EpilepticSceptic

Taking finasteride is probably the most important thing you can do, probably even more important than the HT itself for the long haul.

Unfortunately I feel many around here will have to learn this the hard way !

10 years will go by in a flash and feel like 1 year; then you'll look in the mirror one day and realize that you've advanced 2 full NW stages that you could likely have avoided by simply taking this pill every day. That equates to about 5000/8000 grafts lost.

I feel that in the not too distant future we will see maybe another website pop up where hundreds of guys who got HTs in their late 20s/ early 30s (but failed to stay on finasteride) will be in their early 40s and cursing the day they ever sat in the HT chair, wishing they could just go bald naturally !

This is really a GREAT, well thought out post and I have to agree with it.

Unfortunately, many newbies to the HT community don't have enough research years under their belt to realize that they are talking online with docs who were part of pioneering the very advances in the HT field that we come to take for granted.

Every single day countless less fortunate victims are butchered by sub par HT docs/clinics because they were not smart (or lucky) enough to find this website. We are talking about things like pitting, cobblestoning, doll's hair minigrafts, absurdly low hairlines, ungodly stretched scars, and the list goes on and on.

IMO after reading more of Dr. Feller's posts I become more impressed with him; I say this because he's brutally honest and places everything on the table. The is exactly the type of honesty that newbies should be looking for IMO when researching HTs -- it may actually convince you to NOT get a HT at all, which for many (especially the 25 and younger crowd) might years later be realized as the best thing that never happened to them.

I must say that I agree with just about everything Dr. Feller wrote in his many posts here. The "risk" factor applies to ANY type of surgery and should not be overlooked. You can take any 2 patients who need, let's say, a surgery to remove cancer from thier colon. Ask any doctor in this field if he/she can guaruntee success and/or that results will not vary between different patients and see the answer you will get.

People here need to remember that these are doctors and they have the practical experience of having performed surgery on thousands of patients over the span of many years; so they have personally been able to witness how the "physiology" factor is a very real thing and that, even under the best circumstances, some patients will not get the results that others get even though characterisitcs may have looked very favorable pre-surgery.

I recently had a minor dental surgery to save a tooth that looked very near beyond hope on the Xray for anything other than a full blown root canal. I remember the dentist REPEATEDLY warning me that chances weren't even as good as 50/50 but he would give it a try anyway. I was lucky as it turned out successful, but there were no guaruntees and he was emphatic about stressing that point.

I think we are very lucky that the top HT docs are not charging double or even triple the amount they are asking. In the old days I believe it was like $30 per graft for doll hair plugs. If that was in 1980 then that would be more like $100 per graft today. Do the math and tell me that we are not very, very lucky today that excellent docs/clinics are out there with rates that we can actually afford !

I have to side with the physicians and particularly Dr. Feller on this one just a bit.

 

corvettester - I think your posts have become a bit too vitriolic if I'm perfectly honest. You disagree with Dr. Feller and raise some interesting and potentially valid points, but you've let your argument descend into borderline personal insults now. Trying to insinuate Dr. Feller is some kind of sub-par, heavily criticised professional is unfair and downright wrong. Yes, there may have been some dissatisfied patients, but it's unfair to suggest the list is getting long. The list of very satisfied patients is infinitely longer.

 

I think the point Dr. Feller was trying to make is a perfectly valid and acceptable one. Like it or not, it is very easy for somebody to be dissatisfied with their results and to cause a problem for any doctor they so wish. The vast majority of patients will be perfectly right to be unhappy with their results because most people do their research, know what to expect, and are sensible enough to know honestly whether their results are acceptable or not. Some people, however, could just as easily kick up a fuss unless their results were anything less than stellar. I'm not making a commentary on any specific patients in this thread (I have not read beginning to end in enough detail), I'm simply making an observation.

 

The long story short - the contract and agreement between patient and doctor needs to be FAIR and EVEN. Dr. Feller's point was that doctors need as much respect as patients do regarding the investment they put into each procedure. In the same way I do agree it's unfair to put every bad result down to poor physiology, it's equally unfair to assume every bad result must mean endless sacrifice from the doctor to put right.

 

I think if any patient is dissatisfied with their results they should have the right to talk about it openly with their doctor (or with any other doctor if they feel so inclined). If there is even a modicum of legitimacy in the patient's disappointment I would also agree the doctor has the obligation to offer a free consult, discussion and evaluation with the patient and come up with a plan on what could be done and a fair system on how things should move forward.

 

Here is where the tables turn, however. Doctors run a business and they offer a service that comes with some degree of risk. If a patient falls victim to that risk through no fault of the doctor or his team, it is unfair to assume the burden of responsibility must continue to reside with the doctor. What Dr. Feller is trying to say is simple - this forum and the mindset of some of its members is in danger of making the Dr consistently accountable for fixing everything, all the time, whatever the circumstances.

 

That's not possible, end of story. If doctors start feeling pressured to fix problems they essentially had no ability to know about or stop, the floodgates are in danger of being opened. Where does that particular buck stop? Patients could start becoming increasingly expectant of the quality of the results. "You said I'd possibly look like that guy and I don't, fix it!" would start becoming the mentality of many patients. Before long, exceptional results would be unfairly expected and not hoped for. And disappointing results would be massacred along with the reputation of the doctor. That is unfair for law abiding, upstanding doctors, none of whom will ever get it right all of the time.

 

In short, this forum is not the place to decide results or the reputation of doctors. corvettester - you are now a prime example of the problem, if I'm honest. You've named Dr. Feller, who is clearly a successful and considerate professional, a bad doctor with a growing list of unhappy patients. That's not true. But if these posts are allowed to continue willy-nilly, Dr. Feller's reputation and business could become tarnished unnecessarily. He came on this thread to defend his colleagues but is now in danger of being made out as some sort of enemy to the casual browser who might be considering their next procedure.

 

It is very cheap for patients and members to come on here and throw all sorts of names and accusations at doctors. I agree 100% freedom of speech is essential here, but that cuts both ways. Dr. Feller is concerned the bar is being set too high, too often, and I'm liable to agree with him. Some people are beginning to believe that anything less than the "wow" factor is a bad result the doctor should answer for. But if the bad result is down to bad luck the doctor was unable to foresee then it's unfair to tarnish that doctor because of it. And this forum is not the place to make absolute judgement on any individual's results or reasons for them. That belongs in the private consultations between doctors and their patients.

 

In my opinion we all need to be careful how cheaply we throw about accusations and hearsay on these forums. That throwaway insult or half-baked commentary could well be viewed as the cold hard truth to the next casual browser who comes here. Dr. Feller has posted consistently good results here and in my opinion has been by and large excellent in his relationship with patients. That well earned reputation is more easily undermined by us than it is earned by the doctors - it is worth thinking about what we all say next time we say it.

 

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and input on here and doctors should be and are liable for their results. But they cannot turn everything into magic and there will always be someone who has dismal results despite no wrong being done. At that point, these sorts of threads become pointless. The only thing that matters is the patient expressing their dissatisfaction and the doctor's express concerns and desire to re-evaluate the patient at their convenience. The speculation and antagonising that comes afterwards is all cheap talk. Dr. Feller has quite admirably come on here to defend his colleagues and by page 14 there are deep insinuations about his entire career - insinuations that could have an impact on his work unfairly.

 

I feel deeply for patients that have poor results, but I also feel deeply for doctors who spend years training, learning and developing their craft. They should be fully accountable for their work, good and bad, and should always put the patient first. But the line between putting the patient first and feeling the obligation to bend over backwards for every patient less than satisfied is a thin one. Hair transplantation is a risky business. Results are more consistent these days but can never be expected. It is dangerous for the entire industry if we begin to believe they should be expected or that, if they're not delivered, doctors should be doling out refunds and freebies all the time even when they're convinced they're not at fault. Too much of that and the best doctors will be disillusioned with how hard it is to keep their reputations and pack off from the industry all together - much to our collective disadvantage.

 

It is not a patient vs. doctor world we live in. But as much as we need to hold our doctors to account, we also need to respect them and be thankful for them. Talk is cheap and easy but consistent, professional results take many years and much sacrifice to earn. Let us all be careful how quick we are to undermine them when arguments break out here.

Lorenzo, you’re a joke. You come on here patronizing everybody who says something contrary to your thinking. You call Hariri’s comments rubbish while yours exceeds rubbish in every manner. You want to discredit members of the community by calling them one dimensional thinkers because you have the inside scoop on what goes on in the ht process. So, “all you one or two time ht patients your experience and knowledge doesn't mean anything stacked up against Lorenzo” and of course those that never had an ht "don't bother to speak". I guess instead of us commenting on this thread, why don't we leave it up to you. Maybe you can even take Joe's job. On second thought I hear the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders have and opening. I used to have huge respect for H&W but the more vile you spew out the more I become disenchanted. Like i said you do more harm to them then help them.

C'mon man, give Lorenzo a break here. Yes, he does come accross a bit like a bulldog at times -- but I think he is a well intended, honest bulldog.

Dude, it's obvious to me that you are a Rahal cheeleader. That's fine, as you should be cause he was your doc and your results are good. He's a great doc with a great staff -- no question in my mind about that. But for some reason by reading your posts I'm convinced that if this thread was about Rahal your tone would not be much different from Lorenzo's. You (and Hariri) seem to think of Rahal in the same way that Lorenzo thinks of Hasson. I don't really see you guys questioning Rahal's staff and techs. And c'mon dude, Hariri's comments were a craftily worded "low blow" to the good doctor H and his staff; and I (or Lorenzo) weren't the only ones who picked up on that BTW.

I remember in the old days on HTN people would often take it real personal if they had great results from a doc and somebody started taking slags at them; I didn't really understand that back then, but now (after having a HT) it makes more sense. If your experience at that clinic was top notch in every way and the results really great then when peeple come on and start slinging the mud it just doesn't sit well with you.

Consider that Lorenzo has likely seen many hundreds of HT cases up close and personal at the H & W clinic over the years; so it's obvious that he has alot more practical knowledge about HTs than either you or I do.

You are right Anouar, I totally agree with you. Techs work more than Doc during the surgery, maybe in that procedure, The techs of Dr. Hasson weren't good enough. Cause no one can question Dr.Hasson skills. So I guess there were some new techs involved maybe.

 

Its very sad, to see techs names aren't introduced and given their weight. What I like about SMG is that they have a head tech called Janna who contributed a lot or Dr. Rahal techs who spent years with him as stated in his website. Good point Anouar.

This is a ridiculous post. It's amazing the broad sweeping statements people can make sometimes on this forum without having any legitimate knowledge concerning what they are talking about!

When I had my surgery with Dr. H there was a MASTER tech (her name is Jodi) who has been working with him for 15 YEARS !!! To me she was Jedi Jodi ! She was indeed a take charge kind of gal, and she obviously knew what she was doing to such a degree that she seemed more like a doctor than a tech to me. The other tech had over 7 years at the clinic, and these were the two techs that worked tirelessly on me for 8 hours implanting my grafts.

To highlight just how important a MASTER tech is in a complex procedure like this, I remember very early on when they first started planting she told Dr. H that some of the holes were too small and he needed to slightly increase the blade size because her "feel" was being thrown off a bit. And it wasn't that Dr. H made a mistake either; he sized up (by eye) my grafts and made custom blades to fit, just like he had done thousands of X before. But something about my skin/physiology was throwing off her very delicate feel, and she KNEW this instinctively because she's been doing it for 15 years !! So right away he made the adjustment; this was also in the very beginning when only a small set of holes had been made.

This helped me realize the importance of a master tech, because you CANNOT expect any human being or doctor to be completely perfect or psychic. It has to be a TEAM effort. It was really great watching her and the doctor interact because she spoke to him like a peer instead of a mere employee, and you could see that he has tremendous respect and appreciation for her valuable skills. It was my impression that the master tech is like another doctor in the room who has a specific expertise based on many years of experience, and she/he will double check everything and make sure all is done to the highest standard.

I think you also have to look at the numbers when it comes to a clinic like H & W. There are 2 great docs at that clinic, and they are booked solid for months in advance (and it's been that way for many years). If the techs were really hit and miss then IMO there would be a disgruntled patient popping up every other week. But this is simply not the case.

Thought I'd stay out of this one until we saw some more objective photos of NotHappy's results; but some of the mudslinging and hysteria directed towards H & W's reputation just hit a nerve with me.

Emperor's comments are predictable, so I won't spend any time debating with him. He has ALOT of theories concerning how he would have received better results at other clinics, or even with Dr. H instead of Wong. At the end of the day they are just that, theories, because he hasn't had any work done elsewhere so how could he know if what he is saying is true ? The bottom line is that if you have had success with THOUSANDS of patients over a period of many years then why should a clinic question its' methodology ?

Concerning NotHappy's situation, I think most people here are missing the giant elephant in the room. And that is this: WHY is it that he waited until 2 years post-HT to come on here with guns blazing straight out of the gate ?

Doesn't that strike any of you as odd ? So you invest $14K in a HT to get shoddy work repaired, and then it takes 2 full years to realize that you had 30% growth, contact the clinic to express concerns, and when you feel like they won't recognize what you see as a failure you decide then to go on a rampage against that clinic ? And in the process you remove photos from your blog that portray a MUCH different perspective of the outcome of your HT (taken 12 months previous), and your excuse for that is that you were attempting to state you had toppik on (which looks suspect IMO) and because you were on an Iphone you "accidentally" removed them ?? IMO the odds that he accidentally removed those pics are probably about 1 out of 500; anybody with half a brain can see that he most likely intentionally removed them because they did not support his agenda.

Folks, I am not trying to be accusatory here but I AM trying to simply be objective; NotHappy has told other lies as well (like that ALL 2695 grafts were in the front third ONLY), so why should any of us believe that he would tell the truth about the supposed toppik photos ?? IMO none of us here should form an opinion one way or the other until NotHappy visits H & W and we can (hopefully) see some truly objective photos of his condition.

Again, why would he (or anybody else for that matter) wait a full 2 years to express discontent with his HT ? Most of us who have gone thru with this will recognize failure WAY before the 2 year mark. I know if my results looked like his 2 year pics at 8-12 months then I would have expressed my concerns at that time.

Something just doesn't add up here. The fact that, even after he attacked the clinic very publicly, they are willing to fly him up there to get to the bottom of this I think says alot about how much they care about their patients and reputation.

While I agree that bald guys are at a disadvantage, dont make it sound like if your bald, you mine as well climb in a bunker and forget trying to get into a good relationship, etc. There are plenty of woman with blad guys who are in very healthy relationships. Just bececasue your bald does not mean the only way you can be in a relationship is to deal with "issues"; thats just silly.

 

If I was with someone who would throw the blad thing in my face when she got upset, lets just say I would not be with her for very long. None of my girlfriends have ever done that or would ever do that and yes, they were all attractive.

 

Baldness sucks (In fact it really sucks) but its not the end of the world.

bro,

I know it's not the end of the world; I endured it for well over 17 years up til now. It never slowed me down or stopped me from getting chicks because I simply refused to let it do that to me.

But it did indeed cause me alot of pain and made courting women ALOT more difficult than it should have been. I've had quite a few relationships with very hot women over the years, some very painful and others not so much. But in every single case (including the current one) the balding definitely created complications that would have otherwise not been there. When you are with a chick who KNOWS how hot she is then you cannot fault her for using that to her advantage -- it's simply the way the female mind works IMO, and it doesn't mean that they are evil or malicious.

Even the sweetest, nicest ladies I have been with (with hearts of gold) always seem to have this premeditated vision of "prince charming", and he usually has at least NW2 hair. They may love you with all of their heart, but that doesn't mean that they are not thinking of "prince charming" in their mind whilst they are in the sack with YOU!

For most women, love has NOTHING to do with sex; there is usually a certain level of pragmatism involved in their view of love, hence the search for a mate who has a career, stability, etc. But when it comes to SEX they are thinking of something totally different. Most men, on the other hand, associate love with sex and in many cases cannot even learn to love a woman UNTIL a certain level of sexual fulfillment is involved. Then they will learn to endure alot of heartache and headaches caused by the woman because they cannot escape the addiction to the sex -- if it is good.

Anyway, these are my views from many years of experience in many different relationships.

I want that JUSTICE!!

 

I do agree with most of what you've said, I think women, for all their high and mighty sh!t are generally a lot more superficial about looks then men are. Sure looks are important to guys too, but guys get criticised all the time for calling their wives/girlfriends fat, and women retaliate by calling us Bald! but there's a difference, women can do something about their weight, if we could get on a treadmill and get our hair back this forum would not exist, and I'd be investing in treadmill stocks!

Ha Ha !

I'm glad I am not the only one who has thought this way about obesity. It's funny because alot of people feel sympathy for the fat women who can't control their eating habits and who sit like beached whales on a couch in front of a TV set. But IT'S THEIR OWN FRICKIN FAULT THAT THEY ARE FAT !!!!

jesus man, how easy would that be if we could grow our hair back simply by adopting a healthy diet and excercising every day !!! I'd bet my left nut that every single guy on this forum would endure the harshest boot camp imaginable (with a big smile on their face the whole time) if it would just grow their hair back.

You simply CANNOT compare genetic hairloss to obesity. :cool:

i m not that old but i can tell u guys that contrary to what the girls might say, at least in the asian society, its tough to be bald. U can be short ( obviously not midget-y short ) or face pilled with pimples ( which can be more easily fixed than hair loss ) but the worst is to spot that shiny bald head. I rank it as the next worse thing than can happen to us guys. Obviously impotency is the unanimous all time worst event that can strike us.

I couldn't agree more.

I find it funny that some of the men on this forum have made comments (and even started threads) about how women are less focused on appearence than men and less superficial, and can even find baldness attractive. Then when you look at the photos of the men saying this they either a) still have alot of hair left or b) have undergone a HT procedure because they simply couldn't tolerate the baldness stigma

In my real world experience I have found it to be completely the opposite; women are 1000 times more superficial and focused on appearence than are men, both concerning their own looks and their boyfriends/husbands/sex partners. I have often seen bald/balding guys willing to sink to the lowest and most debased levels of depravity imaginable just to get laid, whereas even the ugliest and filthiest hags seem to have much more of an easy time finding sex partners and seem to be able to choose more willingly who they'd like to be with.

Yes, there are many examples of attractive women with bald/balding men; but, like I've said before, look closer and you might discover that the picture is not really so rosy after all. Gold diggers are around every corner, and being in the entertainment biz I have come accross COUNTLESS jaded, bitter bald guys who bought the big diamond ring for the hot fashion model only to find themselves (often just 6 months to 2 years later) on the losing end of a bitter divorce -- in some cases even AFTER it was the wife who was discovered cheating on them with (GUESS WHO ?) that good looking guy with a FULL head of HAIR !!!

Again, it's a lose/lose situation and when you get a good bit of your hair back with a HT you suddenly and unexpectedly feel a strange sense of justice. :eek:

Hi EpilepticS,

 

I think that on a personal note, your response has really hit home with me, and it's only reassured even more me that what i'm about to go and do is the right thing.

 

I can relate to almost everything you said, even down to the lady killer thing(LOL). When I was at uni, i had all the girls dying over me. And after I started losing my hair the looks went from: "regular>infrequent>hardly ever>whatever baldy!"

 

It's not even about the women though, i'm happily (ish) married it's just a reaffirmation that you are desired, and that's important for human beings, particularly me I guess.

 

I'm no longer dreading my HT in July, as a matter of fact, BRING IT ON! :-)

Even in a committed relationship baldness can still be a significant problem IMO. For example, before getting this HT and seeing it grow out if I ever mentioned to my girl that she was getting a bit chubby (and suggesting, very nicely, that we go bike riding more together) she would just get defensive and IMMEDIATELY mention my hairloss. The insinuation was obvious -- "how could YOU, Mr. Baldy, have anything to say about my weight. How dare you !"

How ironic it is that nowadays she has been riding the bike without me even having to ask. You see, this is how the female mind works; if she feels she "has you" locked in, she may very well feel comfortable in letting herself go and not caring about her looks any more. But if she feels THREATENED by other women (especially younger ones) being attracted to you, she WILL focus on looking good and keeping you stimulated.

This is why I often laugh at guys on here who claim they see bald/balding guys with hot chicks all the time -- they have NO IDEA about what goes on in those relationships behind closed doors. Many of those guys could be in a living hell situation.

When you get a little older like me you have already been thru alot of this so you have the bigger picture to look at, and the harsh truth is that baldness will ALWAYS be some type of disadvantage !!! It's a lose/lose situation no matter how much anybody tries to spin it.

jesus christ mate !!!

that's about as dramatic of a transformation as it gets

i don't think he lost any weight either; i'm noticing that i look like i lost weight too, but it's really just the facial framing that creates this effect

this guy was the perfect HT candidate IMO; i say this because he payed his dues and spent time in the REAL MPB PIT so he knows what total depravity feels like.

because of this he wont mind that the crown is still a bit thin and his hairline is not as dense as Brad Pitt -- he's happy just to be out of the pit

Yeah, I was one of those guys who had the right head shape for a shaved head too.

I doned it (off and on) from age 25 to age 41 but always felt like a slave to the razor machine.

Chicks were mostly the ones who would say "you look so much better with the shaved head"; but looking back I realize that was just them being polite because they thought I looked utterly ridiculous when i let it grow out some. And they would always (about 99.9% of the time) be walking out with some dweebish looking dude who was at least a solid NW 2 or less.

Dude, I have absolutely no regrets and now rate my decision to get this HT as one of the best things I have ever done for myself in my whole life!

It is NOT my imagination that women are turning their heads and smiling at me MUCH more often now than they did before; it is plainly obvious because pre-25 when I still had decent hair I was a lady killer and remember those days very, very well. It was so frickin easy because I didn't look like some stupid old geezer, or that guy with the shaved head who is obviously just trying to hide the fact he is balding badly.

Yes, I definitely had the right head shape for the shaved look -- yet it did me no favors from what I can remember of those sad days. :eek:

Wow, this thread is getting pretty heated !

IMO we have seen this before and we will almost certainly see it again, guys with severe balding and large areas to cover whose expectations are way out of line and who expect to have rock star hair with 2500 grafts spread over a NW5/6 area. Then, when the final results are in and expectations are not met they suddenly only remember the clinic/doc promising them the stars and forget all of the sobering warnings given by the doc and staff. I know for a fact that H & W are brutally honest in their assessments during consultation and give very sobering warnings of what to expect, because I have been thru those doors myself. I am quite fortunate that my results have turned out better IMO than what they predicted for me.

The problem I have with NotHappy is that he makes so many contradictory statements that it's hard to believe that he is being completely honest. He says in his blog that he received 2695 grafts ONLY in the front third, yet the post op photos clearly show he is not telling the truth here. Then he goes on to say he is angry because he cannot shave his head anymore as a result of this surgery, yet he is a repair patient so he had already lost that option BEFORE going to H & W.

And then the removed photos where he claims he used dermatch, but to me (and many others) it looks very suspect. If he did use dermatch it had to be very, very little.

Bottom line is that he is not happy though, so I do indeed feel for him. Most repair patients who were butchered by a sub par clinic will very likely have a difficult road to travel and never arrive at where they wanted to be before they stepped in the HT ring -- this is just the sad, sobering reality for patients who don't do their research from the start.

I hope he can post some new photos where he attempts to style his hair properly and we can all see if it looks good or not.

The clincher for me was that photo showing where 2685 grafts were spread over a VERY large area, yet NotHappy claims it was just the front third which is obviously a lie.

And then you have the fact that the hair looks to be perfectly straight and the contrast ratio is worst case scenario.

Taking all of this into consideration one can clearly see in those photos Not Happy deleted that his result was up to par for the # of grafts received and large area covered.

I hate to sound accusatory, but I think he's trying to use the forum to get some free grafts to increase his density even though his result was what should be expected considering his poor traits.

Newbies need to understand that in most cases you will need ALOT of grafts to get a decent, natural looking result that will please you -- especially if your hair is straight with no wave and brown/black upon pale white skin. The 1/2 of original density (40 per sq cm) that many docs say is good enough is IMO largely misleading for the front third area, unless the look you are going for is an old geezer with a whispy combover !

Dr. H says "density is everything" and after going thru with this I can see that he is absolutely correct. This is also why by far the most important thing you can do before considering a HT is to take finasteride and try to preserve as much hair as possible.

You're the best possible candidate for a HT IMO.

I had second thoughts all the way up to the walk along the sidewalk before entering the building the day before surgery.

It came down to a coin flip for me. I picked heads and threw the coin to the pavement and voila, there was the queen's head; I threw it down again and again and it came up heads 4 more times before it came up tails the 6th time.

I knew I had to go thru with it from that point on and could finally relax ! :cool:

Hi Everyone -

 

I am a 28 year old male that after having an unfilled prescription finally started taking 1.25mg of Merck Proscar per day yesterday. I took so long to fill the script because I was terrified of the side effects. Hoping to hear people's realistic experiences with 1.25mg per day and the timeline of expected side effects if any.

 

If you could help me understand:

 

1. How long have you been on the medication?

2. What side effects did you experience?

3. How long does it take for expected side effects to subside if you had them?

4. Have you tested or heard if they are reversible?

5. Results of the medication (ie - hair growth)

 

Current Regime:

- Minoxidil 5% (Started Jan 2010)

- Finasteride (Proscar) 2.5mg (April 2011)

- Herbal: Vitamin B, Saw Palmetto, Eve.Primose Oil, Omega 3

 

Hairloss Summary:

- Noticed crown thinning November 2008.

- Minoxidil 5% since January 2009.

- Proscar 1.25mg since April 2011.

- Nizoral, Nioxin System 2, Herbal since 2009.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

amff

I tell this to most all the guys who feel the way you do because, let's face it, 99.9% of the guys who fear fin side effects have not yet experienced any major cosmetically significant balding.

There is a terror of a much greater magnitude than what you are feeling, and that is looking in the mirror one day and seeing an old man when you really are 15-20 years younger than you look.

MPB is a ruthless demonic vampire whose single goal is to finish you off; and it WILL finish you off without taking the finasteride -- it's really that simple my friend !!

That's strange epileptic i would of thought shockloss to completely have grown back my now ar you sure it's shockloss?

 

Also i'm on week 3 and i can clearly see hair groing through the scar joining line is that common did you get this so early on, i couldn't believe it when i saw it this tricho closure is astoninishing or it could be just me getting very lucky. I do have a fair bit of shockloss under the scar joining line did you get that?

bonker,

I had 4496 FUs removed via a strip that was 30cm long and 2.5 cm wide in some places; so I feel highly fortunate that the scar width is 1-2 mm pretty much all the way around.

But it is not indeed perfect, nor did I expect it to be. At 3 weeks you really can't know for sure how it will turn out. I remember thinking mine looked near invisible when the stapes came out; but down the line that wasn't the case.

Like I said, there are 2 areas that concern me a bit; they are not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but they do prevent me from sporting a #3 buzz with complete confidence that the scar cannot be detected.

I'm pretty sure the area at the end of the scar on the left side suffered some minor permanent shockloss of hair above the scar line. It's just sort of bald looking when buzzed down to a #3. And then there's an area ( 2" long) slightly to the right of the center of the rear of my head that seems to have the same look about it. I am not sure if it's permanent shockloss or just that the scar stretched a bit there. The rest of the scar is 1mm with hair growing thru it and lots of healthy hair directly above and below, completely undetectable; and so when you compare it to the less perfect areas you tend to get "scar revision greed" and fantasize about all of it looking that perfect -- and then you would essentially be in the rare club of having the perfect HT !!

TBH none of this really bothers me a bit unless I wanted to sport a #2/3 buzz.

Hey ES,

 

Have you ever considered lowering your hairline?

 

Not that your HT doesn't look amazing as it is. In one of your previous posts, you mentioned that your HT has made you into a mature NW2... yet you must have at least another 4,000 grafts in your donor area.

 

So I was wondering if you've ever been tempted to take it down to a NW1? Do you think you run the risk of further balding? Or do you just think it wouldn't look right?

 

 

Corvettester

Well, I can't say that "hair greed" hasn't crossed my mind since seeing what a good HT can accomplish. But TBH I don't think it would really improve the quality of my life that much from where I am right now.

Unfortunately I cannot show my face, but if you (and others) could see how the HT frames it then you would probably agree that a NW1 hairline might not be much of an improvement; it is a DRAMATIC improvement from where I was! So I think a NW1, in my case, would have diminishing returns for the risks involved.

That is only one reason. The other is that at 41 I see there being the potential of pursuing a NW1 hairline leading to the HT potentially being detectable, because in nature it is rare that you see these broad hairlines with HT type density. Usually the broad hairlines in nature have absurdly good density because the person has no MPB gene whatsoever, and hence never lost a single hair. But there are PLENTY of NW2s running around that have experienced some mild thinning and have less than perfect hair.

I'm actually glad we're discussing this because now that I have gone thru with this I can see (on my own head) how the true genius of a great HT doc is to recreate something on your head that occurs in nature, so that nobody pays attention to your hair or even gives it a second glance. In my case it's a mature hairline that both fits my age or a younger guy who is thinning some in the front -- so it's a win win situation compared to where I was.

The single most important issue for me from the start was always the issue of detectability by laymen in the general public under general everyday conditions; I don't want to be thought of or known as the "guy who had the HT". And it's nice to know that I still have maybe half of my total grafts left in the bank in case of that rainy day.

Now a "touch up" to maybe make the hairline even softer and the scar 1mm all the way around ? That seems like a much more realistic possibility at the moment.

nice one pal that's what i call a ht you must have some serious fertile scalpage lol. What grade buzz can you get your scar down to mate?

bonker,

I'd say a #4 to be safe; even then I might need a few sprinkles of toppik to completely eliminate any possibility of it being detected under bright lights.

But this is only because of 2 areas (one about 2" long in the rear, and the other about 3/4" long at the very end on the right side) where I think shock loss may have occured. I say this because I can clearly see the scar line in these areas ( a little white line), and it still measures 1-2 mm. So I am pretty sure it is not due to stretching.

The rest of it I could probably hide easily even under a #3 and maybe even a #2 -- that's how narrow it is.

So I might opt for a scar revision down the line just to make it perfect -- or FUE into these areas. It really isn't necessary, but it would be nice to have the #3 buzz option without needing any toppik.

massive improvement. thank you for giving us the latest top down pics under bright light. those are much more accurate to judge. I think your doc knocked it out of the park because the I would expect your temple areas to thicken over the next 6 months and for your new hairline to look close to perfect.

 

congrats again

Thanks man!

I'm trying to grow it out now and see what styling options I will have; it's hard to decide because I really do like the near buzzed down look as it seems to work quite well with the ladies !!

Here are a couple of indoor "perspective" shots taken yesterday after just waking up, so it's pretty much the messy "bedhead" look which can be kinda cool. The length is still pretty short ( 2" at the most ), and so it's hard to do anything but comb it straight up and back, or forward which looks a bit dweebish IMO at this length. We get so used to judging HTs from the clinical "top down" shots on these forums that we are often missing the bigger picture of what a HT should really be about IMO - the face forward view.

:cool:

Ha Ha ! Funny video.

IMO the easiest solution for the bald man who "accepts his hairloss" is to go after obese women who are otherwise pretty. It's the perfect match because both have something that society considers a stigma.

I have indeed had some super attractive girlfriends over the years (including the current one), but they often come with ALOT of other problems. They know they have this power over you because of their good looks which can cause alot of pain and frustration. Yes, they will look past your balding but only because they have some ulterior motive besides just accepting you for who you are. That's why I just laugh when i see guys on here saying that they see pretty women with bald guys all the time; yeah, but you have NO IDEA what that bald guy has to endure to be with that woman. His life might be a complete hell !!! My happiest relationships by far have been with fat women who were otherwise very pretty under clothes, because the roles were reversed and they were really eager to please.

I just wish there was some type of psychotropic pill that you could take and -- BAM, suddenly very obese women with layers of cellulite suddenly get you very horny. That would be the easiest solution of all and you could then truly be happy and not even bother with the stress of shaving your head every day to hide the monk fringe.

The problem I have is that when the fat woman's clothes come off my willie goes instantly limp. It really sucks that we were so conditioned and trained as children to find these super model looking skinny mutants as so attractive !!! It's a hellish trap that our society set very well for us.

I'll have to agree with "bonkerstonker"s sentiments about finasteride.

I've been on it for well over 10 years and, while it did reduce the overall intensity of my sex drive, it definitely never interfered with my ability to perform in the bedroom. As a matter of fact, like bonker said I think it probably made me a more sensitive, patient and effective lover because it took away some of the "edge" associated with my sex drive.

From age 13 to 28 (pre fin) my sex drive was a barbaric, insatiable BEAST that literally dominated my life 24/7 and was actually more of a burden than something positive. Ironically, the same thing that was causing my hair to fall out was also the culprit in making me outrageously horny to the point where it was actually harmful to my ability to concentrate in college.

I think that many of the guys who get ED from fin were probably already relatively weak in that department to begin with, and then the fin just put the final nail in the coffin for them. While in college I also made extra money by selling my sperm to a sperm bank. One of the big requirements was that you had to have a very high sperm count in order for the sperm to survive to cryogenic freezing process. I was told that my count was always VERY high, even though I masturbated quite often at that time as well. I remember there were several other guys I knew in college who could not qualify for the program because their counts were too low; these guys also had alot less facial hair as well as significantly smaller penis sizes compared to mine. In a nutshell, their sex drive was not even close to mine in terms of potency. I think it HIGHLY likely that men like this could very easily end up with ED from taking finasteride -- because they were already so close to being there anyway.

I've been on 1.25 mg finasteride for ten years.

 

Firstly physically it doesn't make you a woman i'm a proffesional thai boxer i have been since i was a child and i'm the current british champion, the drug has never heald me back as people claimed it would when i first started taking it and it has never stopped me gaining muscle mass or knocking other men out who do not take the drug.

 

Mentally i love the drug, yes you do lose your sexual desire slightly but you still want sex a couple of times a week and in my opinion it improves your sexual performance.

 

Also because you're not like a horny kid every day like virtually all men are you think with your head a lot more than your dick. As it happens in my relationship we're about even now but before i used to go in a mood if she wasn't in the mood for it every day and i'm sure every man reading this will definitely have experianced that.

 

The only negative thing i have ever experianced was in the first year i had a slight aching in my groin every now and again but it never reappeared and i can assure you that slight ache was nothing compared to the constant mental torture of losing my hair. It's a better invention than the internet.

I've been in your shoes bro, and I lived for over 15 years with your attitude.

Many here would probably not believe this from reading my past posts, but I really could give a rats ass about my hairloss personally; I too felt it was something natural and that a "real man" would swallow it with a smile and not let it bother him.

But the problem that I faced was that our society would not let me forget about it. I even traveled to many remote locations thinking that there were other parts of the planet that had not yet been poisoned by western society's bullshit tabloid culture mentality. And I met women who were quite far from the superficial shallow image obsessed stereotype that you see in western culture, the types that are into yoga, nature and not living the conventional life -- and I naively thought that I had beat the game.

But when I made my moves on these women, and ONLY after breaking the ice and arriving at that moment where you are really vibing good with them and you see the green light, BAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMM -- they laid it on me that they wanted a more "healthy" man to mate with and have children. When I asked them why they thought I was not healthy they mentioned the balding. When I explained to them that it was genetic and had nothing to do with my health they just played it off whilst they went after the guy who had the hair even though he may have been less intelligent, charismatic, and not even as sweet and kind to them. One in particular (and this was the moment that BROKE ME and forced me to delcare war on MPB once and for all !!!) was super sweet and really did like me, but her excuse was that she did not want to pass that gene on to her son if she had a male child.

After that (which was in 2004) a part of me died and I became quite bitter about the whole deal. I was half bald, but still I was one of those guys who really didn't care much to look in the mirror and worry about looks. I always felt guys like that were such sissies, so it was quite hard for me to swallow the bitter pill that our SOCIETY would not let me forget about it. I yearned for the days in the past when men were men instead of the overly feminized, pathetic, spiritually castrated automatons that the media mobsters have bred them to be today. It hit me like a ton of bricks that the stupid, meaningless tabloid culture that I so despise had invaded and poisoned the minds of people in every nook and cranny opf the planet.

After all of these revelations, and also after having discovered that URFUT technology had been developed and that I was a good candidate, my BIGGEST and DEEPEST regret was that my former attitude caused me to be woefully inconsistent with my use of finasteride. Yes, my haughty "real man" attitude had actually done me much harm because there was no way to fight the demon of tabloid culture and the media mobster grip upon the minds of people everywhere. What a FOOL i was to have let so much more of my hair (especially my crown) recede because that just set me back further in the result I could acheive with URFUT !!!!!!!!!!! I had a 4500 FU session in May of 2010, and now I can clearly see that had I not lost the crown hair that my result would be even better than it is.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Every last bit of it is the complete unadulturated truth. I don't know your age, but I am 42 now. When I was in my late 20s to mid thirties I really thought I was a "real man" and had the whole MPB psychology game whipped. If you still have some hair left and are a NW3 or less then you have NO IDEA how society will treat you once you let go and advance to that level. It's a whole nother can of worms and a bitter pill to swallow indeed when you suddenly look ALOT OLDER but you still think of yourself as a young buck and your willie still gets stiff looking at younger women, yet the 50+ sea hags are the only ones giving you any attention -- and even THEY are looking down at you !!!!

I'm not too sure who this doc was, but if he is an older gentleman then he simply has no idea the VAST GULF of difference between his day and yours. We have a dumbed down tabloid culture now where people are just automatons that regurgitate the putrid bile shoved down their throats by the media mobsters.

Good luck bro, I think you will most definitely need it !

nemo shark,

Here's the deal in a nutshell bro: today's modern HTs are an ELECTIVE cosmetic surgery!!! What this means is that, as far as the majority of society is concerned, it is something totally unneccesary and bordering on the comical, crazy and ridiculous. The way our society sees it you are a man and "so what buddy, you're losing your hair -- ha, ha, ha -- DEAL WITH IT !!!!" As a bald/balding guy you are simply supposed to swallow the bitter pill and accept your fate and the lowly status that society imposes upon you as a result of something genetic and completely out of your control!

So it is my opinion that, as far as the courts are concerned, there really is no accepted standard of care concerning HTs -- and hence the NEED for a website such as this one! Unless you are seriously butchered and disfigured by the HT doctor, I believe the courts would probably just laugh you out of the door for not being man enough to accept your baldness and join the club of the George Costanzas of the world -- the meek, mild, insecure dweebs who stare at the ground and pray every night for the day they might get to be with an attractive woman, for which they would do ANYTHING for.

As you can see by reading the countless blogs on this site, baldness (for MANY) is a very distressing and debilitating condition that literally sucks the life, hope, confidence, and optimism out of these people. Many of them go from being actively social to becoming miserable recluses who lock themselves up in their apartments and/or hide desperately under hats. Yet SOCIETY still persists in seeing this whole affair as something laughable and trite, though there are probably countless cases where people even committed suicide over their hairloss. And to add insult to injury, the same SOCIETY continuosly reinforces negative images associated with baldness in the media. Criminals are almost always bald/balding and the heroes almost always have a full flowing maine of hair. Also, about 99.9% of the time the men who are portrayed as "attractive" have full heads of hair, whereas the "unattractive" are almost always bald/balding. It's been like this forever in the world of television as far as I can see.

So anyway, IMO we are indeed VERY LUCKY to have doctors and clinics that have put forth the effort to arrive at the URFUT prodecure of today. You must understand that this is a very recent breakthrough where HTs can be undetectable, even at the hairline! Many of the good docs on this site are just people who understand the social stigma of baldness and the pain that is causes, and they have dedicated their life to furthering the advances in this field and helping people overcome this stigma -- WITH NO HELP WHATSOEVER FROM THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY !!! Yes, these advances have only come because of the determination of private individual doctors who are making a career for themselves whilst helping to positively change the lives of hairloss sufferers. Of course, I am talking about the very few GOOD doctors out there!

So you see, you simply CANNOT compare this to dental surgery or just about any other field of conventional medicine! Countless BILLIONS in non-private funding has been pumped into advancing the field of dental surgery, whereas by comparison the HT field isn't even on the map. Dentists also go thru rigorous training programs in modern universities to learn the accepted standard of care which is already established, whereas there are no such training programs for HTs. So can you see how completely RIDICULOUS your comparison between the two is ?? Cosmetic hair restoration is not seen by our society as something important, and is placed in the category of the absurd and ridiculous. You simply have to be diligent and do your research, meet as many patients in person as possible, and then hope for the best if you decide to undergo a HT procedure.

When you meet patients in person a light bulb will go off in your head and, if you're like me, ONLY then will you really believe what you see portrayed on the internet is genuine. IMO anyone who just looks at this site (or a clinic's website) and decides to book a procedure without first meeting patients is really taking a big risk. But once you see a great HT in the flesh, man all the mistrust and doubt suddenly goes away and you're like "holy crap, I guess this really IS possible today" !!

I still think some of the OP's concerns are valid, but it's quite obvious after reading thru his recent posts that he is a newbie with very limited knowledge. But hey, IMO it's better to be a non-trusting skeptical jackass in the beginning of your research. I definitely was.

What he clearly doesn't seem to understand is that most of the really great docs are like great artists who are not very good businessmen because the time is simply not there. Like Joe said, it takes hiring people specifically for the purpose of maintaining a website like H & W and most of the other clinics just don't have the resources to do that, or are unwilling to put forth the resources.

For now I'm changing my grade for the OP to a C- until he shows a little more intelligence with his questions. The whole "legal" argument of clinics posting results on their own websites versus this site is really funny and quite trite.

I don't have any doubts that Rahal's aesthetic skills are on par with Hasson.

However, I chose Hasson primarily for 2 reasons: 1) he's aggressive on harvesting the maximum # of grafts 2) he's conservative on hairline design and is one of the few docs who seems to understand that high density is the most important issue for acheiving a truly natural look.

Yes, Rahal does generally create broader, dense packed, and more youthful looking hairlines. But how long will these results last before MPB takes its' toll on the rest of the hair behind it ? All we are seeing are the results TODAY, but what about years down the line ? Will these patients with these ultra youthful, broad hairlines feel that they made a wise decision 5, 10, or 15 years from now ?

I still believe that guys under 35 getting broad dense packed hairlines are absolutely crazy and taking a huge risk that will only become evident years from now when this forum may not even be here anymore. So it was absolutely imperative for me to choose a doc who has a conservative philosophy on what can realistically be acheived in the long term with limited donor hair. :eek: