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Here I Grow Again, Thanks! I think you've just saved me 5600 dollars.

The reason that "Sebum" concerns me is because I did a test, where it shows that my DHT level is well below average. The test was taken before I started taking Propecia or Avodart. Basically, I'm not losing any hair, it's just thinning all over.

Here's the deal. I have had 2 hair transplants, and am now 2 months on Avodart. I heard this advertisement on a sports radio station, which claims to treat people with thinning hair or a problem with hairloss. So I decided to drop by the place and see what exactly the treatment is. It turns out to be a spa with tanning bed and the whole nine. I was sat down in a small room with this machine that I can recognize it as being a all around low level laser stimulator machine (sorry my internet lingo is not yet up to par). The guy walked in and introduced himself as the owner of the spa and explained that I will be put under the machine for 30 minutes a day, 2 times a week for the first 4-6 weeks, and after that once every week for a year. He also explains that aside from the DHT, the sebum built up can also cause the hair to be dormant. So on top of the laser treatment, he introduced me to 3 shampoo, conditioner and cleanser which will help me get rid of the sebum and reopen the clogged pores. He also throws in a filter which goes into your showerhead to filter out chlorine. He said chlorine was Protein killer, so he wants to be rid of that. All for 5600 dollars or somewhere around there. Now all my red flgs and alarms are going off, but on the other hand I have this attitude where "it couldn't hurt". I was sure to do it, but he was a bit pushy at times with lines "What can I do to help you sign up with us today". What do you guys think? Any success stories with these type of treatment? Aside from time (1 year) being spent, and 5600 dollars down, could it actually hurt? Is the Sebum one of the causes for baldness? If yes, how do you make it better? Thank you Regards,

bayscholar, Thanks for the response, it was a big help. The thing is do you still lose the normal amount of hair in the shower and such or does that massively get reduced by taking Avodart?

Hi all, I went to see Dr. Wong in January, and recommended me taking a pill of Avodart per day for a year before coming back to see him again. I've been doing that for a month and 3 days. I'm just not sure if this can hurt me. So far, I haven't had any side effects such as decrease in libido or ED (still going). Another issue is the shedding. I'm not sure if this is actually shedding, but I'm still losing the same amount of hair in the shower or from when I woke up, but I think it's been like that throughout my life. It's not much hair that I'm losing or anything, I heard that people lose 100 hair a day or so? So what are your opinion? I have a thin hair. Dr. Wong said that I do have the numbers, except they're thin.

fit2betide, I'm a new member also just like yourself, but one thing for sure, I've been reading this forum for less than a month. One thing that caught my interest regarding your post however, is that coalition doctors actually have to pay a fee to get advertisement on this site. Of course this raised some concerns as you might imagine, but then I thought of how else would Pat be able to actually keep this sit going. A lot of hairloss sufferers are on this site, and it's started by Pat, also once a hairloss sufferer. It's hard to imagine that Pat and others just got whoever that pay enough money to become a member. He thoroughly researched the doctor and visited their offices to see whether or not they're ethical and capable. At least I hope that that's the case. A lot of other contributors on this forum are also very helpful and they know full well what we are going through, because they once use to be like us. As for my case, I was in a state of panic and lost and don't know what to do. They treated my problems as their own, they told me to calm down and research this throughly. But you're not talking about anyone's credibility here. I just want to be sure you understand what it takes to keep the site running I suppose. It might be a form of advertisement, but I'm sure and hopeful that Pat had chosen his doctors carefully and only selects the very best base on results. As you can see, he has cut down some doctors already and I doubt it's because of them refusing to pay the advertising fees. Although I can see your point, I too get confused with some of the doctors. I spoke with two of the coalition doctors and they gave me a different graft numbers. I didn't ask for dense packing but Dr. DeYarman's method was to pack them in at 40 hair/cm^2 for me. He also requires me to shave my head. I imagine that's what it means by dense packing. As for ultra refine grafting, I think it might be the process of using a smaller blade to do the incisions in order to fit in more graphs thus accomplishing the dense packing. I'm speaking to Dr. Wong this Friday, and I will ask him more regarding the issue. As for others, you read my post, you have a pretty good idea of how I am. Freightened and lost to say the least. I appreciate all the help that you've give me thus far but of course this is the internet. We don't know each other personally and the only thing we have in common is that sense of insecurity due to our problem. With this in mind, I'm sure no one is out trying to "screw" the others just because we all know how it feels of having self confidence being shot. fit2betide, I spoke to Dr. Reed, and Dr. DeYarman personally and they both seem to genuinely care. Skillwise, I can't be sure, but at least they're very ethical in my case. They want me to stay on Propecia for 9 months to a year before doing anything. So ethicially speaking at least, they seem to pass that test. This just shows me that Pat did his homework in that part. Regards

Gorpy, was shockloss a concern for you at all? I'm planning to get a hair transplant late this year, but I have hair all over my head. My hair is also fine, and I'm very scared of getting my third transplant (I had 2 already). I'm very afraid of shockloss at this point.

Chris, You're like me actually. I also have hair all over my head, but also pretty thin. I'm 26 going on 27 now, and I will do everything I can to restore my hair before I'm 30. From the look of it, you can definitely pull off the shaved look without anyone ever raising a question of hairloss, so that's the positive thing. It's unfortunate to hear you deciding to stop with Propecia, because when you do decide to go under the knife again you might have more to work with. Maybe in the future, the technology will advance so much that a full head of hair is acheivable with minial costs and wounds. Good luck once again, and do check back from time to time. Regards.

Chris, Sorry to hear about your situation. Although we're pretty similar in term of graft counts (mine is 1820), I definitely will do everything I can to acheive the best restoration. My last operation was in 2004 and I've been putting it off ever since in both Propecia and research. I am now back on it, and even though it might not grow any new hair, it might help me with what I have. About your sexual side effects, I thought it goes away after a while? I would very much like to encourage you to fight till the bitter end, but it's all up to you. Have you talked to any of the coalition doctors? Maybe putting it off until you're older might be a good idea. And you know what, as long as you have a nice head, having it shaved might not be that bad. Good luck in everything. Regards

It seems that H&W has a very good track record. If you read my previous posts, you'd know that I've been running around like headless chickens to 4 doctors already plus 1 dermatologist. The doctors of interest are Dr. Straub, Dr. Elliot, Dr. DeYarman, and Dr. Straub. I'm booking a flight out to Vancouver next Friday to see Dr. Wong and Joe to see what they can do for me. Pray for me.

By the way, Dr. Benitez prescribed me six months of Propecia (yay) and mentioned sexual dysfunction (nay), a shampoo called Capex (fluocinolone acetonide) to apply on my scalp once a week to get rid of my flakly scalp. She then told me to go get the over the counter shampoo called Nizoral AD 1%. Can anybody tell me if I should go ahead and use Capex like she prescribed? When she used her medical term I heard the word "mild steroid" in it. And how is Nizoral AD? I guess what I am asking is whether or not if it's know to cause hair to fall does it? I am currently using head and shoulders and pantene to shampoo my hair twice a day, because it does get that oily overnight and through the day. Thanks for all your response. Regards

Bill -I'm almost embarassed by the amount of post I've injected into this forum, but once again desperation got the better of me. If you can't tell already, I'm the "want to get it done now" kind of person. Absolutely not a good thing in this case. Cousin -That seems to be the plan for now. Eight months to a year and see what it does for me. something -I'm glad you had two successful surgeries with Dr. Elliot. I am not saying that I had a failed operations. If there was anything Dr. Elliot failed that I can see right away was his failure of telling me to get on Propecia from day one. It's taken me 3-4 years to get back on it(I did once before for six months), starting two days ago. Another thing was that my follow up appointment, I had to do it on my own. No one contacted me or anything, is this common? I personally do not have a problem with Dr. Elliot. He's very personable, and approachable. I first wanted to go back to him to ask him if his grafts had actually grew and am I just losing my natural hair. He said yes it did, but I should have been on Propecia *sigh*. I'll go to him this Monday again to ask him some more questions regarding my donor area, my transplant, my possible future transplant. But yes, for now to a year or 8 months Propecia.

Bill, I went to the dermatologist today as per suggestion by B spot (if this isn't desperation, then I don't know what is) She went by the name of Dr. Erma Benitez of Los Angeles. She said that I do have hair all over my head and my donor area is not thin, nor is it thick. She said because I am of Asian descent with a straight fine hair and that just seems to be the case. I however, suffered a mild form of Seborrheic Dermatitis, which is an inflammatory skin disorder on my scalp (good one), and is very dry at times. My skin condition is different that a lot of people however, in that it's both dry and oily. She tried to explain it, but I didn't quite understand, so I'll just leave it at that. I mentioned that Dr. Elliot said that I have plenty of donor hair to acheive the look that I want, and that my hair is medium size for male, but fine for Asian. She said that he was correct, and said that I have enough donor hair to do the job I want, but she wasn't sure if it's possible to do it with 3000 grafts as Dr. Elliot mentioned. Maybe "multiple sessions" she said. So all in all, I have a decent donor area which can help me acheive my goal, according to Dr. Erma Benitez. I just don't have as much hair as other people I suppose. Regards

Apologies Nelly and others, I don't mean to come off as a kid running around with scissors. My worries are lessen now, due to some talks I've had with some close friends of mine. My confidence was shot and still is and because I'm only 26. In addition to that, I am planning to stay off Toppik because I just can't pretend anymore and letting myself believe that I have more hair than I do (No offense to anyone using it of course). I will now shave my head with a #1 or #2 clippers. I wonder how I would do with the ladies now. (Honestly one of my major concerns) Anyway, thank you for your supports. I will try to keep things in under one thread from now on and I will definitely seek more consults before I jump into anything again. I will decide whether or not I'd need to fly out to see Dr. Shapiro. I'll keep you posted. Once again, thank you for your support and comments. Regards.

Nelly, I'm not sure if I can see the scar through the back of my head. You're correct that I am of Asian descent, and that my mom does have a thinning hair. I will get an opinion on Wednesday and will bring up the issue with Dr. Elliot on Monday when I see him again. From what I'm reading though, it's really scaring me even if I had already gone through 2 hair transplants with him. You restated your belief of how much hair ones need, and in my case, the start of 3000 should be fine. Let me ask you one more thing Nelly, do you think my donor area has enough to accomplish that? I really do hope it's the light from the camera that does this.

By the way, are there any method to tell whether or not your donor area has enough hair to transplant? If I can get my hair on top of my head to be as thick as my hair in the back, I think it would be enough to satisfy me. I'm not sure if it's the length of my hair that cause this. About 1 inch long, and my hair on the top is about 1.5 inches. I don't even have a girlfriend yet, maybe it's shaving time.

Thank you for your comment B spot. I thought that I might had a thin donor area region too, but I honestly am not sure. When I take a photo at different angle, it looks fine and thick, just like the photo I took of the top of my head. I am wondering if this is true for everybody as well?

Thanks Nelly. As you can see, I'm a nervous wrect right now, and I've actually lost appetite, and sleep over this. I've heard of horror stories of people with hair transplants, and it really made me scare. My third one absolutely need to be a success. I do hope 3000 or 4000 or whatever would give me good coverage and density I am looking for. I also hope my donor can provide that much. By the way, if you don't mind, could you post a comment on my new thread. I'd just like to see if the grafts that people have been posting would change at all, and whether or not my donor area has sufficient hair to do the job. Regards.

Angle and lights do make a lot of differences. These photos are taken at the same angle (for those of the same pictures) and same lighting (Fluorescent and flash). The only difference is the placement of the camera. I took a couple of shots side by side at different angles, and those of my donor area. Do I even have enough donor hair for my operation? Dr. Elliot assured me that I have plenty and more while Dr. Strab said I don't.

Thank you Nelly. I just finished the research on both Dr. Elliot and Dr. Straub just now. Neither of them is too popular. I might book a flight out to Dr. Shapiro in 2 weeks to get his assesment. Is it true though that for the top of a person's head to be full, one needs about 5000 grafts? If that's the case, wouldn't I only need about 3000 or so? I took those pictures with my camera with a strong flash. All doctors and coworkers told me it's not as bad as it look in the picture. But doesn't sunlight do that to you as much as the flash does?

One more thing I'd like to add about Dr. Straub is that he has a very good personality. He seems to be a realist, even though I'm hoping I can get more than 1500 grafts in multiple sessions. I was a wreck, and he noticed that. He assured me that my hair doesn't look that bad, and that he can grow hair, he just won't promise me whether or not that will make me happy. He seemed very honest, and if nothing else, very ethical since he turned me down before. So now, I'm more incline towards Dr. Straub. The only thing remaining is his skill. He said that he can make a very fine stitch in the back of your head, by the method of try...something which let the hair grows out from your stitching. Still, what concerns me is that he doesn't seem to have many clients. He's surely not as busy as Dr. Elliot. Another thing is that Dr. Straub kept assuring me that he only wants the best for his patient. He wants me to be happy, but doesn't want me to expect something unrealistic. I don't think making my head looking full again is that unrealistic though, I will talk more with him. PS. After I did some search on Dr. Elliot...SCARY

Thanks for the positive replies guys. I went to see Dr. Elliot (my original hair transplant doctors) and Dr. Straub today. You can find my thread on this forum regarding it. Know anything about these two? Dr. Elliot is steadfast in maintaing that his grafts grew, and that I just lost my natural hair. Well I guess, that's the best news I can take right now.

Hi guys. I'm back again with an update on my quest for a more dense head of hair. I originally had an appointment with NHI today, but of the stories and rates I've heard of, I decided to go to Dr. Straub and Dr. Elliot (My original hair transplant doctors). What two different experiences I had. It's not that one is better than the other, it's just the way they approached my hairloss problem. I now have the exact number of grafts that were put in now. If you can, please refer to the picture in the other thread. Transplant #1: 757 grafts 11/3/03 Transplant #2: 1063 grafts 4/23/04 Total: 1820 grafts I will start comparing the two point by point and in the end please give me your honest opinions on both of them. They're not on the coalition, and I haven't yet searched for their names. I will do so after I completed this thread. Hair Diameter and donor area: Dr. Straub: He said that I have a very fine hair, and that my donor area might not be able to give me the look that I want. He determined the diameter of my hair by using this videocamera which magnifies my scalp and hair and shows up on the television. I then asked Dr. Straub to see if the grafts done by Dr. Elliot had grown at all, he did so and found some that grew. The others he can't tell, which might be because Dr. Elliot had done a good job on it. He also mentioned that it's unlikely that my transplanted hair didn't grow at all, it probably got offset with my natural hair just like Cousin_IT said Dr. Elliot: He had his assistant take a photo of my head. He does not have the old pictures of me before the operation since it's in his other office. I will go back again on Monday for a more definitive proof. Since we cannot yet compare the two photos, I then asked for him to inspect the place where he had transplanted my hair to see if the hair had grown from those grafts. He went to the back of my head, looked through his magnifying glass which clamps onto his head under a strong light which attached to his goggle, and said yes, it grows beautifully. Since he did it himself, maybe he is able to recognize his own work? I will ask for him to prove it for me on Monday. As for my donor area, he said, I have plenty to work with. I told him, that Dr. Straub had mentioned otherwise. He then disagreed with Dr. Straub and said that I have plenty of donor hair to work with and I only need about 3000 more to get it to where I want. I will also ask him how he can tell this without looking thoroughly at the back of my head on Monday. Amount of grafts for transplant: Dr. Straub He said he will do the maximum of 1500 of ultra refine grafting and not shave my head. From what I understand, ultra refine grafting is used to insert a single hair to get the maximum density right? He doesn't want me to lose too much hair at one time. He gave me a choice of 1000, 1200, or 1500. Dr. Elliot 2000-2500. I haven't asked him how I would look after that yet, but he said that I have PLENTY of donor hair to work with. We shall see. Date of operation: Dr. Straub As soon as I want it. Next week or two, it seems his office is not as busy as Dr. Elliot. Dr. Straub, if you're reading this, I am no mean offending you in anyway, but I need to get facts from my hairloss comrades. This led me to wonder whether or not he does a good job. He also told me to get back on Propecia, which I did right away and he sold me 1 box of 3 months supply with 1 box of 1 month supply for 190 something dollars after 25 dollars rebate. So I'm on that now...yes! Dr. Elliot He told me to wait 8 months before he does anything. He said my transplanted hair is growing in well, but might have lost my natural hair in the process of waiting since 04 without Propecia. Honestly, no one told me to go on it. Anyway, that's good of Dr. Elliot of wanting to see what Propecia will do for me and push the operations to 8 months time. Goal: Dr. Straub He said he can make my hair look denser, but don't expect it to be as dense as the back of my head. Dr. Elliot He said he can make it very dense, and with my donor supplies, it's not that difficult to acheive my goal. Of course at this point, my heart took off on its wings and thinking that I still have a chance. However, I'm more careful now than ever before. He also said that everyone needs about 5000 hair to acheive the full look one wants, and I'm almost half way there...yay? He also mentioned that my hair and head is pretty ideal for hair transplant since it doesn't leave scar and it heals well. All the grafts stuck to the skin. That made me happy, and I truly hope it's true Type of hair Dr. Straub: At time he said I had ultra super fine hair. Dr. Elliot: He said that I might have a fine hair for an Asian but for everyone else, he considered my hair to be of medium size. I'm very confused. Fees: Dr. Straub 3.75 per graft Dr. Elliot 4.50 per graft As mentioned before I will go back on Monday and look at the pre op against post op against now, and I will ask him questions of my hair size, my donor area, and whether or not it's acheiveable. I don't know much about these doctors but one thing for sure, Dr. Straub turned me down in 2002 because my hair wasn't bad. He could have operated on me, but he didn't. Dr. Elliot operated on me roughly a year or so later, when I might have continued to lose more hair. Questions to you good people is that. From your experience couple with what I mentioned here, who do you think I should choose if I am left with these two? Are these doctors any good at what they do? Regards

Bill, My first HT was also with Dr. Elliot. At that time it was full of promise and I was looking forward to getting more hair. Strangely enough he only targeted my crown area and in the middle part. He did not touch the frontal part at all for the two surgeries. I don't think it's improved. My surgeries was done I believe in May 2003, or May 2004 and the second one is about 8 months after that. Whether my first operation is in 2003 or 2004, both of the hairs resulting from those operations would all have already grown out by now. I am definitely trying to slow down and take a deep breath as you suggested. My alternative is to shave my head at number 1 or number 2 clipper. I did that before and I didn't look bad. The only bad thing would be my scare on the back of my head doing a smiley face to everyone behind me. Everyone kept asking me what happened to the back of my head, and I just kept replying I had an accident. It's probably been 2 years + since my last operation, and the only reason I didn't continue with the hairloss is probably work and Toppik hinding my fakeness very well. Right now, I feel that I need my own hair, that's why I appeared to be very panic. Bill, in your honest opinion, how much maximum density do you think I can acheive? At least enough so that the light can't go through? I realized that there's no way for me to get my pre-hairloss density back, but having more hair to fill in than now would do me a world of good. Also I took the picture with the camera and its flash was really high and it seemed to expose everything there was to expose. I took the picture again with non flash, but under the florescent light, and it look pretty dark. The plan for me remains to be this though. Get the operation, take Propecia, and shaved my head at number 1 or number 2 clippers. No more Toppik for me! Sorry for my rant Bill, but please answer what you can. As you can see, this is me being a bit more than distraught. Regards

Thank you for all the comments Jotronic and hairbank, please reply to the private message I sent if you can. The funny thing is that I had my coworker checked it out today, and he said that yes I do have a thin hair, but he doesn't think that I'm even going bald. Under certain lights, he said he can't even see my scalp, and once he did, he said it's just because I have a short hair. 1.25 inches to be exact. Am I just overly worrying about this? I am certain that I definitely need more hair to satisfy me though. Regards.