Bill - Seemiller Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 In our latest forum newsletter, we presented information on FUE written by Dr. Ron Shapiro with a basic introduction and a link to FUE on our website. Whereas I agree it might be time to take another look at and potentially revise some of the FUE information on our website written a couple of years ago, one particular clinic representative (Bart from Prohair Clinic) took offense at what was written and felt they were being targeted by the statement that some clinics overhpe FUE online. Though we weren't targeting any particular clinics, I find his response uncanny considering his clinic chose not to address the legitimate concerns posted by members of this community when his doctor was being considered for potential recommendation. Additionally, Bart failed to acknowledge the other point we made which was that some clinics are quick to dismiss its potential benefits. I suppose instead of seeing this newsletter for the balanced content it contains, he chose to take personal offense and then misconstrue the content written to make it appear that we're against FUE as an option altogether - which is simply untrue. Bart claims the information presented in this newsletter was "misleading" or "uneducated". The bottom line is that we try to provide a balanced view of the benefits, limitations, and risks associated with both procedures and let adult members and guests of our community draw their own conclusions. Below, Bart targets particular statements on our website he disagrees with. Bart would have you believe that FUE is the only hair transplant solution. Thus, it is no surprise that he disagrees with any of the mentioned benefits of strip surgery we've provided. I've presented the information below with his criticism for discussion. ------------------ Newsletter Information ------------------ Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE) Realities and Hype Exposed Recently, we published a well written summary of the follicular unit extraction (FUE) procedure, its advantages, and its disadvantages by Coalition member Dr. Ron Shapiro who recently started to experiment with FUE at his clinic. FUE has been notoriously overhyped online by some clinics while other clinics underestimate its potential advantages in some circumstances. Reading this well balanced article was extremely refreshing. For those of you who are interested in considering the FUE procedure as a strip alternative, you are encouraged to read "The Evolution, Advantages, and Disadvantages of Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE) Hair Transplant Surgery". Feel free to offer your input on this thread. ------------------ Bart's Critique ------------------ Hi all, It has been a while since my last posting, but as usual summertime is the busiest time oft he year. However this morning I received an email from another forum with the title 'Differentiating FUE reality from hype'. Since our patient is late I took some time to read the content of the mail. Basically the information in the mail is about how FUE has been overhyped by some clinics. I figure that since Prohairclinic is an FUE only clinic that we are on the target list. After reading through some of the information provided in the mail I wonder if parts of that information is intentionally twisted or if the writer has based himself upon old information? For example there is a link to a video where FUE is being performed. This video must be either very old or the dr. is using an outdated version of FUE. The round punch is clearly 1 mm or larger, something which is not used by true FUE experts. In the mail many attempts are made to minimize the impact of strip surgery 'recent advances in donor closure techniques..' or 'this has made the additional costs and time requirements of doing the fue procedure less appealing'. Furthermore some of the provided pictures show and 'ideal' strip scar, which is IMHO an exception rather than the rule. My gut feeling is telling me that whoever wrote this must clearly have an agenda, or is simply uneducated about FUE procedures. If the latter than he or she should have investigated before publishing misleading information. By the way, the argument that strip procedures are more economical is a good laugh. Just watch prices go down once more doctors will be performing FUE, the economic laws will take care of the rest. The same has happened in the past for FUT surgery where prices have gone down due to competition and the ability to transplant higher numbers of grafts per day. We all know that a lot of money is involved in the field of hair surgery and the marketing machines that have been created to promote doctors and or institutes. Buyer be aware! ------------------- I will agree that leading clinics today use smaller than a 1mm punch and the video on our website needs to be updated. However, I'd like to know what's "uneducated" or "misleading" about this statement: "this has made the additional costs and time requirements of doing the fue procedure less appealing" To date, most clinics still charge more for FUE because it's more labor intensive. In my opinion, the only people with agendas, are those quick to dismiss the facts and the majority opinion voiced by leading physicians like Dr. Alan Feller and Dr. Ron Shapiro have presented on FUE on this forum. Buyer be aware indeed! Considering the majority of leading hair restoration surgeons feel that strip is more consistent, until the exeption to the group can prove the majority wrong, I'd say what's presented in the above article is still the popular and majority opinion. Feel free to offer your input on the above. We certainly welcome all viewpoints on FUE. However, those who are going to make bold claims without supporting evidence will be challenged in this community. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 In our latest forum newsletter, we presented information on FUE written by Dr. Ron Shapiro with a basic introduction and a link to FUE on our website. Whereas I agree it might be time to take another look at and potentially revise some of the FUE information on our website written a couple of years ago, one particular clinic representative (Bart from Prohair Clinic) took offense at what was written and felt they were being targeted by the statement that some clinics overhpe FUE online. Though we weren't targeting any particular clinics, I find his response uncanny considering his clinic chose not to address the legitimate concerns posted by members of this community when his doctor was being considered for potential recommendation. Additionally, Bart failed to acknowledge the other point we made which was that some clinics are quick to dismiss its potential benefits. I suppose instead of seeing this newsletter for the balanced content it contains, he chose to take personal offense and then misconstrue the content written to make it appear that we're against FUE as an option altogether - which is simply untrue. Bart claims the information presented in this newsletter was "misleading" or "uneducated". The bottom line is that we try to provide a balanced view of the benefits, limitations, and risks associated with both procedures and let adult members and guests of our community draw their own conclusions. Below, Bart targets particular statements on our website he disagrees with. Bart would have you believe that FUE is the only hair transplant solution. Thus, it is no surprise that he disagrees with any of the mentioned benefits of strip surgery we've provided. I've presented the information below with his criticism for discussion. ------------------ Newsletter Information ------------------ Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE) Realities and Hype Exposed Recently, we published a well written summary of the follicular unit extraction (FUE) procedure, its advantages, and its disadvantages by Coalition member Dr. Ron Shapiro who recently started to experiment with FUE at his clinic. FUE has been notoriously overhyped online by some clinics while other clinics underestimate its potential advantages in some circumstances. Reading this well balanced article was extremely refreshing. For those of you who are interested in considering the FUE procedure as a strip alternative, you are encouraged to read "The Evolution, Advantages, and Disadvantages of Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE) Hair Transplant Surgery". Feel free to offer your input on this thread. ------------------ Bart's Critique ------------------ Hi all, It has been a while since my last posting, but as usual summertime is the busiest time oft he year. However this morning I received an email from another forum with the title 'Differentiating FUE reality from hype'. Since our patient is late I took some time to read the content of the mail. Basically the information in the mail is about how FUE has been overhyped by some clinics. I figure that since Prohairclinic is an FUE only clinic that we are on the target list. After reading through some of the information provided in the mail I wonder if parts of that information is intentionally twisted or if the writer has based himself upon old information? For example there is a link to a video where FUE is being performed. This video must be either very old or the dr. is using an outdated version of FUE. The round punch is clearly 1 mm or larger, something which is not used by true FUE experts. In the mail many attempts are made to minimize the impact of strip surgery 'recent advances in donor closure techniques..' or 'this has made the additional costs and time requirements of doing the fue procedure less appealing'. Furthermore some of the provided pictures show and 'ideal' strip scar, which is IMHO an exception rather than the rule. My gut feeling is telling me that whoever wrote this must clearly have an agenda, or is simply uneducated about FUE procedures. If the latter than he or she should have investigated before publishing misleading information. By the way, the argument that strip procedures are more economical is a good laugh. Just watch prices go down once more doctors will be performing FUE, the economic laws will take care of the rest. The same has happened in the past for FUT surgery where prices have gone down due to competition and the ability to transplant higher numbers of grafts per day. We all know that a lot of money is involved in the field of hair surgery and the marketing machines that have been created to promote doctors and or institutes. Buyer be aware! ------------------- I will agree that leading clinics today use smaller than a 1mm punch and the video on our website needs to be updated. However, I'd like to know what's "uneducated" or "misleading" about this statement: "this has made the additional costs and time requirements of doing the fue procedure less appealing" To date, most clinics still charge more for FUE because it's more labor intensive. In my opinion, the only people with agendas, are those quick to dismiss the facts and the majority opinion voiced by leading physicians like Dr. Alan Feller and Dr. Ron Shapiro have presented on FUE on this forum. Buyer be aware indeed! Considering the majority of leading hair restoration surgeons feel that strip is more consistent, until the exeption to the group can prove the majority wrong, I'd say what's presented in the above article is still the popular and majority opinion. Feel free to offer your input on the above. We certainly welcome all viewpoints on FUE. However, those who are going to make bold claims without supporting evidence will be challenged in this community. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted July 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 6, 2009 I wouldnt say Ron just started to experiment because the experiment has been done but I do believe he keeps the limitations at the forefront. Ive seen ALOT of INCREDIBLE results using exclusively the FUE method . I can post them if you want. 99.9% of clinics shy away and I dont blame them. Why work harder when you dont have to. In strip the doc usually works 25% of the time and with FUE its much much higher. So far though the yield from strip seems better EXCEPT from a handful of clinics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 PGP, I think you totally missed the point of the above post. Nobody is arguing that FUE can't produce incredible results in some candidates. However, while Dr. Ron Shapiro, Dr. Alan Feller, and other leading surgeons accurately present both the benefits and limitations of FUE, some clinics have a tendency to promote only the benefits while others steer completely away from it altogether. The reason for this post was to call out Bart who apparently has a problem that we provide a balanced view of both FUT and FUE while he promotes FUE as a surefire technique and strip replacement. Frankly, it's totally hypocritcal for Bart to claim we have an agenda for providing a balanced view on both procedures while he continues to hype the benefits of FUE on other forums while failing to acknowledge the disadvantages of the procedure. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Mr. GQ Posted July 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 6, 2009 fair enough Bill! he went public so did you. now we go to the mattresses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted July 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 6, 2009 It's interesting that Bart is so quick to cry foul and decry "misrepresentation" of fact. His initial contention regarding punch size is valid, and I know Dr's Feller, Shapiro, as well as Bill would agree, but it's really tangental to the meat being exposed in the newsletter; to raise this point under this context is a simple tactic of deflection (whether it is conscious or unconscious is debateable), and one which is actually quite debateable since Dr. Cole, unquestionably considered a paramount figure of FUE, uses and has used such punch sizes in recent time. Bart then plays coy and condescends the assertion: "many attempts are made to minimize the impact of strip surgery...'recent advances in donor closure techniques..' This could be a valid contention for Bart to raise if only the very thing he is referencing wasn't actually so true! Yes, attempts are made to minimize the impact of strip surgery; attempts *have* been made to minimize the impact of strip surgery! Bart then mentions "ideal strip scars" -- as if to imply and cast an injurious cloud over the newsletter in that the examples being shown are anything but *just* that: examples! And that is precisely what they are; and showing simply offers patients a more balanced view of what can and cannot be achieved with regard to scarring (a very touchy subject for rote, FUE vendors). Bart closes with a good laugh, indeed: he mocks the statement that strip is more economical while throwing out a future, economic possiblity....except for but one, ironic problem: there is but one *fact* at play, and it is that strip *is* more economical. Perhaps, Bart's guess will be proved right in the future, though I'm no Miss Cleo. Indeed, there is a lot of money involved in the field of hair surgery; and, indeed, there are marketing machines in play to promote doctors, institutes, and, yes, FUE, too. Anything can be debated; anything can be contorted; ultimately, facts need to be placed onto a table with the curtian pulled back and allow people to make informed decisions, not based upon emotion and personal interest, but by fact and logic. EDIT -- if Bart made these claims outside of the forum, I still think it's fair game....it sounds like they definitely were to me, but I agree that it should be clarified. EDIT Deux -- I do agree that this thread is "retaliatory", but I personally don't have any beef with that. Maybe I just like the rumble of a good fight, but what is debate if not a sequence of retaliations? ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted July 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 6, 2009 I didnt miss the point because Im not disagreeing with you Your right in that all sides of FUE should be discussed but just as some strip only clinics never talk about the downside with strip, hes the same way with fue. Nuhart told me my scar would look like the crease in my hand , yeah ok It is hypocritical if he said this. I must of missed his post here. I wasnt trying to debate anything in your post but the word experiment . Saying Ron is just starting to experiment gives me the impression hes new at this. Yes they just recently starting offering it but hes been doing fue for a long time . Whether its using fue to remove grafts or do a smaller amount hes been doing fue for quite some time . He offered it to me almost 3 years ago for scar repair so I think the experiment is over . He has added another weapon in his arsenal that I believe is permanent I wouldnt want to go to a clinic during their experimental phase . I know what you meant by it but others may not. Its not like Dr Fellers PRP ,or Dr Jones Acell experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Mr. GQ, Bart expressed his opinion and claimed we have an "agenda" publicly on another form. Thus, I'm perfectly within my right to call him out publicly and defend the content that we provide. Had he sent me a respectful email privately without crying foul, we could have discussed this like adults and he could have offered his view and I may have considered it if he could provide proof and not simply more hype. Frankly, if anyone has an agenda, it's those who oversell the benefits of a particular procedure while attempting to discredit another. Thus, given the hypocrisy of Bart's public post, I felt compelled to call him out on it. PGP, Fair enough. Dr. Shapiro is still relatively new to FUE all things considering. But I agree that he's gone beyond experimentation at this point. Thanatopsis, Very level headed responses to Bart's argument above. Bart is very one sided and biased against strip surgery. The bottom line is that both procedures have their place. To date however, most leading hair restoration surgeons would agree that strip surgery is a more viable solution and more consistent in most patients. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 By the way... In the interest of fairness, I welcome Bart to reply to this post if he wants to share his viewpoint and back it up with facts. He obviously had no problem crying foul on another forum claiming we have an "agenda" because we attempt to provide balanced and fair information on both procedures. Thus I expect he'll have no problem debating it here. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Mr. GQ Posted July 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 6, 2009 Bart expressed his opinion and claimed we have an "agenda" publicly on another form. well in that case then we lynch him. what all these all-fue clinics think they are??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member swim Posted July 10, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted July 10, 2009 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted July 10, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted July 10, 2009 Huh? Debate as a catalyst for retaliation? Dunno what you're talking about.... ...you sound hyper-sensitive in your personal semantics...it was never said that debate is a "catalyst" for retaliation; it was said that a debate itself is, by nature, retaliatory and that it is thus invariably composed of a sequence of "retaliaton" by way of point -- and counter-point -- that are henseforth used to settle an argument. EDIT -- on 2nd thought, tho this was never initially said, debate is in fact an excellent catalyst specifically for retaliation; as a tool for change by way of powerful persuasion. But yes, it is certaintly true that debate is an instrument when proving an argument. ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member swim Posted July 10, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted July 10, 2009 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now