ah ok, well, the ARTAS alone would have me running for the hills, combined with the fact this Dr. is seemingly unknown and has no real results to see, I would strongly advise against.

I understand it's convenient as you don't have to travel, but there are a number of great surgeons in the U.S. - it's just going to cost more. It's a cliche around here, but you should never base your decision off of location in any case. Only on the patient posted results that impress you the most along with a good reputation, solid code of ethics and aftercare etc. 

As MachoVato says, you could make a trip out of it, go and see Portugal, Spain or Belgium for a few days and have your HT done by a world-class surgeon for the same price. Something to consider.

Never heard of him, maybe some other members have and can offer input, but I can't find any patient results on the forum either. Take from that what you will..

Also, use of ARTAS would (in general) strongly, strongly push me away from a prospective surgeon, not entice me, as it has seemed to do for yourself.

Any reason why you consider this to be a factor of being 'too good to be true' as you say? And what is the reason you have decided to consult with and consider this Dr?

For the price you've mentioned, you could go to some of the best surgeons in Europe (and in the world overall in my opinion) and get the same number of grafts, if not more. So, I would say no it's not too good to be true, it actually seems like it's not a very good option in the first place to me.  

Sounds like a good plan to me - just stick with the fin (which it sounds like you've been on for the past 2 years only from your post) and going by the most recent clinical data (and overall life-time data in general) you should be able to hold on to what you have with no issues well into your fifties - most likely 60's even in my opinion - and possibly beyond. Maybe the rest of your days, who knows. 

If the time ever comes that you need more grafts to address the areas behind your hairline, your donor looks decent judging by the sides of your head and I'm sure you will likely have another 5000-ish grafts or so available left over for the future after only 1500 extractions. You're in a good position, so I say go for it without any hesitations! 

1500 grafts should be a good number to give you a nice strong hair line whilst not going too far back into your existing hair, and Rahal is a good Dr, so I'm sure you'll be happy.

As a side note though, although yes it is clear you probably do indeed have some fairly minor thinning throughout the whole top when your hair is wet and under a harsh artificial light, I think it will look great in pretty much every other scenario once your results come in. Unless you're wetting your hair and combing through it under a harsh artificial light, I honestly doubt anyone would ever think your hair is thinning once your new hairline comes in. Even at the pool or beach with wet hair in normal sunlight, with your hair slicked back and a nice strong hairline on display, I don't think the partially visible scalp up top will register in the vast majority of peoples minds as baldness.

I would probably just see how the results of my surgery went, and then once results were in (and I was happy with them) I would just keep on with the meds and hold off on any more transplants until they were needed, which will probably be a decent amount of time. 

Was going to ask you to post some pics to be able to give any sort of answers to your questions, but I had a look at your profile and saw that you did in a previous post that I actually commented on and I remember.

Firstly, can you provide the names of the two surgeons you have consulted with so members here can give a more accurate opinion of their skill? It's a good sign if they're highly recommended by people on here, so I'm sure they're decent, but that would be helpful.

When you say online photos, this is great and all, but if they're all/majority clinic posted then ultimately they aren't super useful. Large amounts of patient posted results (from beginning to end, without the poster knowing how it was going to turn out) on this and other forums like it are what you should be looking for mostly as clinics often cherry pick their best results and post only them. Maybe they only post 5 percent of their results every year, with these being the best outcomes.

Price and distance shouldn't be major factors, I mean if the Dr's are both elite then great, its a plus that they're on your doorstep, but don't choose based off of geographical location alone. 

Lot's of good Dr's only do FUE these days, so this doesn't mean too much really, and looking at your photos, I can see why one has recommended FUT as you are around a NW5 so it would give you more lifetime grafts. It's impossible to say if all is equal if we don't know who the docs are, but generally the answer is no as every surgeon is different; some surgeons can get away with using less grafts and have similar results to another who used more. With that being said, if they're both very elite doctors, then things should be fairly equal in terms of results whichever you choose as they should both have similar levels of skill. No two will be the same, but it should be close if they're closely matched Dr's. 

500 grafts can make a difference, depends how they're used, rate of survival, where they're placed etc, but in any case its not a huge amount so its not going to be the difference between full coverage and sparse coverage, no. The only thing I will say is that, judging by your photos, I doubt you'll get any substantial coverage of your whole top with one 3-3500 graft procedure as you are a NW5.

You say you only want the one surgery, so if you're adamant about this you'll either need to accept one of two things; focusing on either the hairline or crown (I imagine it would be hairline, obviously) for decent density and coverage, or accepting low density and sparse coverage across your whole top. I would accept the need for two surgeries if I were you; one for the frontal third of about 3500 grafts and then another for the crown with what you have left about a year later. If you absolutely won't do this and are only willing to have one procedure, then I would go and have a mega session via FUT with Hasson and Wong of 5000+ grafts in one go, or the same via FUE with Eugenix in India. 

Hi @London2024 - so you're just looking for a scar revision and not another HT? Or are you looking to have another procedure?

If so, I would recommend Dr. Bisanga in Belgium - he's probably the best with afro hair and is one of the best in the world in general. 

Look into Dr Pinto too - who I'm booked in with myself. 2.60 EUR per graft (at least when I booked a few months back, don't know if his prices dropped during covid as I did hear he was more expensive previously, but I've no idea if that's the case really). Can see results here: 

Also, just to give my 2 cents, I think you're looking at low 3000's in terms of grafts if they graft into your mid scalp which, as has been pointed out, is thinning a bit.