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19 minutes ago, mr_peanutbutter said:

Now HMI-115 is the big deal there

 

it appears to be another disappointment, kevin mann recently made a video about it

Exactly, there are lively discussions on all those treatments that are bound to fail, but as far as I see, there is no talk about vp. 

Are they just unaware / stupid or do they see things we don't?

52 minutes ago, Nikoni said:

There are companies who want to make money on these drugs, there is no such company that can make a lot of money on verteporfin. Even if we didn't have Dr. Barghouthis results, Harvard guys did very successful Red Duroc trial which is closest to human skin and filed patents for scarless healing and hair regeneration. That alone should be enough for believing in Vert. These guys have incomparably more knowledge and understanding about skin and scarring. 
Most surgeons are in comfort zone and make good money, so they have no need to add something new and risky.

The science as well as the preliminary results are promising indeed. That is why it surprises me that there are few docs trying it out. Maybe not the top guys, but the lesser known surgeons in the West or in countries like Turkey and India have a lot to gain by perfecting this method. I think. 

20 hours ago, Jonathan said:

While I agree, I just don’t understand the constant agreeing to certain dates then back tracking. a couple of times is certainly understandable, but every single date he’s set the past 5-6 months has been not only wrong, way off only to be replaced with another date that’s also off. At that point just refund the money you took and don’t bother, I promise especially with the current results we’ll find another doctor. If I went to a homeless shelter and promised to feed everyone on a certain date, then delayed they’d be ok, do that over and over, they’re gonna turn on you.

All this time, I get the feeling that I / we miss something very obvious. The guys over at hairlosstalk are very involved in the hairloss industry, but are not talking about vert at all. They were however all over all kinds of either obvious scams or possibly legit projects that would however take at least 10/15 to commercialize such as Brotzu, Sheseido, Tsuji, Stemson etc.etc. Now HMI-115 is the big deal there. I havent followed it very closely, but in terms of potential, it doesn't seem to come close to vp. 

Given the results that dr. Barghouthi has shown, I would expect everybody in this space to focus on vp. Despite some interest of docs and of course the trials of dr. Bloxham, there doesn't seem to be that much happening. I would expect much more young and ambitious docs to try this stuff, but dr. Bloxham is so far the only one who did. And for him and dr. Barghouthi , it doesn't seem to be a topic that is that important.

Could it be that we are overblowing the results? Maybe we miss something that makes dr. Barghouthi's pics less impressive? Maybe the higher density in the test area has other reasons than vp? It is an optical illusion that others see through but we don't?

So all my theories about dr. Bloxham not showing results because of alterior motives can go into the dustbin

Nice results in the sense that at least some regrowth is observed. Hopefully we can establish percentages in upcoming trials and answer questions about the possibility to achieve the same regrowth with already transplanted grafts. 

7 hours ago, takuma said:

Dr Parissis uploaded a new video with Dr Bloxham, it's not verteporfin related though ☹️

At this point, I think that we can put the idea that he is "too busy" to do updates to bed. He doesn't talk about vp anymore because he doesn't want to.

It could very well be bad. Maybe the results are disappointing and he can't be bothered anymore. In that case, one would expect that he would at least upload the monthly updates he receives from his patients to his discord or so. That really would cost only a couple of minutes.

Side effects and / or legal trouble or something related to that are also possible. Something could have gone wrong and therefore, talking publicly about the experiment potentially hurts him.

My bet however is still that he is onto something and wants to reap the benefits himself. Given that it has become super hard to source vp it is clear that its demand is increasing, like the other poster said possibly from other docs as well. These would be positive signals of course, because they all point to vp doing something positive.

6 minutes ago, takuma said:

Believe me square...i feel ur frustration... I'm not happy about this..this sucks and i just want him to update in some way, either verbally, in written form or by uploading a video update... it's easier to get updates from Dr Bargouthi because he updates us directly on the forum and we can tag him so when he's not busy he sees that, and he is a member of the community, I'm not sure if Dr Bloxham is. I think the best thing we can do with Dr Bloxham is have someone see him regularly as a client, and ask him in person and then relay the information back to us here. I think someone said they are going to see him for a consultation, so they might get an update for us.

My idea about docs taking the solo route would be an indication of vp working and docs working towards a product, which is the result we all want. So please don't take it as frustration. It might be cope, but logically I think this is a real possibility.

I make a great detective, by the way

1 hour ago, takuma said:

this doesn't make sense to me...for docs to suddenly decide to make their trials secret, because the cat's out of the bag already...there would be no point in doing that, the word of mouth has been spreading like wildfire..we now have dermatologists interested in doing trials on scar patients... this isn't something u can really keep secret... i think it's more likely that they are busy more than anything

I hope that you spot the contradiction in your argument that everybody and their mother now wants to know about verteporfin, but that docs performing these experiments can't be bothered with giving even a short update. Not to rag on dr. Bloxham, but he recently posted a vid in which he goes on for 15 minutes about whether an HT looks good with gel. So you are saying that he has time for that, but not for an update that the whole world is supposedly waiting for? He even said after the Month 3 update that he would for future months just throw the results online. So that would require less time than the last video. You just can not convince me that he doesn't have that little time for an update that so many are supposedly waiting for but he can go on and on about how your HT looks with gel.

I think that there are some people in the know about the potential of vp, but there are still a lot of unknowns. The person who has these answers the first, has an edge and can exploit it commercially for about a year or so I think, before others catch up.

Btw, laugh at me if I turn out to be wrong, but let's be real: after dr. Barghouthi's last pics it is clear that the stuff likely works. If not, it could be an honest mistake or a scam. An honest mistake seems unlikely, you don't end up with a test area that is so much better than the control area due to some small mistake. A scam is also unlikely, dr. Barghouthi invested his own money, but makes nothing from this and puts his reputation on the line. 

15 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I think that it’s very fair to do private trials, but start them privately. Like I told one other user here who him and his dr decided to back out the trial last minute, if you’re getting all your info from us, advertising it for a certain date and as public, then backing out for self gain isn’t illegal but definitely exploitive. I think eventually though we’ll see one of these docs start to offer it to customers and then we’ll see what was really happening behind the scenes.

I understand the moral angle, but let's not fool ourselves. Even if you announced public trials, when you get to see at least reasonable results it becomes clear that being very open about it hurts your own interest. Keeping them to yourself, maybe investigate the matter further and then offering it commercially gives you a competitive edge against the competition for some time with all the reputational and monetary gains associated.

It would not surprise me if docs currently involved with trials eventually come to the same conclusion or that docs who never mentioned vp turn out to have ran "secret" trials. Not only would it not surprise me, I also wouldn't blame them. 

2 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Or maybe he is just busy and everything else is an overspeculation 🙂

Possible.

What do you (and others) think about the possibility that private trials are conducted by docs? I mean, for all individual actors, it would be the most logical choice. Why invest in an experiment that benefits everybody instead of an experiment that only you can reap the rewards of?

3 hours ago, sansi said:

You are complicating things. Of course he wouldn't do that, we just need to know the reasons of delays to stop speculating. What I can hope for is he would say things are positive or negative as he did before, and tell us date of his next update.

This presumes that his silence is unintentional en that he is just too busy, forgot about it, wants to release information later etc. Possible, but after 3 months, quite unlikely in my view.

I think 1 of 3 things is happening, in order of unlikeliness:

1. The results are underwhelming and he waits for more updates to release info in order not to damage the verteporfin-movement. My original theory, however, why would he care about the "movement"? He could just throw everything online with the caveat that vp might only work in FUE or that he did things wrong.

2. He ran into (legal) trouble with his experiment. Maybe a patient got sides that could be related to the application of vp and figured that it is best not to be public about it anymore.

3. He actually sees good results but understands that, if he is public about it, competitors with more resources, connections, reputation etc might come in and perfect the procedure. He would get a lot of credits but barely anything tangible. If he continues with his trials privately, he might come up with the right dosages, application methods etc. and have a competitive edge in his clinic or sell his knowledge to others.

Regarding the last point, if you do public experiments the time / money / energy / risk commitments are yours, but the eventual knowledge you gain will be available to everybody. With a private trial, the commitments are the same, but the upside is only yours.

Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me if doctors will come along who have done these trials in the last years and start offering hair transplants with vp and guarantee a certain percentage of regrowth.

8 hours ago, sansi said:

He released only one video after last update, other two were made by other doctors.

Asking won't hurt,if he doesn't share any results, at least we may know when to wait for an update.

Yes of course, people can ask him. But if we are realistic, how high do you think the chance is that he will say: "Oh yes, totally forgot about it, just got pictures back that confirm that verteporfin works great"?

1 hour ago, sansi said:

sorry to hear. Hope you will figure it out soon.
You did a lot already, but please ask for an update form Bloxham, only you have contact with him.

@Fox243 Sorry to hear that, but you seem like a capable person. I guess you will find something quickly.

@sansi I think that if dr. Bloxham wanted to communicate anything, he would already have done so. He released 3 "normal" videos recently, so it is not that he has no time to be busy with YouTube. 

7 hours ago, Hairlossingfast said:

If verteporfin is a success.  Will this mean norwood 7 can go to norwood 0?  What about ppl who are intolerant to 5ARI's and can't take them?  Would they benefit at all assuming they have the money to get a transplant every year?  Or would their hair fall out b4 full density can be achieved?

If verteporfin is a complete succes, then yes, you can have all the hair you want. 

It depends however on many variables that are unknown at the moment. It could turn out that verteporfin does nothing or at best yields a couple hundred extra grafts against a hefty price tag or anything else in between a complete success and a complete failure.

The most important thing right now is the start of the next trial of dr. Barghouthi and the first of dr. Mohebi. Hopefully they start pretty quickly, so we can  get a more measures take of what we can expect from vp.

4 hours ago, Fox243 said:

4 hours ago, Fox243 said:

Personally, after seeing his 3 month results, I was a bit disappointed, especially compared to Dr. Barghouthi's 3 month results, so I'm not expecting much. Not sure what went wrong, be it that it was an FUT or the procedure in some other way, but I'm more excited for Dr. Barghouthi's upcoming trial.

It could also be not promising and prevent people from trying it out.

In his last update, dr. Bloxham described his emotional state regarding the trial as a "rollercoaster" because he received some updates that were less than impressive. He comes across as very passionate about the research and such statements confirm his emotional involvement. 

The most likely scenario I see is that, unfortunately, the results fell flat and are no longer distinguishable from the controls. If so, one can imagine that he is disheartened and / or maybe doesn't want to hurt the verteporfin movement by publising his results right now.  

Of course, even if his results show no improvement with vp, being open about it is the best way forward. Even if vp+ FUT does not seem to work, he is still a hero of the community for trying it out and besides that, it does not negate the work of dr. Barghouthi that seems to show a clear effect of vp. 

I hope I am wrong and we wake up tomorrow with a vid in which dr. Bloxham showcases fantastic results, but I will temper my expectations.

2 minutes ago, Dragonsphere said:

It just seems redundant if we can regenerate hairs resistant to MPB. 

I would do it on an area of my beard, possibly the neck area in the corner and extract a small area completely. If hair regrew back in that area we could say with 100% certainty that Verteporfin works. Those grafts would then be planted into the area around my cheeks (the density in this region is poor). They could be extracted out a year later and we could see if they regenerate.  

Such an experiment would be extremely valuable. Fantastic that you are thinking in such a way.

25 minutes ago, Dragonsphere said:

Also ironically it could mean that HTs would be recommend earlier than later in life. Look at the donor area of 80 year old man with or without androgenic alopecia. People's hair naturally thins  later in life. I have seen elderly gentlemen without MPB hair loss but their density is probably 30% of what it was when they were in their teens. Taking advantage of the androgen resistance follicles at a younger age when density has peaked will result in a greater yield and less procedures. 

Respectfully I don't agree with testing it with micro needling for two reasons.

1. You would probably have to wound a lot deeper than with conventional micro needling and cover the entire area of your scalp. I don't think this is practical. 

2. Even if it works, you will be regenerating hairs that are prone to MPB and will keep have to this procedure in rounds in perpetuity. 

I do not see how you can be against any form of testing. Provided that an experiment is not done instead of a more fitting experiment. 

If it would be the case that microneedling + verteporfin does revive DHT-affected follicles, it completely depens on how quick they disappear again for how feasible it is. I know some guys that were nw7 at 18, so if you would revive their follicles, it would probably be a yearly occurrence to re-microneedle the area because their hair miniturizes so quickly. 

However, if your baldness started after 25, you're probably fine with needling once a decade or so. That's perfectly doable. 

So if somebody decides to test such an idea, I will thank them in the name of science

5 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Hi Melvin, could you mention this idea next time you speak to the HT conducting a trial. 

I don't believe anyone has yet to discuss the idea of how Verteporfin can be used to transplant and replant in the donor area with each round having a compounding effect until the donor area is fully restored. 

I am trying to temper my expectations but to me it already looks like a given that Verteporfin regenerated 30% minimum in this test subject. Now if it can regenerate hair that has already been transplanted, without even being hyperbolic, we could all become Brad Pitt with a few surgeries. 🧑‍🦱

Were equal amounts of grafts removed from both sides? I am sure the information is somewhere here. 

There is a reason science is not done through pictures. It really is important to wait for more trials and scientific hair counts to confirm such findings

4 hours ago, David149 said:

If this works:

Hair transplant company’s revenues 📈📈📈

Hair preventing company’s revenues 📉📉📉

I think you overestimate the impact. Most people are not this deep in hair restoration research. On HLT, there isn't even a thread about it. I asked some people, but they ignore the subject. On the Dutch hairloss forum, nobody knew about it. Some are intrigued but the large majority does not care.

We think that if verteporfin is proven to regenerate 50% of grafts and you can do it over and over again, that people will abondon finasteride in mass because you can just do HT's until eternity. I don't think that will happen to any significant degree. 

4 minutes ago, Melvin- Admin said:

Why is it wrong, he’s doing this out of his own free will. He doesn’t owe anyone anything. He’s a hair transplant surgeon first and foremost, his duties are with his patients that pay him for surgery.

Exactly, he will share his updates whenever he feels like it. Unless we pay people to conduct research, we simply have to accept that the docs who are so kind to voluntarily do the research set the timelines. 

Is there anything known about when dr. Mohebi starts his trial? That will be a big deal, as will dr. Barghouthi's second trial. 

1 hour ago, Fox243 said:

Because it’s his trial, I would rather wait till he feels comfortable sharing whatever he wants publicly. 
 

I have been getting lots of DMs about vert and it’s been a bit overwhelming so I am going to be off the site for a few weeks.

Maybe he has some days off near the holidays and plans to release his info then. He did create some expectations by stating that he would release new updates directly from month 4 on, but hey, maybe some unforeseen stuff happened that takes his attention right now.

You fully deserve some rest to recharge from this. I can understand it drains your reserves!

1 hour ago, Dragonsphere said:

The best case scenario would a 100% regeneration of the follicles. 😁

I agree that there appears to be regeneration in Dr Barghouthis trial. Visually it looks well over 50% of the follicles were regenerated. 

In regards to point two, I guess it depends on what the body remembers. As the follicle has been transplanted it may heal back to the state prior to the transplanted hair being there. However, as the follicle is there and as the body has not rejected it, it should, theoretically, regenerate with the follicle. 

The most frustrating thing in all of this is we are probably several years away from knowing its true potential. Dr Barghouthi's next trial will be completed in 1.5 year minimum and it still wouldn't answer this question. 

The thing is, I would be more than happy to be the human guinea pig and fund the procedure and medication myself. Is verteporfin that difficult to acquire?

See the below website for example. 

www.scientificlabs.co.uk

This is one of many websites that came up when searching online regarding purchasing it, granted it is in powder form.  

I think there a 2 scenario's of which only one has to be achieved that could lead verteporfin to be an essential cure for baldness. The first one is the regrowth rate. Let's say we find out that, generally, 30% of hair is regenerated. Why isn't it 100%? Do the 70% of grafts (or the skin under them) that do not regenerate have different qualities or attributes that make it verteporfin-resistant or does the treatment only provide the necessary conditions for 30% of the grafts to regenerate? If it is the latter, we can improve upon it. 

The other scenario is that you can use verteporfin on transplanted hairs as well and achieve the same regrowth. Even if it is just 30%, you can do it over and over again and at some point, you have all your hairs. So yeah, if you have already undergone transplants in an area where only transplanted hairs are present, it would be extremely valuable to transplant those hairs and scientifically measure regrowth. If we get the result we want, you will have written history

2 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Its seems to early to make a conclusion. We only have one FUE case to go on but the results looks promising. 
I could be wrong but I feel a lot of people on this forum, other forums and reddit are not understanding how Verteporfin could be used. 

Theoretically, if Verteporfin has regeneration rate of 30% and those results do not diminish upon multiple extractions then we could consider it to be a 'cure'

Lets say we have someone who has had several hair transplants in the past and has 2000 grafts left available. You remove them 600 regenerate then with another round, you around 200 left. 

This seems to be the general consensus on how we could you it.  

Why not just keep extracting them and replanting them into the donor area?

Each round you would regenerate more and more until you have fully filled in your donor area. 

You then transplant a sizeable amount to the bald areas and repeat the entire process. 

This means the only limiting factor would be your bank balance. 

For this to work we require two things 

1. That verteporfin does actually regenerate a significant amount of hair - I would say 30% plus. 

2. Verteporfin results do not diminish on previously transplanted hair. 

 

This is, apart from wounding + verteporfin reviving lost follicles, the best case scenario.

Lets say that at a given moment, there are 0 grafts in the recipient area (ra) and 5000 in the donor area (da).

Let's say you transfer 3000 from da to ra and 30% regenerates, that will mean 2900 grafts in the da and 3000 in the ra.

Then move 2000 back from ra to da, so the balance becomes 4900 in da and 1600 in ra.

Then move 3000 from ra to da, which means 2800 in da and 4600 in ra. 

Etc.etc.

It would take a lot of procedures and therefore money, and given that healing per session will take at last around a year, also quite a bit of time. But theoretically you could continue until you become the human version of the Yeti. 

How realistic are both assumptions?

1. We need more evidence than just the case of dr. Barghouthi. The photo's might be misleading, errors might have been made, maybe this person is 1 in 100 who hyperresponds etc. But purely judging on the photo's, I think that 30% regrowth is achieved here, so there might be a good chance that this criterium is achieved. The fact that the doc is not rushing to start the next trial can be inconvenient for some, but it does inspire confidence in his motives: if he would be looking for a quick buck in some way, he would probably do everything a lot quicker.

2. I don't even have remote knowledge on this topic to even speculate on this. Trials are the only way to figure this out. Are their others who have an educated guess?

2 hours ago, Fox243 said:

HairDAO is an organization that has raised around 3 million dollars and our goal is to cure hair loss. We’ve done a bunch so far such as create a new treatment (that we are putting through trials in the next 6 months), fund various hair related projects, etc. I’m one of the core members of HairDAO. Happy to answer any questions.

Putting a product through trials costs much more than 3M right?

Anyway, thanks for your work in this regard. Gotta ask, what is the reason to work on another treatment and not go all-in on verteporfin?

13 hours ago, takuma said:

I'm nervous as hell about his next update..the last update didn't show any significant regrowth on one of the patients. I don't understand what's going on , when Dr Bargouthi's trial has shown consistent progress and regrowth with each update on his patient. On the last update one of Dr Bloxham's patients didn't show any regrowth, and he even said himself it looks like a scar is forming on that patient in the verteporfin treated area but the other two  patients seem to have some regrowth so it's very confusing to me. We really need this to work... 

When several different modalities are tried in an experiment, they don´t all have to succeed. In fact, I would call it a success if I of the participants has great regrowth and skin healing and the rest see no difference. Then we can analyze what the factors are that make it a success and go from there.

Dr. Bloxham was a little bit slower with his 2 a 3 month updates because he was very busy. He though that he would be able to post the next results the moment he got them, but I guess unexpected things happened and he is delayed again. Too bad but at this point no cause for concern. 

I am very curious about his findings as well.

1 hour ago, hair_forever said:

??

Please translate Italian text into English.

How many days do you have to wait before being able to expose yourself to solar sources again?

How often should verteporfin be administered via micro-needling?