Ashwaganda & Tongkat Ali effects on hair loss

[NickJ]

Hey guys,

I would like to try out those 2 natural supplements that are supposed to be good for daily life and lifting (and sports in general). They both raise Testosterone (for Tongkat Ali supposedly without raising DHT).

The issue of course is that I just had a HT and I'm only 29 so I'm asking myself if it would be a good move? I take 0,5 mg/day of Fin but I don't know if it make it safe to raise my T.

 

Anyone has experience with those supplements?

*Image is only illustrative I'm not making an advertisement for any brand in particular

 

[sunsurfhair]

Get your levels checked prior to usage. You should while on fin anyway. Test (total/free), Estradiol sensitive, DHT. You may not even need them if your levels are normal. I’ve used both and haven’t noticed any increase in hair loss. 

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, sunsurfhair said:

Get your levels checked prior to usage. You should while on fin anyway. Test (total/free), Estradiol sensitive, DHT. You may not even need them if your levels are normal. I’ve used both and haven’t noticed any increase in hair loss. 

It's not that I need it, it's purely to improve my athletic performances and general well being.

Did you get noticeable effects from these 2 plants?

[sunsurfhair]

28 minutes ago, NickJ said:

It's not that I need it, it's purely to improve my athletic performances and general well being.

Did you get noticeable effects from these 2 plants?

Ashwghanda I like for the stress control. I do notice it helps with that. Tongkat I don’t notice much of a difference when I take it or don’t. Maybe a slight libido bump.
 

Creatine and Arginine / Citruline give me the biggest benefits with the gym and recovery. Creatine has not increased my serum DHT or caused additional loss. 

[NickJ]

Creatine does help a lot indeed and I think that the increase in hair-loss it's supposed to cause was debunked

Thanks for your feedback

[Johnny129]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Creatine does help a lot indeed and I think that the increase in hair-loss it's supposed to cause was debunked

Thanks for your feedback

Where was it debunked Nick? I used to use it years ago but havent done recently due to the potential hair loss. Im starting topical Dut soon and was going to start the creatine again then to minimise risk

[Johnny129]

I use Ashwagandha and I like it. Does raise test levels but also reduces cortisol which you dont want too high especially when you're training. Also, not sure if you'll need it but helps calms. Im a lot more chilled and things dont agitate me as much

[NickJ]

16 minutes ago, Johnny129 said:

Where was it debunked Nick? I used to use it years ago but havent done recently due to the potential hair loss. Im starting topical Dut soon and was going to start the creatine again then to minimise risk

It all comes from one study done on young guys from 18/19 years old, so they actually don't know if it was really the creatine that made the hair-loss progress or if it simply due to the fact that people with MPB can lose a lot of hair at that age.

 

 

[Johnny129]

10 minutes ago, NickJ said:

It all comes from one study done on young guys from 18/19 years old, so they actually don't know if it was really the creatine that made the hair-loss progress or if it simply due to the fact that people with MPB can lose a lot of hair at that age.

 

 

It comes from a study of rugby players. Didnt contain anything about hairloss directly but an increase in DHT. There is controversy around the study with doubts and differing opinions but there are people on both sides in terms of whether it can accelerate hairloss in those prone to MPB or not. 

[NickJ]

17 minutes ago, Johnny129 said:

It comes from a study of rugby players. Didnt contain anything about hairloss directly but an increase in DHT. There is controversy around the study with doubts and differing opinions but there are people on both sides in terms of whether it can accelerate hairloss in those prone to MPB or not. 

 

 

[Johnny129]

4 minutes ago, NickJ said:

 

 

Some context or reasons why you have included this vid would be good. Thanks.

[NickJ]

Matt Dominance and Hair cafe are the 2 youtubers I trust the most about Hair Loss 

Both seem to say that it should be ok, notably the second video I sent talks about the difference between scalp DHT and serum DHT

The issue is that a lot of people do report that creatine literally destroyed their hair, is it really the reason or not I don't know

I guess that there is still no definitive answer on it and every guy with MPB should evaluate if it's worth the risk or not

For me it had definitely an effect on my workouts and athletic performance but my face looked puffier (when I gain weight it tends to go straight to the face), so I always had a love hate relationship with it.

Also you lose the bulky aspect after a few weeks not taking it and you will also gain 2-3 kg on it

Even when I type those lines I'm torn apart if it is a good Idea or not to take it

 

Ideally I would like to switch to Tongkat Ali and drop Creatine, that's the why of the thread

[NickJ]

Reading this seems to good to be true 🤤

[Johnny129]

17 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Matt Dominance and Hair cafe are the 2 youtubers I trust the most about Hair Loss 

Both seem to say that it should be ok, notably the second video I sent talks about the difference between scalp DHT and serum DHT

The issue is that a lot of people do report that creatine literally destroyed their hair, is it really the reason or not I don't know

I guess that there is still no definitive answer on it and every guy with MPB should evaluate if it's worth the risk or not

For me it had definitely an effect on my workouts and athletic performance but my face looked puffier (when I gain weight it tends to go straight to the face), so I always had a love hate relationship with it.

Also you lose the bulky aspect after a few weeks not taking it and you will also gain 2-3 kg on it

Even when I type those lines I'm torn apart if it is a good Idea or not to take it

 

Ideally I would like to switch to Tongkat Ali and drop Creatine, that's the why of the thread

Exactly my point. The jurys still out and thats just their interpretation of the data. I wouldn't say its been debunked.

Barring Andrew Huberman talk about it I don't really know too much about Tongkat Ali so can't comment on it. It is a completely different compound to creatine so Im not sure how that swap would work out 

[Johnny129]

I do miss creatine and I will jump back on at some point. I actually had my DHT levels checked and waiting for the results. Once I've been on creatine for a few weeks I'll get the DHT levels checked again and see whats what

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Johnny129 said:

I do miss creatine and I will jump back on at some point. I actually had my DHT levels checked and waiting for the results. Once I've been on creatine for a few weeks I'll get the DHT levels checked again and see whats what

This can also be interesting 

 

[Johnny129]

6 minutes ago, NickJ said:

This can also be interesting 

 

Yeah he likes it due to its cognitive effects if I remember

[NickJ]

2 minutes ago, Johnny129 said:

Yeah he likes it due to its cognitive effects if I remember

Yep right, he also does not make definitive statement
He takes Dutasteride so I guess a DHT increase is not that important anymore, but personally I'm not needing Dutasteride yet

[general-etwan]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

Creatine does help a lot indeed and I think that the increase in hair-loss it's supposed to cause was debunked

Thanks for your feedback

It was never proven that creatine causes hair loss or contributes to already happening hair loss in any significant way, and if one is taking finasteride to lower scalp DHT then surely creatine is completely safe to take without worry that it will cause any further hair loss than is destined to happen anyway. 
 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by general-etwan

[NickJ]

3 minutes ago, general-etwan said:

It was never proven that creatine causes hair loss or contributes to already happening hair loss in any significant way, and if one is taking finasteride to lower scalp DHT then surely creatine is completely safe to take without worry that it will cause any further hair loss. 
 

 

 

mmmh that's what I thought even in my first response to Johnny but the conclusion from more experts on the topic is "your call, you can chose between creatine or saving a few years on your MPB"

[Johnny129]

There was a specific study taking place which was going to directly look at creatine and hair loss but for some reason (ahem) funding was withdrawn and it was stopped in its tracks. 

[Johnny129]

25 minutes ago, general-etwan said:

It was never proven that creatine causes hair loss or contributes to already happening hair loss in any significant way, and if one is taking finasteride to lower scalp DHT then surely creatine is completely safe to take without worry that it will cause any further hair loss than is destined to happen anyway. 
 

 

 

It was never disproven either

[A Fue Good Men]

Not worth the risks imo. If something raises T to a significant degree (not sure if these do) then ultimately it’s not good for hair loss

[RTC]

Good thread.

3 minutes ago, 5BetaReductase said:

Not worth the risks imo. If something raises T to a significant degree (not sure if these do) then ultimately it’s not good for hair loss

But ashwaghanda and tongkat would never raise test to superphysiological levels - I imagine thats the risk for hairloss, not something mild as these.

[Vann]

If you think creatine makes you lose hair let me ask you something then let me know how you see creatine.

 

if you have hair falling out because of DHT, is it because you have too much or too little dht in your system? 

would exposing your body to more/less cause any change? 

Let’s say if you worked out every single time and exposed your body to more testosterone (let’s say a good leg day) you will most definitely increase your test levels, even temporarily, however do you see your hair falling out each time?

your genetic disposition determines whether your hair follicle is sensitive to dht. You could have a ton of dht in your system but it doesn’t mean you lose hair. At the same time you could virtually have almost no dht in your system but have follicles extremely sensitive that even the smallest amount would make you lose hair. 
 

your body’s threshold against dht is the primary factor of whether or not you lose hair (solely talking about mpb and not other conditions). You can most definitely get tested for testosterone, creatine, creatinine, and dht but it doesn’t always mean one is not mutually exclusive to the other. 
 

now there are some people who do lose hair because of the increase of DHT because the follicles are already sensitive that they have miniaturized but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t already progressing to that stage. It takes time and is never immediate. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Vann