stephcurry30

Looking good and on track. Ugly duckling phases suck and I am about to start mine. Glad you're almost through with it. 

Curious to see how the grafts being placed in rows and columns effects the native hair in the norwood 3/middle tuft section.  Do you have any pre op photos of your hairline close up? I want to see the native hair.

Looking good and on track. Almost through the ugly duckling phase. How long did it take for the redness to stop/get rid of?

Also my posts are meant to be a conversation starter. if patients are paying top dollar for their surgeries they should get the attention to detail that they deserve.

4 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Poor angles or not, people with finer hair are always going to get a less stellar result compared to someone with thicker hair. 

Completely agree. And I did not say that at all.  If you have a hair caliber of double the hair of another patient you don't need to implant as many grafts in the thicker's hair patient because the hair will cover double the amount of scalp per square cm then the patient with finer hair.

That being said, in order to create the illusion of density the patient's hair still needs to be placed as a low angulation so it sits on the scalp and covers more surface area. This is what creates the illusion of density. And a reason as to why Turkey is known for being hair mills is because of how unnatural their results are. Why are they unnatural? Angulation and surgical planning are COMPLETELY off.

This is especially true of higher norwood (4 through 6) where they are fighting a mathematical problem that is that they don't have enough hair from the donor to implant and reach the native hair density before they started balding. SO how do you fix this problem? Illusion of density. Angulation of grafts, direction, and carefully placing them between existing grafts. 

HT are a math problem (number of grafts available vs number of grafts required for a specific Norwood scale/patient) and and then art in terms of having the most experienced doctor be able to place the grafts in specific directions and angulations to create the most desirable result that creates the illusion of density.

This is why so many people pay top dollar to top doctors to get their experience and art and hairline/surgical planning. If he just wanted to move grafts from one place to another he could of went to turkey but he obviously didn't based on his initial summary and research. 

Also looking at the pre and post op photos it seems like OP''s bald spot in his crown got larger. Probably due to 2 reasons:

1.) continued hair loss without being on medication (which it seems like OP has been on medication and he said his hair loss stabilized for 2 years before surgery

or

2.)  Existing hairs/transplanted hairs got transected or were lost due to low blood circulation for being placed way to close to one another. This is why I am in fact against placing grafts in rows and columns instead of placing them between existing hairs. 

I know Wong responded here about placing grafts in rows and columns in thee following thread below, BUT he did not mention placing grafts grafts in rows and columns in between existing hairs. If anything you SHOULDN'T be placing grafts in rows and columns between existing hairs but rather between them. Again something that has been discussed on this forum and at all my consultations with surgeons. 

This is going to look like a stellar result. Very similar to my balding and hair transplant I had with Konior. Just had mine 2 weeks ago. Happy growing. I'm sure this is a top tier result. 

5 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

I hesitate to say this, but something I've noticed on this forum is that people tend to "err on the side of optimism" when it comes to stuff like this. If people say you have an above average donor, that likely means you have an average donor. If people say you have an average donor, that likely means you have a sub-average donor. "Donor" of course doesn't just mean the amount of grafts available, it also means the caliber of the grafts, # of hairs per graft, ect 

This isn't to imply you did anything wrong. This doesn't mean you aren't a candidate for HT. But I do worry that this forum sometimes creates a false hope for people when it should be a bit more discerning. 

That isn't to say HW did everything right. I'm not smart enough on HT's to really get into the fine details the way some are. But to be honest I don't think the people who told you you have an above average or fantastic donor are correct at all. 

I personally don't think donor ahs anything to do with the result. With future potential procedures sure. But with the result? heck no. The post op photos of OP's donor look like what a donor after 4k grafts extracted form should look like. If he did have any issues with his donor then why would h7W even operate on him? I asked my surgeon to examine my scalp and crown area for miniaturization before my surgery as well. 

Patients with finer hair need grafts to placed at correct angles, direction, etc. to get the illusion of density. This did not occur here. with 4k =grafts OP should of gotten a lot better result. 

OP if you could make a 1 X 1 squared CM box and take a photo of it on your receipt area you can calculate the density of your hairline/frontal 3rd. If it's anywhere between 40-50 grafts/cm^2 that means that number of grafts that grew and were probably designed for were correct it's just that the angulation of all the hairline grafts are completely wrong. I attached a snippet from Shapiro's hair transplantation book of what correct angulation should look like. 

If my assumptions are correct. if OP's angulation was just placed a bit different his hairline wouldn't have the see through effect that it has now. I don't think yield/Density is as import here as much as angulation is. Again this was stressed by multiple TOP surgeons that I have consulted with. 

Also hair standing up at 90 degrees rom the scale or even at 70 degrees is not natural you don't see that on a virgin/non balding scalp. 

The bigger issue here is the surgical planning, design, angulation, direction, and graft placement. 

7 minutes ago, Tiger2050 said:

Not defending Dr. Hasson but it’s impossible to see the angle of grafts from one pic that shows blurry red dots.

Completely agree. Which is why I asked to see another more recent photo. But judging based on how the grafts were placed at the hairline, these grafts were also probably placed a similar way. 90 degrees from the scalp. Even the grafts at the hairline should be at MAX 35-45 degrees from the scalp. I have had this discussion and confirmation with numerous top surgeons during all my consultations. 

OP can you provide a more recent photo of your crown? I want to make sure my analysis is somewhat accurate.  

I also should of PREFACED saying that these are just my opinions and just posting this to give OP some sense of direction and opinion from somewhat else. I am not an expert and don't claim to be one, I am just putting my thoughts and knowledge out there to start a discussion on the surgical planning because I personally think there could of been better and if it was better would Op be more satisficed with the result?

Going forward OP I would honestly have ion person consultations with other surgeons. Seems like you're locate in canada? Go to Rahal and get his opinion. Maybe on your next vacation plan a trip to Chicago and stop by Konior/Nadimi or Panine's clinics and get an honest in person evaluation. Maybe you and your family/friend want to travel to Turkey. Go to some of the top recommended clinics listed on here while having fun and traveling. I know OP mentioned he has the resources of a 23 year old but I'm hoping he can at least make a few trips to a few clinics to get different opinions. 

If there is one person I would highly advise OP to see would be Shapiro. He is one of the top doctors in the world and located pretty close to Canada (In Minnesota) He has written numerous publications and is one of if not the most knowledgeable doctor's out there. 

There is no quick fix to this. Come prepared to these consults with all the photos in the thread. Ask the other clinics about the surgical design, grafts left, donor density. etc. You need to make a calculated decision/risk going forward. And we will be here to help you give additional advise and direction but AGAIN we are not professionals. Seek multiple opinions form multiple doctors and ask them about these things I touched upon:

Angulation of grafts, illusion of density, planting in rows and columns within native hair, direction of hair. BE extremely detailed. 

I know I already got a warning from Melvin regarding critiquing the surgical planning from another patient/thread of H&W but this time it's different. This is closer to the final outcome and OP is searching for answers and lost as to why his result are so bad. We need to give him all the information possible to make a decision. I myself know I would want the truth (this is the truth from my years of watching HT videos and researching the design). 

My responses are 100% honest and do not lash out personally at H&W I am just looking at the photos that the clinic/patient themselves have placed in the thread and analyzing it and critiquing it. 

I considered myself a perfectionist and even before my surgery with Dr. Konior we discussed for an hour plus about importance of angulation, direction, illusion of density, etc. And look at the post OP photos this doesn't look like it met the standards that H&W have placed on themselves as a top clinic. OP is right he could of gone to another clinic and got a similar result for a fraction of the cost. 

There is a reason why people pay top dollar and it's to get the most natural result with highest success rate. It doesn't seem like this is what happened here. If clinics are paring amounts similar to a brand new car patients should at least have top tier surgical planning with correct angulation, direction, and design/planning. 

On 9/8/2023 at 11:42 PM, mister_25 said:

I don't think I would get a FUT or a procedure from Dr Wong. 

I was told originally that I have enough donor supply where FUE is more than enough, If I had to have FUE and FUT Scars and still face the prospect/possibility of poor yield, I would be deeply unhappy. 

As for Dr Wong. I am not a fan of the rows as many people have brought up, mainly because I wanted the possibility of having a shaved head in the future without things looking unnatural or being a standout feature. Also there was a recent case of a pretty horrible FUT Scar from Dr Wong that shakes my confidence in this option.

Completely agree here. I wouldn't advice going to Wong as well solely based on the fact that you've stated that shaving your head might be the way to go if your HT's are failures. And Wong places his grafts in rows and columns. Would stick out like a sore thumb if you ended up buzzing or shaving your head. 

On 9/8/2023 at 5:01 AM, mister_25 said:

I did not say they are giving a refund, but a refund is on table if the areas do not have growth. Here is what they said word for word.

"Dr. Hasson stands behind his work so if after a year there is an area that has not regrown he would either replace those grafts for free or refund your money for those grafts."

The thing is, I did my research obsessively and followed specifically Melvin's and Gatsby's cases and advice to avoid the same pitfalls they had so that I can have my hair when I was young like I am now. However, it doesn't matter how much research I put in or if I did everything right because I still fell in those exact same pitfalls regardless.

It was implied by Doug from H&W in a previous email that a person of my retrograde alopecia severity probably/is estimated to have a total of 5500-6500 Grafts in their donor. Which would mean that my donor reserves equal out about 1628 at its lowest, to 2628 at its highest. Which is either half of the amount that Doug said I would need to restore my hair following this outcome, or mildly less than the requirement to restore my hair following this outcome. I believe that I probably have enough donor to meet my original expectations, but the issue arises on how well the yield will go the second time around.

When everyone tells me "I did nothing wrong and nobody can fault me or my methods" its puts me in a loop because it makes me feel like any other follow up choice I am going to make will merit the same results, which I am destined to be unhappy with.

Another thing that wasn't stated is not only can they not refund me the "emotion, time and energy" that I had to go through but they can't refund the potential grafts that were burned through the procedure, which equates to the final long term result for both your donor preservation and your hair on your head. that's is what is really bothering me.

I really don't want to come across as someone begging for pity, But I do want to show that for just as much as a good result can change your life for the better with restored confidence, a result your unhappy with has the opposite effect and makes you have doubt in yourself and reinforces the insecurity to some degree. 

OP This is complete BS. Looking at the placement of grafts of your post op, the clinic 100% made mistakes in graft angulation and graft placement. If you take a look at the photo below. The crown area circled in blue shows grafts being placed in rows and not around native hair. There are CLEARLY visible bald spots where grafts should of been placed but weren't. And then here are more dense areas (right side of the blue circle) where it seems like too many grafts were placed with the native hair. If you also take a look at the before photos of OP the biggest bald spot in the crown was the center not the outsides. So why were more grafts placed on the out skits than the center? 

The other issue is the angulation. I recently had an operation with Dr. Konior and one thing that we talked about was angulation and why it's so important (via email and in person (twice) for about an hour each time). A friend of mine had a transplant in turkey and when he came back it looked so UNNATURAL. Why? Angulation. During our post op consultation Dr Konior legitimately said something along the lines of "angulation is extremely important and has a huge impact on the illusion of density." If a patient has a large balding spot the grafts need to be placed closer to 15 to 35% from the scalp to give the illusion of a full head of hair. The reason for this is because the grafts will then lay down on the scalp and cover your scalp. This is what SKILLED surgeons are supposed to do when there is a patient with a high Norwood scale. If grafts aren't placed within these angles and they are placed perpendicular to the scalp you can NEVER have the illusion of density and this is what also cause the see through effect. If you take a look at the hairline sots you can CLEARLY see grafts sticking straight up in the air which allows people to see more of the scalp and gives the see through effect. This is CONCLUSIVE of a poor surgical result and planning by H&W. Paying top dollar for this is blasphemy. OP should 100% be refunded his money solely based on the fact that a) a large number of grafts were burned and b) surgical planning was awful. Angulation is off, graft placement is off (not placed in correct locations), planed in rows, etc. 

Blaming a patient for a poor result should be the last option if they did something wrong in the post op but if you look at the top of the list and ask why a result was poor. The first thing you need to note is the design, surgical planning, and angulation. And looking at the post op photos plenty of mistakes were made. 

"Another thing that wasn't stated is not only can they not refund me the "emotion, time and energy" that I had to go through but they can't refund the potential grafts that were burned through the procedure, which equates to the final long term result for both your donor preservation and your hair on your head. that's is what is really bothering me."

18 minutes ago, JohnnySins said:

Well, I've finally hit the 1-month mark. The shed has been insane, I'm kind of freaking out a bit, since I am well below baseline. I definitely have lost native hair along with all my transplanted hair. I've never seen my scalp like this before, I would assume this is due to shock loss. The scar area looks way better than I thought for the 1-month mark. I'm really trusting the process of this and hoping for the best.🤞

 

Praying for you that it's just shock loss as well! You are two weeks ahead of me in terms of our hair transplant timeline and I am horrified of the shed phase. WILL be brutal but we'll be in this together. 

Today is day 10 and my hair looks the same exact more grown out and all the scans gone. 
 

I am still sleeping on my back until the 14th day when all grafts are going to be 100% locked in place and then goin go to try to mentally prepare for the dreaded shedding phase! 

Day 7 was a few days ago! I met with Dr. Konior! He gave me the final graft count and looked at my hair! There were scabs present and this was the day I was given the go ahead to start gentle scrubbing and gently removing all the scabs! 
 

after this day I removed all scabs and none can be seen going forward! 

24 minutes ago, NK1 said:

Dr. K is still as awesome in my book as always! I revere him and am grateful that he took on my case. 

 

I am a scientist and data is my thing. Yes this could be all in my head. In any case, I want to clearly re-state that whether I like the final result or not, I approved the design and surgery. No one rushed me or forced me into it.

 

I will be patient and come back here in 6-8 months and report if this was all in my head or something else.

 

Take care everyone. Signing off to go focus on growing my hair! 😁

 

Sounds good. Posting a photo of your hairline might be a good idea but if you're not comfortable with it just ignore your concerns you will get a fantastic result I'm sure. 

30 minutes ago, NK1 said:

He did show me the photo on his camera. It was frontal view with a line overlay showing the straightness of the frontal design. That was super-helpful! He did not show me any side or profile view photos on his camera and it did not occur to me to ask him. In retrospect, that was a mistake. Getting photos now will not fix it. I am 15 days out and have taken many photos and analyzed the design and geometry. My left and right temporal peaks (side view) are asymmetric. I also compared them to the desired marked photos I sent and left side is quite off from that. I had even printed my top-5 issues/goals with pictures on a slide and gave a copy to the nurse as I walked into the surgery room.  In any case, what is done is done. I failed to carefully check the final design in the stress of the moment. I am definitely sad to have spent so much time and money, and know that I have to go through another small procedure in the future to fix it. 

 

I hope your design and outcome is fantastic. Looks like you are pleased with everything so far. Congrats!

I think you should post the photos that you took blocking out your face so we can see the hairline design. The hairline is MEANT to be a symmetric. If you look at plastic surgery having perfect symmetry is a NOT natural and every hairline is never symmetric. The image below shows how weird your face would look if it was completely symmetric. You would look weird and awkward. 

Post the photos of your hairline and we can help you and give you might insight. It's so difficult speaking to you on this issue with having no images. 

The other thing to note is that Dr. Konior has 25+ years of experience in this industry and has put out great results for years. There is a reason why you paid a steep price for him because he is good at what he does. It seems like you have 9 posts on this forum and it's difficult to gauge your knowledge and experience at hair restoration but I would be shocked if it was even a quarter of your doctor's knowledge. There is a reason why he's recommended on this board. 

That being said there are 2 things you can do:

1.) Go back to your surgeon/clinic in 1 year and discuss in detail the design and your concerns and gain insight as to why your doctor designed your temples/hairline a specific way. 

2.) Post photos of your post op hairline so the community can alleviate your concerns and give you some advice on you current situation. 

If I had to take a stab in the dark it would be that you are having 2nd regrets about the hairline that are unrealistic due to social media/perceived perception of perfect. Remember that hair restoration is meant to be natural and you went to one of the best doctors in NA. It's not worth worrying about this currently without getting proper insight from your doctor/clinic and/or community. 

Feel free to do what you are most comfortable next but I'm fairly certain you are over thinking everything concerned over nothing. Let us help you. 

edit:

Look how awkward and weird the most beautiful girl in the world would look like if her face was symmetric. Your face is meant to be ASSYMETRIC. Including the hairline. If you look at every top tier result on this forum every hairline is NOT symmetric. 

Just trying to help you out OP! Stop worrying about something that probably isn't even an issue. 

37 minutes ago, FUT4000 said:

Is it something you inquire, or do they usually just send you something after surgery? I’m going to inquire anyway. 

I think you should inquire about it. Different clinics and doctors do things differently. But a medical report of surgery ahs to bee documented and released to the patient if requested. 

6 hours ago, FUT4000 said:

I Recently had my surgery with Nadimi, does she end up sending you photos and the graft breakdown or is this something you asked for?

Every doctor/clinic should send you or give you a medical report of the surgery! 

4 hours ago, skyler said:

 

2wk mark. loving the temples so much

How are you plans for going to go back into the office? Why did you not elect to shave your entire head? Just curious! Looks like great work!

4 minutes ago, NewHare said:

Please clarify something for me. It appears from what I've read that the procedure used with @Clarkhas been Dr Vories' method of transplantation prior to his making changes.  If so, and if the criteria for membership is grafting with refined singles in the frontal hairline how then was he first vetted to become a member ?  Has something changed in the interim ?  I find it odd that all of a sudden this has come to light, and was not noted before.  

Great point. I think it's time to start upping the standards back up on this forum for surgeons to be recommended on here. We used to travel and visit VERY single clinic before recommending them here. 

No excuse to not start doing that as COVID is basically gone. I'm sure the site generates enough revenue for someone like Pat, Melvin to fly out for a day or two and see the standards/equipment/etc. that are being used for surgery. 

Solely using cherry picked results submitted by clinics on whether or not they should be recommended here is silly. We need to visit each clinic and know about the practices and how everything is run. 

12 hours ago, Hangman said:

Hey @Chetman2112 - would love to see an update if you can

He's too buys enjoying his new hair! His update at 5 months looked already ridiculous! 

On 9/9/2023 at 12:10 AM, NK1 said:

I am curious how many or which HT surgeons use computer or TV monitors to show the hairline design photos to the patient and then use that to jointly iterate until everyone is happy? 

 

I ask because looking at the marked hairline design the morning of in a hand-held mirror or on the surgeon's camera in a tiny room (with a tech and the surgeon around you at all times) with all the pre-surgery stress does not seem like an optimal way to finalize and approve design. Maybe I am wrong, but that's me. I mean when we go buy a kitchen countertop, we look at many designs, take pictures, bring samples home, and may take days or weeks to decide what we want.  For HT, you have to agree to a design in about 1.5 hrs.

 

Also are there any standard photo tools that HT surgeons should have or use to make this process even more streamlined? The best standardized photos I have seen are from Eugenix. You can see if the design of off or asymmetrical very quickly in these photos. I rarely see that issue with Eugenix.

I had my surgery with Konior and although we agreed upon a hairline via looking at the hotel he also showed me photos of my hairline on his camera where he was taking photos! That is something I would recommend for you is to reach out and obtain those photos is possible! 

But going back to your initial question I a m unsure what other clinics/surgeons do in regards to the hairline design and showcasing it to patients!

Great result!

Great result!