tofur

Why do you keep latching onto these 5000 FUE megasessions as evidence of FUE being so close to FUT in donor management as to make it insignificant? 5-6k is the generally accepted limit to FUE'ing an average donor before donor issues show up, just because those guys look okay now doesn't mean you can get anymore appreciable amount of grafts out of that donor when they inevitably lose ground over the next 4-7 decades of their life. We won't even get into how far out of the true safe zone you have to go with FUE to get those big graft numbers and the risks that brings in the long term results.

The 5 year study was done with 1500 men and was double blind placebo controlled, it would take a lot of men to significantly skew the results. The 10 year study was shit by comparison, only 118 men.

#1 is a buzz cut, I'm talking about the Bruce Willis approach to hair loss, razoring it down to nothing or no-guard clipper at the most.

Yeah and which way are they trending? Time keeps marching on, for guys who still have a solid 50-70 years of life left 5 years is nothing. It's something you have to take into account before you permanently put hair on top of your head, that's all. There's no guarantee. Uhh you can't shave down with FUE either, it isn't a scarless procedure.

No for sure fin is better then nothing, every guy losing his hair should at least try it and see if it works well for them and they don't get sides. It just doesn't truly stabilize your loss forever, it slows it down. This is totally logical, it isn't eliminating all of your DHT it's just knocking it down, your DHT sensitive follicles are still getting hit by what's remaining in your system, just not to the same degree. My issue with it is when I see guys cutting up their heads on the premise that fin will forever keep their hair the way it is when they start it. There are many examples of men who switch to duasteride anywhere from 3 to 15 years into fin because they start losing significant ground and need more DHT suppression to maintain their hair. Problem with that is duasteride seems to have more side affects so it's a double edged sword. Ultimately, we need something new to stop native loss. Shiseido/replicel's RCH-01 is the most promising upcoming treatment to watch for, shiseido's phase 2 results will be out Q2 of 2018.

I called you a clown because of your personal attacks. You were trying to push FUE as a realistic option for guys needing a lot of grafts. Still haven't provided even one case of FUE approaching 10k. That guy you linked still had hair in the transplanted region, he wasn't cueball and wasn't a true NW 6 since his sides were still tall and his crown is still weak afterward. Anyone who's done even a modicum of research on HT knows that graft count alone is only part of the story. Hair caliber, number of multi-FU play a huge role in the final appearance so continuing to point out men that have thick dense hair to prove your point is disingenuous. I could point out NW 6 who get 5k grafts and look like shit but you'd just ignore it. If you get a HT while relying on fin and didn't know about the 2002 5 year study on fin then you have no business calling anyone stupid. The drug buys you time, that's it.

You really gotta lay off the personal attacks, makes you sound like a petulant little child. I didn't say it's not a good procedure because it can't achieve 10k grafts, why do you insist on continuing to project your own brand of bullshit onto others? It's a great procedure for the right situations, consistently getting 10k grafts out of a donor is not it's thing, in fact getting more then 5-6k grafts isn't it's thing. It has advantages but total graft count isn't one of them. Of course there are exceptions but it'd be a mistake for guys to assume they are that, rules are rules for a reason. You conveniently ignored my pointing out of the landmark study that showed guys are back at baseline after 5 years of fin, you get around 2 years of a increased hair count then it's all downhill from there. Fin delays and slows down the inevitable, it doesn't stop it. You're one of the lucky ones if you make it 15 years without losing ground. Now hopefully there's something else on the market to replace fin by that point but you can't rely on that potentiality that much, guys 15 years ago probably thought there'd be something else by now but here we are, relying on fin still. 15 years (or less) will come and go then all that hair that it's been holding for you behind that NW0-1 dense pack will be vacating your head. The transplants will remain. You now have to match that density across your whole damn head to avoid a really unnatural appearance (basically the opposite of natural balding where the front thins into the middle of your head, you'll have a thick front and thin middle/back). You don't have the grafts to do that, starting the hairline that low increases the surface area to cover dramatically and you've already used a large chunk of your donor. It's not a good situation.

Lmao you're a clown bro. The longest study on fin was 10 years and you're here spouting off "decades" as if there's any evidence supporting that claim and have the balls to call me stupid in the same post. Might wanna look in the mirror, you're projecting. The absolute general consensus is that you will start losing ground around the 10-15 year mark on fin, countless guys have experienced this to the point where it's odd to find a guy who hasn't lost ground by that point. There's also tons of guys who start losing ground after a couple years even though studies show most guys get a nice bump above baseline in the first 2 years then start a slow steady march back to baseline by year 5 or so (guess where they go after that...), it's not a magic bullet medicine it can stop working tomorrow and you're fucked. You won't find me ever defending Feller on his 75% claim and you're trying to run a false equivalency by lumping FUT focused doctors in with ones like Konior who is great at both and does a lot of both, talk about moving the goalposts. We were talking about Konior, a surgeon who does both methods very well and charges out the ass for FUE so he has a vested interest in pushing it but he still will tell a prospective client that they should strip out first if they are looking like they'll need all available donor. Your attempt to minimize the graft difference is pathetic though not at all surprising.

Yeah I see way too many guys who seem to only care about/focus on the present and the near future when the reality is that they have 40-70 years of life left and this shit is progressive in nature while the transplanted hairs most likely are permanent. It's a recipe for disaster if you go about it the wrong way and I see sooo many young guys dense packing their newfound NW 2.5-3 hairline back to a NW 0-1 with 2500-3k FUE (I see 4-5k too which is really bad). That bitch is gunna keep going and likely the midscalp and/or crown will go as well. The grafts add up quick. The guy tried to talk down Konior for fuck's sake. Talk about arrogant, you think you know better then a surgeon of that caliber as a layman then you've got serious issues. There's more to it then just pure graft numbers and %'s, I'm layman as fuck and even I know it comes down to scarring/fibrosis/damage to the existing grafts left behind/etc.

"Total lack of misfires" lol just lol if you really believe that. They aren't gunna broadcast their failures or the patients who have raped donors and are shit out of luck when they inevitably lose their remaining native hair and need more grafts. And strips are horrible once you've raped the donor with FUE, you can't count on that giving you any appreciable amount of grafts once you've done that FUE damage. Also we are talking about total donor supply, no shit these FUE megasessions show some results, we are talking about when those guys lose their remaining native hair and need thousands more grafts to maintain their look, they aren't getting another 4-5k grafts out of that megasession FUE'd donor. This is especially pertinent for the young guys who Erdogan loaded 4-5k grafts into their frontal 1/3rd. And the 10k graft number came from him hypothesizing that is what he has available and realistically NW 6/7 men need 10k at least to get a good result, every single case I've seen that's less then that would benefit immensely from thousands more grafts and quite frankly should've just shaved the remainder off and moved on, but that's their choice to make. And if you can't afford to move that many grafts you shouldn't have gotten a HT to begin with, no one can predict how bad your loss will get with the passage of time. Finally, Dr. Konior told me that the way to max out donor is to strip out before FUE'ing out. IF you think you know more then that guy then you really are delusional.

Lol well the most obvious response is that the men in those countries naturally have thicker hair so those doctors will have more examples to show off. And just because they can get guy's donors to appear non-raped after 5-6k grafts (7k+ is rare) doesn't mean they can double that amount afterward. You provide us with hundreds of 10k graft FUE cases and maybe I'll agree that it's something a man can count on.

The sketchy part of this is your assumption about future loss and how many grafts you'll need (requiring 2.5-3k now but assuming you'll only need 5k total over lifetime which is probably another 40 years of progressive loss), plus it's impossible to guess how bad your hair will get when fin stops working for you (not if, when). My hair isn't following any known family loss, it's earlier and worse. Also you say you don't blindly trust any doc but then seem to trust a doctor's coverage value equation in the next sentence. Also 10k grafts from just FUE is pretty much unheard of, so unless you're in the very tippy top % of men then that's not right, most men get like 5-6k grafts before the donor starts getting that depleted look. If it sounds too good to be true... yeah you might actually be in that top % but I'd be very careful making plans on that.

I thought it loses effectiveness over time...

So what was the reasoning behind so many grafts in that area? Can you do a little before/after showing of each procedure? I'm assuming you did a couple of 4k FUT's after that initial 2k one? Are you worried about your sides dropping down at some point when fin stops working?

Started as a NW2 and got 3k grafts, don't know what everyone else in this thread is smoking... your temples look pretty receded in the pics you've posted (which admittedly are all face-on mostly with your hair shading the hairline and don't show the temple area properly, seriously take some good lighted pics with your hair pulled back and from multiple angles so we can see the hairline), where did the 3k grafts go? We need a post op pic showing the graft layout because you look like a NW2 right now...also I think the hairline edge is too straight/uniform which gives it a bit of that hairpiece look but again, close up focused pictures will help a lot. Also FUE extraction can damage/stress the grafts enough to cause the hair to change it's character once it grows back in, which would explain why it seems markedly different to you. I'm preparing to get attacked for bringing this up but it's a thing that happens and is one of the potential downsides to FUE and it can come from both patient physiology and the ability of the person doing the extractions. Does asmed let techs do extractions or does the doctor do it all?

Don't worry about it man, people are naturally skeptical on these kinds of boards because nefarious shills are a thing and this is a bit of a unusual thread. If you run a search on here you'll find a lot of positive experiences with Gabel going back years (in fact this is the first negative toned one I've seen and I've read most all of them) so I'd say his PM is genuine. If he doesn't think you're a good candidate I'm sure he would just tell you that and give the reasons so you're educated about your situation, not leave you hanging. I find it amazing that he does the consult emails himself but naturally it means there might be more delay between emails or one falling behind as he's also doing procedures. If you're too shook by it then either get in line for Konior in Chicago or go with Dr. Hasson in Vancouver.

C'mon now this is a bit much, nobody is begging him to do anything, two or three have suggested he not give up on him over what is almost assuredly a unintended communication mishap and others were just asking for clarification on what exactly he experienced since it isn't that clear in his post. One person leveled a "shady" accusation and one other agreed. While I didn't accuse him of anything but simply relayed my experience during the same timeframe this (supposedly) happened in and pointed him in other top doc's direction, the part where he points a finger at Dr. Gabel for "still refusing to quote a price at all" set off my alarm bells since he offered it to me as part of a email before I even had to ask him about it and OP makes it sound like he's been trying to get the Dr. to give him the price and he's refused/dodged it. OP ignoring the doctor's own post and all requests for more clarifying info have just added to my initial mild skepticism, forgive me for also being a bit suspicious at this point. When I was doing my doctor research a thread like this would be very relevant and it's nice to hear a range of people's input/experience which is why I responded at all since you nailed the alternative doctor list right off the bat.

Strange, I've been emailing Dr. Gabel for a couple weeks now and just set up a date for the procedure and it all went smoothly, didn't have to press him for the price or anything like that. But, what he said ^. In that general part of the U.S it's really Gabel and Konior at the top as far as I know, but Konior has a year+ long wait. Dr. Alexander is another one to look into, he's in Arizona. If Canada then H&W also are on the list.

I'm not sure about fixing the pitting, that's something to ask Cooley. If nothing else the added density will conceal it for you. I think it won't even take 2k grafts to reinforce what you have here, 1500 would be solid. If you don't want the scar to get any longer at all then that does limit the amount of grafts that can be taken along with the existing scar. This depends on your donor and how dense it is and what kind of FU's are near the scar. Bosley 15 years ago compared to Cooley today is like comparing a 1990 honda civic to a 2017 Mercedes Benz. Here's a Cooley result I saved when I was researching docs (going with Gabel but Cooley was one of the other 2 on my short list):

Cooley is a top 5 FUT surgeon in North America, probably globally actually. You're lucky he's nearby! Yes, stress can induce a shed. I'm thinking that is the issue along with the normal seasonal shed we all go through around this time of year (July-August). When fin stops working in long term users it isn't a dramatic shut off like you're describing, they just notice that over time they are losing some ground as the drug stops halting loss as well as it had been. These good FUT docs will remove the current scar as part of the new strip and then do a good closure for you, so no it doesn't have to get longer. Damn 1cm is a huge scar, even .5cm is large for these top docs these days, most are no more then 3mm. Cooley will fix that for ya.

This is 8-10k grafts, the >1000 was a hairline touchup.

Yes FUT is the clear winner if not shaving the donor is important. They tape the hair above the chosen strip up out of the way and put a gauze pad down around the bottom then shave the strip itself and maybe a little bit on either side to make the incisions easier. Once it's done and sutured up your hair on top covers it.

Great post except the cosmetic results part, I really can't tell a difference cosmetically between the good FUE and FUT results. I don't have a dog in this fight since I'm probably going to have both procedures done at some point. They just have different functions and ideal uses and so often on here I see people pushing FUE as this cure-all miracle treatment that makes strip totally obsolete when it's not, at all. I was initially totally against getting strip for the obvious reason (strip cut out, scar, eww gross no thanks) and also because I only had heard the surface level chatter about FUT vs FUE and the latter sounded like the new hotness, then I did the more research. Couple years later now I'm signed up for a strip with Gabel. My personal situation warrants going with strip until I can't anymore then still having the rest of the safe zone for FUE harvest, for me the thought of running out of donor is far more terrifying then having a scar hidden by hair. The rest of the FUT bonuses are just icing on the cake. The only downside is the scar, and after some thought I concluded it really is irrelevant when you're in the hands of a top FUT surgeon, have a normal donor (i.e not thin) and never plan on wearing your hair shorter then a 3-4 guard. If some wizard snapped his fingers and a top doc strip scar appeared on my head without my knowledge I would have no idea it was there.

As far as I can tell Dr. Bloxham is right, how those three detrimental forces have been overcome was never explained, and frankly I can't even begin to imagine how they would be without violating the laws of physics but I'm not a surgeon so my knowledge on the subject is obviously limited. There are cases of great FUE results that appear to match FUT so obviously it's possible to move a couple thousand grafts and have them survive the ordeal well enough to grow in healthy, or maybe those patients just had ideal physical characteristics for the procedure which combined with the great surgeons doing the work is what minimized the forces on the grafts as they were extracted. More studies need to be done obviously. There's no question it's a procedure that requires a lot of experience and skill to pull off consistently well. This makes all the FUE tech mills popping up very concerning, so many guys are getting burned by misleading marketing about how it's this new great procedure that's scarless and supersedes strip in every way. The over harvested/damaged/halo'd/moth eaten looking donor is becoming the new version of the old-school bigass strip scar.