Matt27

You're currently NW3, but you're diffusing and you're going to end up a high norwood (at least norwood 5).

Certainly, although no one ever claimed strip could be taken down below a grade 3.

 

Here is a grade 3. Not even the trained eye could see the scar unless the actually ran their fingers through it.

lol. That's practically finger length. You could hide a small rodent in hair that long.

Guys with FUE are posting pictures with #1 or #0.5 in which the hair is so short you can see their scalp.

Just to clarify my opinion on the FUE vs. FUT thing - I do think that FUT is a good option for some people. Particularly those who have no interest in ever having very short hair. For the rest of us, the scar is a deal breaker.

Matt,

 

Why do you bother to participate when all you offer is vitriol and negativity ? Your comments only confuse and mislead people.

 

If they outlawed FUT today I could switch to a pure FUE practice and still do very well. I don't reject FUE for megasessions out of a need to preserve my business. I reject it because it is not what it's proponents and practitioners claim it to be.

 

The facts:

 

FUE does not allow you to shave your hair.

FUE is not less invasive.

FUE causes more trauma to grafts and donor area.

FUE does not grow as well as FUT.

 

Notice how no FUE practitioners have come online to refute any of those statements and the only one who tried got his butt whooped and disappeared ? (By the way, the way I beat that doctor was to post his own video of him removing (ripping) the FUE grafts from the donor area. You could hear the gasps from the viewers. )

 

FUE most certainly does NOT "sell itself". By far the most egregious, aggressive, and outright illegal marketing tactics are utilized by FUE salesman around the world to this very day.

 

So now that we've talked about my business, let's talk about yours, Matt. What do you do for a living ?

I'm not really trying to be negative. I just consider your business practices unethical and feel compelled to respond. You criticize my attitude, but you have a consistently unprofessional demeanor in my opinion.

You claim to care about facts, but apparently don't care about the fact that many people, including some in this thread, post their donors shaved to grade 1 or 0.5. And they usually don't look bad.

I'm sure that you would still make ends meet if you could do only FUE. And Exxon Mobil would probably still do ok if they were forced into alternative energy. But oil and gas is their gravy train and they'll be damned if it stops.

As for what I do for a living; I don't see how that's relevant.

Actually our practice is FUT and FUE based. So no sample bias.

 

When a lay member of the public says they are only interested in FUE it just demonstrates an overall lack of knowledge regarding hair transplantation in general- and that patient is usually setting himself up for disappointment.

 

Patients shouldn't try to pick the procedure they want performed. Patients simply don't understand what is involved. I know they think they do because of lay forums like this one, but discussions on this board do not include the subtle details of either surgery.

 

The bottom line is that FUE procedures injure the grafts far more than FUT and also injure the donor area more as well. The result is a consistently poor result by comparison.

 

With all due respect to education and intelligence, if a person hasn't actually performed these procedures then they have no idea which is the right procedure to have.

 

You should not be saying you are "only interested in FUE". You should be saying you are only interested in choosing the physician/clinic who can give you the best final result possible. How they do it should be left to the doctor. This is what you pay him for.

 

Hair Transplant procedures are not options like engines and radios in cars.. Unfortunately, unethical doctors, unethical equipment manufactures, and uninformed but loud online posters mislead the public into thinking that they are.

We've conversed before. And my response was that, if only FUT was available, I wouldn't get a hair transplant. Considering that, I'm only interested in FUE.

I respect that you are businessmen and, out of self interest, want to do what you can to preserve your business with the market trending away from FUT, but there is a reason you see much more anti-FUE salesmanship from FUT practitioners, who even claim to be impartial. It's because the FUE method sells itself and the slightly lower yield, etc. with FUE isn't enough to steer people away from it.

As someone who actually consults and performs surgery in an area with a lot of actors, models, musicians, etc, I disagree.

Your practice is FUT based. As someone who is only interested in FUE, I would never consult with your clinic. It's called sample bias.

Have you seen LeBron's hair lately? Looks like complete shit.

That's because he got it when he was around NW3 and now he's borderline NW5.

I disagree with the notion that public people opt for FUE. In fact, I think most "celebrities" people associate with hair transplants actually just wear partial hair pieces at public events and in movies. I have had countless patients come to me stating that they want a transplant like X celebrity and don't want one like Y celebrity, when the reality is that they both wear hair pieces and one is simply more subtle and blended with surrounding hair compared to the other.

 

However, I always recommend FUT over FUE to the model, actor, singer, etc, patients who come in. These guys need the best chance at thick, solid, natural results in the front. This is what the camera will pick up; sparse growth and gaps in the hairline, not a linear scar in the back.

They wear hair pieces because a hair transplant is unlikely to yield a Hollywood worthy head of hair. But the ones who get hair transplants and aren't strapped for cash typically get FUE.

Spex and Ernie look pretty good with the strip procedure IMO. Have you taken the plunge with surgery yet or still researching?

I've done the research. Just waiting until the best time to do it, which will be soon since I'm almost 30 and my norwood pattern is becoming clear.

I can't take finasteride so I need to plan more carefully than most. My point is just that the guys with 10s of millions generally choose FUE so it isn't just some internet hype phenomenon.

rofl. How many celebrities, athletes, etc. get strip?

Nadal, Lebron, etc. all get FUE. Because strip sucks.

That is not a mature hairline. You are a norwood 2.5 and have been on fin since age 22, now 27. If not for the fin, you easily could've experienced advanced hair loss by 30.

Ok I am doing a bit of research on Dr. Devroye and apparently he doesn't even use manuel punches.

His reasoning:

"Indeed, the engine frees one of the hands of the rotation work. The hand so freed focuses much more easily on the orientation of the hand piece and the punch. It also allows to work in normally uncomfortable positions for the hand work. It allows to increase the number of grafts collected in one day. With the hand I reached 1200 grafts a day. With the engine I reach 2000 grafts. It has enabled me to decrease my FUE prices.."

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/169281-ultimate-manual-versus-motorized-fue-thread.html

So he values speed and efficiency over quality. This is not someone I would consider seeing, based on my limited knowledge.

Where would you categorize Dr Devroye?

 

I believe a ratio of people posting pictures is balanced between people doing it out of positive and negative experience. Google displaying all photos put on the internet is a good enough unbiased db to look from. Not perfect but good enough.

 

I am hence claiming that you are wrong with calling my case especially bad as that will give wrong idea to people reading this. They should take a look at a wide selection of photos and come to a conclusion. Putting my case as "rarely before seen" is wrong and you know it. I'm not even butt hurt by it but just see it as false given the averages seen on the internet.

 

In the end why is there a consensus that short buzz hair is a no go for hair transplant? One of us is exaggerating.

Google images doesn't display every relevant photo on the internet in a search result. It displays every result that matches the search query. People who are specifically showing their donor and tagging the image with that description are typically posting it for a reason.

I am not saying that there aren't bad results. But I haven't come across an alarming number in my own research. Now, I have a certain definition of bad. Typically, there is evidence of surgery, but it is not usually cosmetically significant enough to outweigh the benefit of gaining a hairline.

And I have heard of Dr. Devroye, but I don't know anything about him and that would be because he is generally not mentioned as a top doctor who I would see worthy of visiting. Maybe he's good, maybe not. But he doesn't seem overly popular. Most of my research has been done on the top European FUE surgeons.

Regarding your last point, that consensus exists to some extent (I don't think it's consensus; more like a common argument) due to pro-FUT enthusiasts slandering FUE in an attempt to argue that it holds no benefits over FUT. Many of these people, including some who frequent and even help run this site, have a financial interest in maintaining FUT's popularity.

Google images, especially with that search query, won't necessarily provide a random sample. Certain people will be more likely to explicitly post pictures of their donor on the internet.

And it provides samples from people who have gone to any and all surgeons. Most HT surgeons are bad. I only research results from top or at least recommended surgeons.

Vult thank you for answering my questions.

 

If your doctor advised you correctly, then surely you very well understood there would be scarring all be it your case seems have bigger punch sizes or that it could be your skin contrast making it look worse than it really is or its just a mattter of that you didn't heal as well like the majority of FUE patients.

 

Now to make blanket statements such as dont do it or it will ruin your life is IMHO is somewhat over the top, as you in your situation gone down to the bone (razor) & if you thought for a second that is impossible in majority of cases & you missed judged the bigger picture, so the max for you would be a #1 guard which will most likely hide any scarring for sure, so in reality your as you say your life is ruined is simply not true.

 

Vult, you got a few options still not all lost, you could simply grow you donor just a smidge or if you want to keep it razor shaved look I to SMP which will cost you money every few yrs to have it re inked all the time.

Would you be willing to at least shave your donor to a #1 or even 2 guard? & have the top a little longer which could be a world of difference to your appearance & mindset?

You need to go down to a 0.5 to avoid the horse shoe look. #1 is too long and that's why it hides scars better. A #1 guard doesn't expose much scalp so you get the obvious horse shoe pattern. Not really a shaved head from a balding/bald guy's POV.

That looks like it would be hard to believe that guy did any FUE at all. Not that I don't believe he did it, but how many of such absolutely perfect cases of FUE are there in comparison with average and/or really bad? [edit: well they're not fully invisible and donor area was taken in "straight" lines as well; but punctures are certainly smaller than my]

 

I've had a really good post op recovery. All the drafts they implanted on me stayed from that point on. Had 0 hair loss. So I've had luck with non-visual aspects of it at least.

 

Problem with giving such perfect case pictures is that it gives hope to people, as it exactly did to me 6 years ago, and while there are good and bad cases people should also take a moment to notice the bad ones more carefully as the risk involved could easily put them in that boat as well.

 

I'm an average healthy guy and I've concluded I should've taken the risk at that point.

 

Bottom line is that you have a guy there with great results, and me with poor results. We've had the same risk factors involved. So if anyone is going through this post in their research thinking if they should do it or not, compare the photos and realize that your emotions are playing an important role and you are more likely to accept risks that in the end no one will ever guarantee you results of, because everyone knows part of those taking it will fail. And it's quite an awkward thing to fail with, lets not think of it as an acceptable failure. You can live with it, but it adds a few kilos of weight on your back.

 

You will either contend with your current mediocre happiness of the situation and work toward improving it in moderate steps or you are going all in and getting a fully restored or forever wounded state of mind. I wish you the best in your call!

I'm not cherry picking. The number of bad results does not match the number of good ones.

Just look for transplant pictures of guys getting their 2nd FUE. They have pics taken with their head shaved and their donor almost never looks like your's. There is generally little evidence that anything was done.

Regarding SMP, I don't have any experience with it. But I don't understand HTSoon's warning. You wouldn't be getting your entire head SMP'd. You'd just get it performed on the most obvious holes. And you'd get only a few done at first to see what the effect would be. The risk wouldn't be substantial in the test phase.

I understand the first impression I have left but you will see after a few of my posts that I'm marketing normal life for people, without any surgery done at best. But I've done it myself, and we all know there are happy stories out there, so I wouldn't want to try to ruin the option for everyone.

 

I'll be happy to give my real name to the admin for any cross check.

 

I appreciate you guys listening to my rant.

Yeah sorry for being skeptical. I'll have to do more research on what causes this, since this is one of the worst I've seen. I've seen so many cases where the donor won't look normal shaved down. It will be a bit uneven and thinned out more in some places, but not like this.

Anyway, thanks for posting pictures. Regarding how to fix it, I imagine SMP would help a lot, but I'm not sure if scarred tissue will take the dye well. If you did go down that route, I would take the advice that you have given to others. Have a test done on a handful of the spots to see what happens.

This is the norm that I see... he had 2000 grafts taken out by Dr. De Reys.

This guy had 5000 taken out by the same doctor. Pics taken shaved before a subsequent surgery.

Can you post some photos of what you're referring to and how your FUE scars look.

I doubt we'll get any pics. I don't know about you guys, but it seems coincidental and suspect that this guy registers and posts this thread soon after this thread was created:

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/184317-buzzing-head-possibility-after-fue-hair-transplant.html

Of course he warns against FUT too. To add credibility to his argument and make himself seem unbiased no doubt. But this posts smells like yet a pro-FUT guy trying to push people against FUE. And deny that FUE has any advantages over FUT.

Of course it's possible that I'm wrong. But marketing is a very dirty practice.

well i go down to a 1.5 and 1 guard and nobody including my barber can see it so not sure where you get this info from other than maybe your own experience which many factors including punch size and skill of doctor.

 

You seem to have a had a bad experience but posting stuff like this is not exactly very useful other than to try scare people for some reason. Yeah buzzing a zero guard is going to show something but most guys that do this know that without be super aggressive on this forum.

I've seen many heads buzzed down to zero without obvious moth eating/scarring. There is a guy on hairlosstalk, fredthebelgian, who did that.

The instances I've seen in which the FUE has had a dramatically negative cosmetic impact are very seldom. If it were that common and severe, we'd see more than 1 or 2 guys on the internet warning us about it. You can expect that it will change the appearance of your donor, but the idea is that the cosmetic benefit of having a hairline will outweigh that.

Now, the doctor and extraction pattern is obviously of paramount importance. If he takes all of the grafts in a straight line like this guy's did, you may as well get FUT.

Having said that, starting with a small transplant isn't a bad idea.

Do a "shave trial" now and see if you like it. If you do, excellent. You just saved yourself thousands of dollars and retained the ability to really "shave down." In general, you will always, always see evidence of surgery if you buzz down after a transplant. FUT, FUE, etc, you'll see something if you go down short enough. So don't go into any procedure with the mindset that you can just "shave it all off" later.

 

Shaved down with a hairline and shaved down with no hairline aren't even close to the same thing. So someone may like how he looks shaved currently, but won't as his hair loss progresses.

I shaved my head for years (#1 guard or even shorter) before experiencing significant hair loss and it looks terrible with no hairline.

So you can't save money by shaving your head. Hair growth is just as important to looking good with a shaved head as it is to looking good with long hair.

Plenty of people do it. The bigger obstacle to this method is a natural looking hairline and the transplanted hair blending with the native hair.

This guy had 2000 graft removed by Dr. Umar. The cases Dr. Blake mentioned above are in the minority from my own observations. I'ts not something I would stress over in the grand scheme of things if you go to a top Dr.

looks like a lot of area to cover for 1200 grafts, especially since it needs to be dense.

Ontop, obviously the clinics are going to cherry pick their best results - I am yet to see many clinics post bad ones, and why in the world would they, that's just plain stupidity. That's why I always take the presented cases with a grain of salt. The key are patients posting their results, that's how you really get a good feel for it. There are some recommended surgeons with very few patient presented cases. That's when the red flags should start being noted. Goodness, it were the patient results that got Doganay suspended as a recommended surgeon. Okay maybe that was due to Paleo - but still.

 

With regards to Dr Wesley, I agree with Home on this one - I think Matt has a lot of deep hate towards the good Dr, and it's unnecessary to tear apart such an outstanding result. Although he focuses on smaller cases at a time, I have been very impressed with what I have seen come out of this clinic at late. Definitely still waiting to see a higher NW being transformed, but I would betcha he has those. In addition, I consulted with Dr Wesley myself and he is one of the nicest guys around, plus out of all the surgeons I consulted with, he gave out the most information. He never uttered a negative word about any surgeon even though I was pressing him. A true professional and a true gentleman, so Matt27, I suggest you find someone else to tear apart.

Deep hate? lmao. Come on man.

Mav

I dont know the history of the O.P & the good Dr, neither do I really care to be honest but for me was just a overall observation on the industry as a whole.

& yep your dead right that why should clinics post below average results? I get it but like I said, maybe me or you we take stuff like this like a pinch of salt but others most likely dont, which bothers me, that they see these stella out of the park results bombarded everyday like thats the norm, when in reality its not.

There isn't a history. This guy is ridiculous.

My issue isn't with surgeons posting good results. That is expected and the norm in every industry. It's with them generally posting results from patients with ideal hair characteristics, hair loss patterns, etc. that exaggerate what is realistic. Even a perfect job from the best surgeons won't give normal patients these results. They're simply unobtainable for the masses.

Surgeons take credit for these stellar results, but the credit, in this case, in my opinion, belongs primarily to the patient's genetics.

The reason I posted what I did is most people apparently can't tell what I said. So you get lots of positive responses and this enables this form of misleading advertising.

I feel I can be a bit negative on this forum sometimes, but only because I feel compelled to balance out the excessively positive responses with some realism.

This forum is used as a billboard for surgeons to advertise their best results, but its purpose is honest and critical discussion.

so you can have great qualities such as hair characteristics etc + bad or inferior work and in your mind you can end up with this type of result? :confused:

I just think this was a particularly simple case. It didn't even require any real artistry since his natural NW1 hairline that he transplanted to was still halfway intact.

The average NW3 can't expect this result with that number of grafts.

I mean, it's a fine result, but it gets a bit tiresome seeing surgeons posting almost exclusively patients with excellent characteristics for marketing purposes.

Pretty much the ideal HT candidate. Great hair characteristics and a good hair loss pattern. His sides/temple points hadn't receded at all. Pretty rare to see a NW3 with remnants of his NW1 hairline.

So it's a great result, but I think that's due to the patient's qualities rather than the actual work that was done.