scar5

Is pressure going to be put on the forum owners by the current recommended doctors to dismiss potential recommendation of clinics doing fue were the technicians do the work under the supervision of a doctor at a 10th of their prices?

Perhaps, I doubt it

I am more inclined to believe membership/endorsement is seen as an advertising gimmick and that plain numbers of inquiries justify the fees, like advertising in a newspaper.

Docs have their private misgivings, but they vent them through other channels.

It would be cheap for a clinic or association of clinics, or even HTN, to hire a lawyer to establish whether or not technician extraction or incision is breaking existing laws in a particular territory, and yet they don't do it. Live and let live, let the good times roll, I would say.

First up, the only way this forum and other forums like it recommend any clinic is to the forum owners receive $$$$$$$ from the clinic.

Everything else is secondary.

That doesn't mean any one is recommended, of course, but no ideas or good proposals - and there are so many - will go anywhere if it cuts into the $$$$ the forum owners make, and I completely agree with them and wouldn't do it any other way myself. Bravo to HTN.

So would this idea cut into the potential income stream?

That HTN could recommend clinics on the basis that they would prominently display a few key parameters such as;

Tools and Techniques employed.

Degree of doctor involvement in procedure.

Technician responsibilities and credentials.

??

Of course it would. Clinics don't like doing that if they don't have to, and for good reason. Major disincentive to join and sign up on the HTN payroll.

My choice would be that clinics are not recommended at all, and that HTN is sponsored by garden tools or something unrelated except in the demographic of balding men. Perhaps technology, our cookies and the way Google spies on us and sells our info could make it happen like that one day. But for now, we gotta deal with it the best way we can, by playing cat and mouse, risking your reputation by 'telling on' clinics in a thread like this.

Of course, I'd love to see some kind of classification for clinics which told us all about their protocols. I was absolutely stunned when I was told at a leading clinic techs would be extracting FUE outta my head in 2012.

The hair grew fairly well. The design, which the doc DID do, isn't all that great.

I think techs should be able to do extractions but only if we, as punters already rolling the dice anyway, are made aware of it and the credentials of the tech. But that 'aint gonna happen.

I don't do online dating but I am very interested in it and its connection to how hair and hairstyle relates to scoring views and how people profile themselves in accordance to their perceived attractiveness etc.

When I buzz my hair off, I look terrible in straight on mug shots and I am certain that I would get more hits/views when I grow out my hair. On the other hand, I like the feel of a buzzed head and often seem to feel better in it, even if I don't look better.

So there's the bind, look good for a mug shot, get the attractiveness factor up, get the 'views' and roll with the confidence that brings or screw all that and just look average and hope that you do better 'on the inside' and be eternally and internally optimistic rather than outwardly, if superficially confident. In a world based on social media and profile pics, selfies and short concentration spans I guess it is a no brainer and i suppose it is no co-incidence that buzzed heads are no longer fashionable, at least for white and asian guys in the facebook/internet dating era.

It has been around for a while and has come up before. A lot of people don't realize that it has been optimized for stimulating hair growth in the pubic region and not for scalp hair, so unless you have had BHT from these regions it probably won't help that much for 'coverage'. That said, it is quite possible it could cause scalp hair to curl for this reason, and that can help with the illusion of density.

I believe natural SMP hairlines are the one thing that.. SMP businesses have mastered.

 

You just have to find a clinic that knows what they are doing.

 

....From my observations, (personal viewings) men who have had HT's and then have SMP tend to have results that look a bit blueish and slightly blurred dots that are not as defined.

 

 

Well, if they have mastered it, why do we have to find one that knows what they are doing? And how do we find them?

OK...I am being pedantic.

I do not get it. How can an HT have any effect on blueishness? I think that HTs are what makes SMP worthwhile and that hairless SMP is a recipe for trouble, especially as SMP becomes public as time goes by...and it will!

I accept that scarred tissue does not accept ink as predictably as virgin skin however. That said, SMP can definitely help strip scars and barren areas blend in.

 

Many of the surgeons practicing FUE didn't formally train in the technique during residency..

FUE is also a 'blind' technique,

 

Punch grafts of the 90s were replaced by strips of the 2000s:

 

1) There has been a 'dilution' of FUE surgery raises concern for a relative increase in subpar FUE result. you can always go forward with surgery, you can never go back.

At what stage in your research did you become aware that FUE was a blind surgery? How much study did iy take?

What is a strip residency?

For your research, I had strip in 1988, the same year FUE started. FUE was cockblocked by stateside in the states, and the originator developed a rqther caustic attitude, furtyer styming its progress.

HT industry doesnt and hasnt relied on research of a this kind.You sugges that FUE is moving without research...well, the entire strip industry did it too. Business and balls drove the industry forward, not research. Strip was everybit as cavalier as FUE.. remember, it is he sqme guys.. residencies and research rank very low-y on the HT world..its not rocket science, a very simple procedure.. that one can improve at, but never faster or beyond wha tje economic circimstances dictate, and they are very much based on momentum and opportunism, not science.

My Dad, who is NW7, asked the local physician for 'a name' of an HT doc during a routine check-up. The doc joked, "Aren't you leaving it a bit late?" To which my Dad said, 'No, it is for my 19 year old son"

I saw the doc, who told me i was too young.

Five years later, having progressed to NW3, I asked a buddy of mine, whose father was a radiologist to suggest a name. Two weeks later, the same HT doc name came back to me. So in I went, and this time the doc said, 'Yep, you've waited long enough" 26 years ago.

Had the internet been around, would I have done any better? Probably not. The guy was a well respected strip doctor with a staff of one who answered the phones, kept the books, and when I woke up from my valium slumbers mid-session there she was, putting in the grafts while the doc was talking to the next lucky guy.

I started to do HT research on the internet around 2001-2 and I made several big mistakes thereafter, as well as some good choices that have got me to where I am today, which isn't bad considering. 'Cept that life has passed me by in the meantime.

I think personality precludes me from making objective choices based on a forum environment where all kinds of agendas get mixed into the wash, especially in the repair game, when it is not only your HT that needs fixing, your whole mental make-up has taken a screwing.

Still overall, so much info out there, and if you stick around long enough, a fair percentage of people must be wiser for it.

I don't share pics anymore, I used to....but got burned.... My photo even ended up on a facebook page of a clinic I never went to..

ha...SMP is a nice industry like that. They do their best to respect your privacy. Afterall, wouldn't you, in their position? We desperate guys are trying to trick the world too, right?

SMP has helped me, it's pretty good if you are already scared and pretty much f&&$#d from strip scars, but don't trust them to create a nautral hairline. They pretty much haven't sorted that yet. Get some HT hair up front first.

It is hard to say who is good at SMP circa 2014. Big chains have novices and experts. Experts get lazy, or leave and start their own shop, and then they can get cheap all over again.

Muso,

What is your take on why Aussie is so bad at HT, or rather, why they haven't moved forward compared to other countries?

I'm guessing it's a lack of demand there but there must be something else too.

1) Aussie's aren't adverse to travel?

2) Aussies think that beauty and cosmetic stuff are not something homegrown?

3) Aussie men are the world's biggest head shavers and male vanity is punished more?

4) Aussie docs make too much of a good living doing other stuff?

I Dr Saifi... has warned that the scar may be visible

 

I am keen to keep the option of shaving my head in the future

Don't do strip.

Doctor S is being optimistic ...delete.."may be visible?"..insert ...."will be visible"

Strip...FUT stands for.

Forget forever about doing a

U

Turn

there is no going back with strip, no line of retreat.

What about Turkey for FUE?

 

I first approached His Hair in April 2014. I was looking for a sharp, dark , defined look( keep this in mind for later in the story).

 

We agreed on a second treatment. Greg did a good job on the first and I was very excited.

 

Greg said we could go darker.

 

After the treatment, I noticed it was "too dark" and did not look natural. You would expect the " expert" to advise the client and make recommendations.

 

Greg mentioned it would settle in and I should be patent.

 

After two days, my sister told me it looked like someone put mascara on my head.

 

I called the corporate office of His Hair in London to lodge a complaint to say something must be done about this "botched job."

 

In two weeks’ time I went back, this time Matt worked on my head and did a great job.

 

After three weeks , I decided a needed " sharper lines and a more defined look."

 

A few folks asked if my hairlines were a tattoo.

 

They said I should consider a laser removal of the hair line and wait 10 days and redo hair line.

 

I then go to Matt. He advised I do NOT need laser removal. I am now getting compliments and finally feel happy.

.

I think your story is very important, especially in the emotional topsy-turvy world of SMP. Unlike HTs, which need time to mature, we expect instant success with SMP, and yet you do need to wait a month for things to fade a bit.

I feel for you and the ride you have been on. I've been there too. But I must say, you, as I have been, must have been a difficult client to begin with.

First, you wanted it sharp and dark.

HIS start conservatively so no surprise you just wanted more, more

You have to remember that in a big place like HIS, these guys are doing multiple patients and they can't afford to spend time worrying about their clients. They look at their list for today and say, 'Oh, ok, that guy, I think I remember what he wanted...let's see what he has to say today"

Each time you go back, I think you have to be very careful about how you tell the story, because if you ask them to do something, you are making it easier for them and it is very tempting for them to do it.

So you got dark and defined, and hated it. Of course you would. Real shame about that.

Perhaps it was so bad you couldn't afford to wait out the month. I know the feeling.

I've heard of guys demanding laser the very same day they get the ink!

So you go to Matt, and you got fixed and re-assured, and yet again, you wanted dark ..again!

Understandable, but this kind of see-sawing could be a recipe for disaster. Hopefully, Matts work will be good. Laser has helped me immensely in breaking up a solid line. Even just 5mm by 5mm shots can do wonders, especially with a bit of hair.

Good luck mate. Hope this sees you on your way to a better place.

Balding is ugly and a negative portent of things to come. Blaming women for being shallow is not going to help restore the balance. Fat girls know all about the rejection story.

But I've seen bald white guys make a killing - only when they are the masters of men around them, and I guess that takes wits and dash of intimidation - be it of the friendly passive kind, or the aggressive macho type. Horrible scenario which ever way you look at it. Perhaps the challenge of baldness tightens our focus and steels our resolve for a better purpose. Perhaps that will be enough??

If we want carpet analogies then your head is like an old carpet that has come loose

 

 

You can trim the carpet and pull it tight again, does it make the carpet thinner in appearance? Of course not.

 

.

Oh..but it does Garage, and it doesn't matter if you watched Groundhog day a hundred times or not In fact, if you took the Groundhog day film, cut 20 minutes out of the middle of it, them made it last for the same amount of time (and unless your skull shrinks you will have to) then you will have to stretch that sucker. Simple as that. Less hair, same skull size.

But anyway, I think strip gives you more bouncy hair, less transection and therefore a thicker a transplant. But if i were 25, and losing my hair, I wouldn't want the scar. That's all. The pain, discomfort and constant second-guessing about stretching, either post-first op, or subsequently when you go for more ops (and you usually have to) is just another worry.

And the pic of carpet looks like a blood hound.

I suspect what the doctors think about the matter, what the doctors do about the matter, and what they say to their patients about the matter are often quite different things. I'm not trying to say docs are duplicitous or manipulative creatures - their integrity is something I cannot judge, and I am in no position to quibble with it in the normal day-to-day stuff.

But think about this.

A manual FUE doc performing exclusively FUE might pull out 4000-5000 grafts a week, which pretty much means a million grafts over ten years. What sort of state would you expect the ligaments/tendons (whatever - go ask a doc) in his fingers and wrists to be in?

Also, you have to expect that they watch each other - that they know what the 'other guys' do, and that there is a good deal of respect, despite the rivalry, between medicos for a start, and a certain amount of respect among clinic proprietors, if only because they are competing in the same market, with the same traps and tribulations etc. - who knows, the same accountants, the same off-shore accounts?

I've paid for certain docs on the basis of their skills, as I could see them. Fifteen minutes later, the very same docs have told me that so-and-so technicians will perform 'x' or 'y' on me because, 'Frankly, they're better than me!' Wow, how ironic.

The machines will probably become more prominent, but there are some fuzzy legal areas re. techs performing extractions. Remember only a doc is allowed to break the skin? (Go tell the ear piercer down the mall that, or your local tattoo dude!)

I felt unquestionably weaker and more fallible immediately after I got an HT in 1988, but when the hair grew out I looked pretty good. The strip scar did not become an issue for fully ten years, when further hairloss and examples of men who proudly shaved their heads starting walking by (and over) me. Then the strip scar became the focus of my anger and failing and a beacon to the bully and the bullied. I couldn't get over it. I tried shaving if all off anyway, and at times felt some jubilation, but soon enough, I'd have to grow it out again and cover up, each time, weaker for it. My efforts to revise the scars, plant into them, tattoo them, shave them again, grow out again, all took a toll on me and the people around me.

Perhaps I could have gotten over losing my hair, but it was harder to get over an HT and the strip scar became the object of my anger and something larger and more of a menace than a mere scar.

I know I lived happily for ten years with it and unhappily for another 16. Yes, strip gave me hair, enough to tease up and look decent, but the scar is definitely something slightly bothersome, to say the least.

Every one of the surgeons' comments have valid and legitimate points and can only be realized from them actually performing both techniques.

Agreed.

And none of them count for diddly squat when you stare in front of the mirror years later with an ear-to-ear strip scar, a bottle of minoxidil and and empty crown.

Joe is a champ. Don't hold ur breath.

The Australian Hair Transplantation Industry is certainly not up to par with overseas physicians at this stage, e

Muso posted this back in 2010/1? and it makes me wonder, why is (was) it so?

In the late 80's, Australia had world leading surgeons in Sydney and Melbourne, including the founder of FUE/BHT and what some considered the most knowledgeable strip surgeon in the world in Melbourne.

Since that time the Australian economy has pretty much boomed, a record number of quarters/years of continuous growth (even through the '07 crisis) so there has been plenty of disposable income.

And yet it's HT industry is now pretty much a backwater.

Wonder why?

Not since Constantine the Great's conversion has the holy world shook.

Clinics and practitioners live in a world of brutal economic reality, and that is the news.

Meh..y'all just talking about impressions and subjective stuff.

Stick to the facts, and be logical.

4000 FUE grafts diminish your donor no more than 4000 strip - that we can say for sure, so no more of that nonsense about strip 'preserving' your donor.

i am absolutely sure FUE transection is larger than quoted - but I am also sure it is in the extracted follicles - much less so the peripheral stuff.

I mentioned the FACT that telegon hair is binned during strip, and that incision transection is also a factor - both of these losses come free with your strip transplant, but still you want to fudge the facts.

But even so, regardless of our banter, more and more people will choose FUE with every passing day and for good reason.

This thread had debunked another erroneous strip fable - that FUE depletes your donor more than strip.

Another one bites the dust.

The key point is that FUE and strip are no different. 5000 grafts will deplete the stock of hair in the donor region to the same degree regardless of whether it is strip or FUE. No difference. No convincing needed.

And one of those myths that gets peddled around by strip pundits.

But there are a number of reasons as to why the remaining hair might look better on a strip patient and as well as a few minor ones as to why it could be worse.

Strip looks better because

FUE extraction patterns are manmade and hence not perfect. Economics dictates it. They simply do not have the time/skill to do it manually without thinning out a few zones too much or too little. The robot may do it better.

The borders of the extraction zone for FUE can be abrupt and the change in tone apparent for the extracted zone vs the untouched areas

The natural fall of the hair, the way it sits /lies might be better, and certainly more even, when the neighboring hairs remain neighboring hairs even if they are further apart.

Pigmentation from the FUE scars could make the underlying skin tones pop out more making the hair look thinner.

Strip looks worse - apart from scar itself- because (and they are IMO minor problems)

Buckles, valleys in the skin change the way the hair sits

Changes in the plane of the skin viz-a-viz matching the angle of exit for hair above and below the line of excision may mean that the flow of the hair is changed

Trico closure causes some wierd misangled spikey hair.

In any case, a thinned out donor is a GOOD thing for a baldy. Less contrast to the weak areas

Could you please post a case where a scalp looked visibly less dense after a strip?

It happened in your case Bismark, it happened in Matt's case, my case, Jotronic's case - it happens in all cases. Visibly less dense, no idea, I don't care, but less dense, absolutely and you can calculate exactly how much if you do the maths

You simply now have less hair, but your skull is still the same size.

re calculation- a bit of approximation for lost telegon and excision line peripheral loss (but that is another story) would be needed if you really wanted to be technical.

I'm just making a point guys. It is so simple, what is wrong with you??

If you are saying, "Well, it doesn't matter anyway" , that is fine by me, no problem at all. But the fact remains.

The only reason I am making this point, is to dispel another one of those assumptions that get somehow get mixed in with the smoke and haze that roll out out of the clinic rep's mouth and settled into the brain of the strip customer.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it too much, but for the sake of a better forum, better discussion, and the plain truth, the wrong assumptions should be weeded out.

That's one of the wackier suggestions I ever read on this forum in the last 4 years! What you're saying is that the scalp is highly elastic, analogous to say a balloon (imagine marking felt tip dots on a balloon and then inflating it - the dots spread out just as the hairs would spread out).

If everyone was that elastic then no one would ever have to worry about a stretched scar.

.

Not a suggestion. It is a fact.

Nothing to do with high elasticity.

Simply,

Surface area of the scalp

Number of follicles remaining left to cover that area

You always need a high density donor for FUE to compensate for the reduction in density and inevitable transection of hairs during the extraction process. .

How so? Who told you/sold you this story?

Think about what u r saying here. If you remove 3000 grafts u have three thousand less grafts to cover the same surface area. Same for either procedure. When u close the strip u stretch the scalp and hence thin out the remaining skin over the same head. Just plain maths.

It should be a concern when we fall for these little fables.

Beehner published data showing about a 30% loss of yield with FUE vs strip. Because they were actually counting follicles and not looking at cherry picked cases on a computer screen, I would trust this more than pictures or videos.

 

I can assure you that they are real surgeons. I would put the complexity of their procedures as second only to neurosurgery, and certainly leagues beyond general surgeons.

 

But I really believe we're wasting time on this argument -- it's one that likely will not have a verifiable answer for several decades.

First Bit

Less yield with FUE, well intuitively that makes sense.

Second Bit

Oh dear, I could be wrong..again, but here I go. This is what I've assumed for a very long time...

Most HT 'surgeons', if not all, would not specialist surgeons of the kind that is referred to, when we use the term 'surgeon' in common parlance. 'Physician' , yes, 'surgeon' no. Now what is a 'Plastic Surgeon'? Specialist. Yes. Required to be a member of a professional accredited organization , yes.

Do we call them 'surgeons'. I suppose so. Are some of them performing hair transplants? Yes, I don't doubt some do.

So am I wrong about HT surgeons not being surgeons. Technically yes, because on that score I agree.

But I still assume most HT surgeons are not surgeons that have specialized in surgery in their initial training. I may be wrong and stand corrected.

Any registered doc can open the and close the skin, can they not?

I think comparing transplant surgery to neurosurgery is ridiculous. This does not demean docs performing HT or suggest that all docs are the same, or that some extremely technically challenging situations do not arise that require ingenuity and judgment that exist in galaxies far away from me and my cup of cold tea.

But I remember the great Dr. Feller telling the story once. Now you can look that up. He said HT is not a difficult task viz-a-viz the various kinds of other surgery. Yes, I said the word, surgery, I know.

Third Bit

Wasting time. It is just the same old strip vs FUE rubbish..etc..

Let me tell you this. These discussions usually close on that note, with some guy who recently got a strip telling us that it is 'case-by-case' and that both strip and FUE have a place. And that there is no need to debate, and personally they are tired of it. What is overlooked is that the earth is moving and each one of these so called time-wasters has moved consumer sentiment in a direction towards FUE being more in demand. Remember, even five years ago, these discussions were just the same, but at that stage, strip was still king