Increased DHT = hairloss? always?

[webapp1]

Hi,

 

If one is prone to MPB, is it possible/probable that an increase in Serum DHT levels will not increase hair loss?

 

The reason for my question is this.....I've been diagnosed with low testosterone and beganTRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) a few months ago to bring my T levels up to a normal range.

 

Some of the T has converted to DHT and my last blood test shows serum DHT level has gone from 30 to 35 (reference range 30-80 adult male).

 

I am hesitant to take Fin due to the potential sides.

Current treatment is: Minox (Xandrox 5%), Spiro Cream, Nizoral 2%.

 

Is it possible/likely that my increase in serum DHT level caused by the increase in Testosterone will not cause more hair loss? (In other words, that a DHT serum level of 30 does as much damage to my hair as a 35 serum level of DHT so that the extra 5 serum DHT is just "gravy"?)

 

Thanks!!

[mahhong]

Hi webapp,

 

I would assume that a small rise in your DHT isn't going to be make a huge difference to your hairloss. It sounds like you had pretty low DHT anyway (in line with your T) so that extra 5 (considering an additional 45 to your DHT would still put you in the 'normal' range) probably isn't going to cause a drastic impact.

 

Ultimately it's a case of monitoring your hair, though. If you notice a severe increase in hairloss then you may have to consider either finasteride or some other way forward. I would imagine, however, if it makes any difference one way or another that difference will be pretty marginal.

[webapp1]

Thanks for your insights Mahhong!

[j1j9j85]

i know many bodybuilder friends who take trt and steroids for competing and many take dutas or finest to control MPB infact i know alot about homeostasis and trt and steroids and hpta axis recovery,

 

first of all,

 

are you on gel or jabs (test sust) testosterone.

 

how old are you?

 

and what methods did you and your endo try to restore your own natural HPTA axis as often low test is a result of longterm hormonal shifts that shut down natural test production which is reversable!!!

 

many endos are very quick to put men on trt in a means to mask the real problem and to see intant benefits which result in trt and exogenus test administeration for the rest of your life!!!!

 

did he your dr identify whether you have primary or secondary hypogonadism?

 

i have helped men restore natural test production after being on trt and indeed long term shut down due to steroid use. with HPTA recovery protocols...

 

are you on any sort of oestrogen management like an aramatase inhibitor or anti oestrogen such as adex or nolva?

 

are you using HCG human chorionic gonadtropin to stop your balls from shrinking up due to the non bodily testosteron taking over the job of the nuts which shrinks them up to the size of peanuts..if you dnt stimulate them with HCG which keeps them the same size!!!!!

 

could you post you blood results for me to look at inc, shbg,androgen level,serum test,free test and also all oestrogen and LH and fsh levels please as from the bloods i can see very clearly what is going on with you!!!!!!!

 

****in regards to finest sides you are in a good positon to deal with them what i mean by that is that as you are taking trt test replacment the sides of finest will be non existant with you as you will be having your hormone levels checked regular and any inbalnaces addressed using anti oestrogens and test booster there for finest use should not have any side in theory you where already suffering form the before with the hypogonadism as this is what often occurs in long term finest users.

 

the finest use, creates a build of large free test levels which the body converts the excess test in to oestrogen so the average finest user will have high free test and high oestrogen and the dht receptors in the scalp when the dht is misplaced gets replaced with progesterone... all these fatcors in the long term if not managed then result in sieds due to a HPTA out of line such as low test issues like ED,depression,brainfog,lethargic,dry skin,libido and gyno!!!!!

 

so you see these problems are all associated with hypogonadism and this is what you must have been suffering from before so my advice to you isd use finest or dutas to keep the androgen levels down ie,dht levels down which will prevent further MPB and no sides as you are already taking meds to correct hormonal inbalances such as HCG,for the balls stimulation,adex for oestrogen management, and clomid for LH and fsh increases.....

 

so in short your close watch and blood levels checks and meds you take for the prolonged use of TRT will all ready be the exact things that wil prevent sides from finest... you are in the perfect position to use finest and experiance no sides as you are laready managing your hormonal hpta axis!!!!!

 

but please answer you my questions so i can advise you further and you can then go back to your endo with the questions i give you as im sure i can help you out alot!!!!!!

 

Edited October 31, 2010 by j1j9j85

[webapp1]

Thank you j1j9j85!!!

I really do appreciate your help....it sounds like you are very knowledgeable in this area!!

I very much appreciate the dialogue so you can help me with my issues (specifically whether to take Fin)!

Here are some of the answers to your your follow up questions:

Current age: 45

Pre TRT test level: 310

Pre TRT symptoms: low energy, libido, difficulty in adding muscle mass.

Current treatment: 125mg Test Cyp per week and .25 Arimidex EOD

Current Labs:

Total T: 778 ng/dL

Free T % 2.74 range 1.5-2.2

Free T 213.4 pg/mL range 35-155

E2: 34

 

Since on TRT have noticed improved energy, libido and muscle mass.

I'm aware that TRT is a lifetime commitment and may have permanently shut down natural test production.

 

My main concern now is not to lose any more hair.

 

Your point about why the sides of Fin should be minimal for me is a very good point.

However, since my DHT level is at the low end of the range 35 (range 30-85) and I have read that if DHT is too low, the Androgenic muscle building impact of DHT might impede my muscle building goals.

I'm also concerned about the potential sides of Fin (even though your point about them potentially being muted for me is a valid one).

 

Therefore, I'm really trying to get a handle on whether a slight increase in DHT from say 30 to 35 (due to TRT) will necessarily lead to increased hairloss.

 

I've been monitoring my hair, and have not really seen much change (although my interpretation of my hairloss by looking in the mirror is clearly subjective and not necessarily accurate.

 

so, my question remains.....do i continue with current hairloss regimen of Xandrox 5%, Nizoral and occasional Spiro or do I bite the bullet and add Fin and hope that the sides don't impact me and that the antiandrogenic feature of depressing my DHT below the normal range won't impede my fitness/muscle buiding goals?

 

Many thanks for all your help!!!!

[j1j9j85]

first of all let me be clear im not a dr but i just happen to know alot about this area due to research through bodybuilding and have alot of very in the know friends!!! any thing i say must be taken as advice only and spoken to with you dr before any changes or anything to our meds for your own health!!!

 

ok ok

 

test cyp is used in the usa here in the uk they use test en instead! but its the same!

 

looking at the results i cant tell if you where diagnosed with primary or secondary hypogonadism? as you dont show lh or fsh levels......... basically if you fsh and lh hormones are low the hypathalmus or piturity gland are to blame and if the fsh and lh are high and test is low then the nuts are to blame!!

 

did your dr tell you? or run any tests to find out primary or secondary it should be routine procedure!!!! (as mentioned many endo skip this and just go straight to trt as its easier but wrong)

 

did you try any clomid or nolva as tools to establish if it was your balls or hypathalmus or piturity gland that was at fault and not responding?? clomid an nolva (serms) act on the hpta = hypathalums piturity testical axis in short hpta and it is what keeps your endocrine system stable and maintains homeo stasis by using hormones if one bit either the H or P or T isnt doing its part things get messy!

 

but you can easily identify which is at blame with simple tablets and see how what reponds by releasing hormones and which does not (fault finding)!!!!!!

 

yes by using exogenus test suplementation you will feel an instant lift in mood as soon as the ether attached to the test wears off usually after a week of the first jab........ but as mentioned if your happy with staying on steroids then good for you but natural is better and restoring natuarl suplly shoul dalwayd be a first port of call if not possible due to malfunction HPTA and dead testical (leydig cells) then TRT is the last option.

 

How ever at an older age in my view its actually healthier to do trt as you get reg hormone and blood check and you are able to keep things stable and have ideal levels which keeps you feelling younger longer and looking so as apposed to feeling old and crap and producing more oestrogen than women which is what happens to all men when they pass a certaing age fact!!!

 

DHT is 10 times more androgenic than testosterone what i mean by this is that it will oppose oestrogen and keep oestrogen levels down and make you feel more male and build muscle more easy! so yes dht reductions will effect all of this! if you where to use the test gel or lotion adex isnt needed as the test converts to dht when incontact with hairs on the skin but because you jab the test doesnt come in contact with hairs and thus the receptors so no dht conversion to keep oestrogen down so your dr prescribes adex!!!! but i have to be honest with you muscle will grow regardless of DHT yes it is more androgenic than testosterone but test will do the job of muscle growth to and so will things like human growth hormone which is released and sleep and also iunsulin and insulin like growth factors which will all combine to build muscle mass!!! i work out and have big muscle and a 6 pack and i take dutas! it is harder than if you didnt use finest but you can still build muscle easy enough! just keep oestrogen in the normal range to high and to low will result in belly fat that also converts test in to oestrogen!!!!!

 

with fin the problem is oestrogen keep this in line and you will have little sides! remember what i said above...... fin stops dht.... dht stops oestrogen!!! so no dht results in oestrogen build up and high oestrogen results in the body reducing it the only way it knows how and that is by stopping the hormone that is converted in to oestrogen and that happens to be testosterone!!!

so fin users get low dht which makes high oestrogen which make testosterone production stop which results in a out of line HPTA and shut down occurs untill its corrected naturally when all levels come back down and in some unlucky men never unless medical intervention. using clomid and nolva and hcg .

 

think of it as jumpstarting the system hypathalmus piturity and balls think of using clomid and nolva and hcg like a jump leads on your car!!!!!!!! but on your brain and balls!!!! im surprised you dr didnt try this its very simple and effective!! clomid and nolva make the brain kik out hormones to restart the balls tesosterone production and the HCG shots is the chemical equivalent to pregnant women wee stimulates the leydig cells in the balls to wake up all combined is effective and gets the body back to normal naturaly with out the need for trt!!! how ever if this doent work then trt is the only snd last option left a plan D so to speak!!!!

 

so as had no test production and high oestrogen and hypogonadism before then you where already experiancing the sides finest can create on people! by supplying your own test and keeping an eye on oestrogen with adex and reg blood tests!!! you will be maintaining a artificial HPTA with meds and there for counteracting finest sides!!!!!

 

dont get me wrong you may experiance something may be reduced ejaculation some brain fog to start and some teething sides whilst your bodt gets used to any new compound but you certainly wont be getting any ED,LIBIDO issues!!!!

 

*if you want huge muscles whack up your doses of test cyp a week to 500mg for 12 weeks but remember to stop 3 weeks before a blood test or your doc will reduce your test supply.and dont use the finest and your hair if mpb prone will get worse there is no doubt!

 

*or keep using maintance dosages of test with all of your hair care meds and finest and be like any other young man.(except in a better position to keep an eye on any inbalances due to finest stopping sides lik ed,libido)

 

*or do a 12 week cycle on slightely above maintance dosage whilst on dutas to prevent hair loss grow big muscles and then back on to finest when you stop the cycle etc etc

 

i gues what im saying is you have to get smart an work out how to manipulate your TRT to suit you!!!!!!

 

but either way these are the facts your on trt and you suffer from MPB if you want to keep your hair take dutas or finest. if you want big muscles do blast the cruises on your steroid trt cycles take no finest or dutas go bald slowly and get huge. or find a happy medium ie,

 

stay on finest all year around stay on trt all year around! but once a year before summer take dutas on top of finest and up the trt dosage to 400mg per week for 8 weeks get buff then stop the dutas and go back to maintainance trt dose an just take the finest.... this way you get the body and save your hair more than not taking finest at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

i work out on fin and dutas and i got muscle not as hard as normal muscle but im buff none the less with the correct manipulation of your trt you should be able to look after your hair and get muscle.... how ever think of it like a sea saw the higher the one the lower the other you cant have you cake and eat it!!!! finding the happy ratio or mid way point for 8 weeks a year befoe summer is best............................ then for the rest of the year keep trt low and finest high get it???????

 

finest will also keep your prostate happy due to the exogenus test which can sometimes be a problem in older men

 

 

how ever mate i warn you after 6 months your nuts will look like peas and you ball sak will look like a empty tabaccoo pounch unless you stimulate them with HCG to keep them big!!!

 

please read carefuly and bring up these points with your dr!!

 

 

 

1. Primary or secondary ie,nuts or brain not fireing!
   
2. did ur doc use fault finding meds such as clomid to establish the fault!
   
3. HCG use to maintain testicular size!
   

 

im sure theres more on this in my brain but im stumped at the mo lol hope this helped....

 

i can put you intouch with a very inteligent guy who helped many bodybuilders restart there natural test production even after years of trt in fact he did it to himself..

 

if you get fed up of blood tests and jabbing every week and taking adex or you feel funny coz you balls have gone up inside you ahahha

 

 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[webapp1]

Thanks for all your help!!!!

[webapp1]

Hi..thanks again....I've got a quick follow up question please...it's a general question...not specifically pertaining to my situation alone;)

 

Is it true that if anyone who is taking Fin and gets the side effects, that these side effects can be reversed if one lowers Estrogen levels by simply taking Arimidex etc?

 

If that was the case, then why doesn't everyone who takes Fin and gets the horrible side effects simply take an Aromatase Inhibitor like Arimidex etc...?

 

Is it really that simple and easy to reverse those Fin side effects?

 

Thanks!

[j1j9j85]

no problem remember if your doc doesnt take the questions seriouse change doc and get the answers you need!!! its your body after all!!!! also if the doc doesnt know or is not aware of the protocols or drugs i have mentioned he will dismiss it!!! but trust me this is common practice amoungst men restoring hormonal balances the expert in the field!!!

 

the most respected dr in this area is Dr. Eugene Shippen trt hrt pct etc etc look in to him may be get an appointment if you can!!!!! i beleive he is in the US

[j1j9j85]

Hi..thanks again....I've got a quick follow up question please...it's a general question...not specifically pertaining to my situation alone;)

 

Is it true that if anyone who is taking Fin and gets the side effects, that these side effects can be reversed if one lowers Estrogen levels by simply taking Arimidex etc?

 

If that was the case, then why doesn't everyone who takes Fin and gets the horrible side effects simply take an Aromatase Inhibitor like Arimidex etc...?

 

Is it really that simple and easy to reverse those Fin side effects?

 

Thanks!

 

 

the simple answer is yes and no!

 

finest sides are very complex and usualy stem from hormonal inbalances...

 

which could be any number of things but i have to say in the majority of cases and blood results i have seen from users of finest posting results oestrogen was most often the one significant hormone having negative effects more so than any other!!!

 

that said as you are now becoming more and more aware of how easy it is to correct inbalances with meds due to your trt medication and research.... inbalances of any nature be it test,oestrogen and shbg lh and fsh can all be restored with meds!!!!

 

and it stands to reason why should side effect sufferers of finest just wait it out and suffer when by just doing a simple blood test they can see what the issue is and takes meds to speed up recovery thus improving sides quicker!!! and not waiting it out for thebody to restore itself naturally as this isnt aways possible.... sometimes it will need a jump start with meds

 

in regards to your question????

 

in the majority of cases and with the people i have helped on another forum with my friend the only course of action we did take was in fact using ADEX and this really improved his situation!!

 

for some people adex is all that is required you are correct and for some others a combination of nolvadex,clomid and HCG will be enough to reboot the most out of whack sytem unless it has been made un fixable then then TRT is the last option but this is so unheard off!!!!!

 

basically if bad sides happen due to finest its most likely due to hormones being unlevel if they take a blood test and see which hormone is out then the problem can be adressed with meds and the sides reduced and reversed! and yes most of the time adex is all that is required but not always so bloods should always be used to diagnose a problem before medicating and people should never self medicate as adex for people with normal oestrogen levels will lower it to low and then the sides of low oestrogen also result in ED,LIBIDO and depression etc etc so you will be no better of careful and correct management is all that is needed!!!!!

 

I my self periodicaly take adex at .5mg every other day for 2 weeks when needed and i have no sides this time where as last time i did so its working ok for me!!!!

 

hope this makes sense:D

 

but i cant speak for every one and i dont claim to have the answer but in the majority of cases the above protocols will work how ever!!!!!! some men can become affected in other areas of which i have no understanding?? such as nerological but this is so rare and a risk of almost every drug not just finest. i think drs need to be doing alot more research on finest before just dishing it out as it can possibly shut men down hormonaly which is seriosue they just dont understand it

 

sorry for spelling im typing fast:mad:

[webapp1]

Thanks for the clarification! Appreciate it!!