PerfectFew

Something I have seen on another site (hairlossdoctorlist.com), which I think is a great way of being truly "transparent" is to follow something like this:

"This website exists for the sole purpose of educating the public about hair restoration surgical and non surgical and to become aware of the physicians who offer hair transplantation. It is up to each individual to do their own investigation and due diligence in determining if hair restoration is right for them and who should perform the surgery for them.

Physician members are encouraged to maintain ethical advertising standards and disclosing to prospective patients if they are featured on any other forums or websites and to disclose any monetary cost for being featured as a recommended physician."

What do other members think about this? Would you agree that it is more ethical? I would like to see something similar here. It would be nice if the owner of this site who profits from it not post recommendations. It is a conflict of interest, and a biased opinion.

Wouldn't you agree?

Something I have seen on another site (hairlossdoctorlist.com), which I think is a great way of being truly "transparent" is to follow something like this:

"This website exists for the sole purpose of educating the public about hair restoration surgical and non surgical and to become aware of the physicians who offer hair transplantation. It is up to each individual to do their own investigation and due diligence in determining if hair restoration is right for them and who should perform the surgery for them.

Physician members are encouraged to maintain ethical advertising standards and disclosing to prospective patients if they are featured on any other forums or websites and to disclose any monetary cost for being featured as a recommended physician."

What do other members think about this? Would you agree that it is more ethical? I would like to see something similar here. It would be nice if the owner of this site who profits from it not post recommendations. It is a conflict of interest, and a biased opinion.

Wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Mr. Perfect,

 

What do you want to hear?? Ya he makes money-possibly lots. So what? It does cost a lot of money to run a business and I'm sure that he is accurate in his statement that in some years the company was not profitable.

 

Why is it that Dr.'s want to be on this site. Do they want to be extorted? I had never heard of Dr. Nakatsui until Pat made us aware of him. Yes he is now a Coalition member, but it was his choice. I rather doubt that Pat said "join or I'll defame your abilities." How do you explain new members wanting to join?? Don't you think that in such a small tight knit profession that word would get out if it was such a bad thing to join as a Coalition member? Top notch surgeons are seeking out Pat so that they can be members.

 

NN

Mr. Nervous,

I want to hear the truth. The doctors do not want to be on this site. That is the nature of extortion. This site is nothing but advertising. Just tell the truth! They don't seek him out. He seeks them out. People are just now starting to see the reality.

Pat makes a lot of money by leaching off of these physicians. Making money is fine, so long as you are willing to state it clearly.

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Perfect idiot,

 

Bill made an error and I'm sure that when he realizes this he'll correct it.

 

NN

Nervous Nutsack,

I'll believe that when I see it.

Pat,

Have you asked the following doctors who are part of your list (including some on the coalition) why they are part of the Hairlossdoctorlist.com? I think it is great that you recommend them here. They are all fine doctors. Why would 4 of your "coalition" members choose to do this, if you say the other site is not ethical?

Dr. James Harris, MD

Dr. Bobby Limmer MD (coalition member)

Dr. Bradley Limmer MD (coalition member)

Dr. William M. Parsley MD

Dr. Bernard Nusbaum MD (coalition member)

Dr. Jerry Cooley MD (coalition member)

Dr. Michael Beehner, MD

Bill,

Since you clearly posted a lie in the other forum about these doctors not meeting the standards here, would you kindly go back to the other forum and explain why you chose to defame them?

Pat,

Have you asked the following doctors who are part of your list (including some on the coalition) why they are part of the Hairlossdoctorlist.com? I think it is great that you recommend them here. They are all fine doctors. Why would 4 of your "coalition" members choose to do this, if you say the other site is not ethical?

Dr. James Harris, MD

Dr. Bobby Limmer MD (coalition member)

Dr. Bradley Limmer MD (coalition member)

Dr. William M. Parsley MD

Dr. Bernard Nusbaum MD (coalition member)

Dr. Jerry Cooley MD (coalition member)

Dr. Michael Beehner, MD

Bill,

Since you clearly posted a lie in the other forum about these doctors not meeting the standards here, would you kindly go back to the other forum and explain why you chose to defame them?

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Mr. Perfect,

 

Bill did not lie, he made an error. It is allowed. Yourself however, have made several accusations with no substantiated proof.

 

You have said what it is you wanted to say so I believe it is time for you to piss off and go support your other site. Best of luck.

 

NN

No, he lied. It is clearly obvious. It needed to be pointed out so that these fine doctors don't get defamed.

I am a patient advocate. Until Pat comes out and clearly states the truth behind the "coalition" and the "recommended" doctors, I will continue to educate patients.

I have made no accusations. I have substantiated proof. Why don't you just ask the doctors in question?

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

 

I certainly use to have some of the same questions as you, but soon came to realize that Pat is a stand up guy that has capitalized on a much needed service. Who cares how much money he makes promoting this site as long as innocent patients are getting the knowledge they need to avoid being butchered by some hack. That is invaluable.

 

Bill has made a great point in that there are several well respected members that have posted here for years and you show up out of the blue and try to discredit this site. Do you think you'll have many followers?? We aren't idiots, we can see your intentions and know why it is you choose to slander this site and Pat.

Nervous Nelly:

A stand up guy would disclose the fees he charges. He would clearly state where he is promoting doctors for money, and he wouldn't "recommend" doctors publicly on the forum. He would leave that to the patients. It is a huge conflict of interest.

By the way, I didn't show up out of the blue. The only reason I came to this site is because someone from this forum and Pat started it all by posting defaming posts in this forum about a competing forum. Then, they went to the other site and posted more defamation. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Pat & Bill showed up out of the blue, because the paycheck will be getting smaller. And very soon, it won't exist at all.

Originally posted by rp1979:

Pat,

 

Have you asked those certain coalition and recommended doctors on HTN, namely, Dr. Bernstein, Dr. Cooley, Dr. Limmer, Dr. Harris and Dr. Nusbaum why they have listed themselves on Hairlossdoctorlist.com ? If so what were their reasons?

 

Thanks.

RP

I agree. Don't forget Dr. William Parsley.

Please Pat, enlighten us. One of your members "Bill" even went on the other site and posted lies saying they weren't listed here because they didn't meet your standards. What Bill did was probably slander, and could even warrent a defamation lawsuit.

The fact is, they are listed here. Can you enlighten the public forum here about why they would join the other site (hairlossdoctorlist.com)?

Can Bill enlighten us as to why he LIED in the other forum?

Originally posted by Bill:

Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up.

 

Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

*Yawn*. You are going to have to do better than that to deflect my logic.

You really think the readers of this site are going to believe I'm being paid off? I've already openly admitted that I have applied for a recently posted paid position...but I've been here for almost 3 years. Read all my posts (all 2900+ of them) and tell me what you think then.

Anyway...

Your doctors pay a fee for your site too...see my number 2 that I already wrote:

2. How is the hairlossdoctorlist funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

Try again.

Bill

yawn... I see you went and posted lies in the other forum. You claim the doctors there didn't meet the standards here. COMPLETE LIE. Wow!!! Those doctors are also listed here!!!! Please be careful. Your lies can get you into LEGAL TROUBLE.

Here are the facts:

A) I inquired. Doctors pay $200 per month to be "listed" on the other site. That is a very nominal fee. They are not recommended in the forums by the owner of the site. They are paying for advertising, and do not receive special treatment. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE? Readers: Don't be fooled.

B) Pat charges $600 per month for listing and $16000 per year to be in the "coalition". If you add up the numbers, you will see it is nothing short of extortion and deception at its worst.

Originally posted by Bill:

In case anyone is interested...I posted at the hairlossdoctorlist.com site the following which can CURRENTLY be found here if not removed: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quoted directly from the hairlossdoctorlist website:

 

"Hair transplant surgeons have been compromised by less than ethical organizations that charge a substantial fee to be listed as a recommended hair restoration surgeon. It is up to all ethical hair transplant physicians to avoid the trap of being recommended for a fee rather than their skill. It is up to each patient to ask "why" a doctor is recommended on a particular site and disclose monthly or yearly fees associated with being a recommended physician. Websites with a recommended list of Physicians that portray themselves as patient advocacy sites should also be questioned: Do physicians pay a fee to be listed or is it truly an unbiased patient advocacy site? Do those sites allow paid employees of physician's practices to "pump" or "hype" their physician employers? Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed. You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here and also ask what they pay as a recommended physician on so called "Patient Advocacy Sites". The Physicians listed are not allowed to have paid employees of their practice post on any of the Forums. "

 

This statement is completely false.

 

I think any readers of this community should ask themselves several additional questions:

 

1. What has more credibility?

 

A. A site for patients provided by patients where doctors are held accountable for their actions to remain members

 

B. OR a site for doctors run by doctors who didn't make meet the qualifications to be recommended by these sites.

 

I encourage you to read this thread and view the picture of a Dr. Goertz post op picture posted by Pat Hennessey the publisher of the Hair Transplant Network: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

2. How is this site funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

 

3. One of the requirements to be a hairloss doctor member is to be in good standing with the ISHRS. Guess what? This organization requires two things and two things alone: that a doctor have a medical license AND that they pay a fee.

 

4. Patients can hold doctors accountable...how can doctors who run this site hold themselves accountable? Is that not a conflict of interest?

 

Doctors here (and a few members) will try to convince you that they don't enlist on the other communities because the fees are too high. Consider how much hair transplantation costs and how much money these clinics are making...certainly they can afford the fee.

 

Here is a quote from the well respected Dr. Feller of Feller Medical in NY posted at the Hair Transplant Network:

 

 

"HT doctors have been ducking the internet for years- looking for any and every excuse not to have to participate.

 

Most of them know their work is substandard compared to those doctors who encourage their patients to post photos of every aspect of their procedures.

 

Rather than improve their work, they try to tear down the forums used to display other doctor's work. It is so transparent.

 

I have been attacked by other doctors who've critisized my use of the web to display my results. They think it is "wrong" but can never articulate why. Interesting isn't it?

 

Anyone with a medical degree and the due's fee can be an ISHRS member. It is meaningless as far as merit goes. Any doctor who honestly believes their work is superior should have no problem allowing themselves to be scrutinized DAILY on the web. If a doctor resists this, then you know where he/she feel's they really rank in the pack."

 

 

From the hairlossdoctorlist site:

 

1. Be a member in good standing of the ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery) for a minimum of 3 consecutive years.

2. Must practice within the United States of America.

3. Member Physicians must perform all his own patient consultations.

4. Members recognize that hair transplantation has evolved over a number of years and commits to continuing his/her medical education.

5. Must be willing to share high resolution before and after pictures with his/her prospective patients and offer patients the opportunity to speak with other patients at their request.

6. Members must not allow employees of their practice or other paid independent contractors to post in the forums because of obvious conflict of interest.

 

Remember what I said about the ISHRS above? Now look at number 1 above. Good standing of the ISHRS simply means that they keep their medical license and they pay their fees.

 

Look at number 2. What does location have to do with the skill of the doctor?

 

I have absolutely no problem with physicians performing their own consultations, however, the use of consultants does not necessarily indicate a poor clinic. Need proof? Look up Hasson and Wong, or Feller Medical and look at their work. Often times they use consultants. If you take the time to research these two clinics, I think you'll see what I mean!

 

In closing...

 

Readers...don't be deceived. Some of the doctors listed here have been rejected by other communities NOT because they aren't willing to pay a fee (since they are obviously willing to pay a fee at the hairlossdoctorlist), but because their work is substandard and can't compete with other more qualified physicians.

 

I share this all with you because I want to see patients make educated decisions and think wisely before they just believe the hype from bitter doctors who didn't make the cut.

 

Bill

Proud PATIENT AND MEMBER of the Hair Transplant Network. To date I have NOT been paid for any information, service, or postings I've done in ANY community.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bill

Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up.

Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

Originally posted by the B spot:

Oh so Goertz is in the top 3!!!!!!!!!

 

Jesus Christ he must be paying you a FORTUNE!!!!

 

Either that or he hired a really good hypnotist!!!!

 

Anyway, it's been fun, but there are MANY docs better than the doc you chose, but I am glad that you are happy with your results.

 

In the end, that is all that matters.. and regardless of how misinformed or malcontented you are, your still a balding brother and for that I am happy.

 

Later,

J

Again, your opinion means absolutely sh@t to me and probably about the same to many others. Goertz is at the top of his game. And I wish he was paying me a fortune. I would probably be doing something more meaningful than debating "opinions" with someone who doesn't even know my doctor, has never met him and certainly knows very little about the field.

By the way, my name is not Jesus Christ.

Anyway, as you stated, we are "balding brothers", and for that I am happy you enjoy your results also. By the way, Shapiro is actually a great doctor. I compliment him as well... he could be one of those in the top 3, based upon the results I have seen of his patients.

Best Wishes

Originally posted by Jotronic:

Wowzers!

 

I'm off on my merry way today to help a friend with a network cable run and I come back this evening to learn that I'm making thousands of dollars from several docs. Where is this bank account??? I want in!!!!

 

Now to the serious post.

 

Perfectfew/Dr. Goertz,

 

After reading your misguided diatribe I have suspicions about your identity. I think Pat should run an IP search to see if your are connecting through an ISP in the greater Seattle/Bellevue area. After registering here a few months ago I would think it to be blatantly obvious that Pat is the publisher of this website and not me. Furthermore your disingenuous response to Gorpy stating that you are merely mistaken about me is insulting in the least therefore I am asking you for a sincere apology. After such an effort to discredit me (even mistakenly) that would warrant the development of carpal tunnel syndrome I would think this to be an easy task.

 

I won't go into why I'm not a "consultant" with the implication of being no better than the stereotypical used car salesman. My record stands strong as being a patient that finally got what he always wanted after nine years of misery and has gone on to help others as a profession. Life could NOT be better.

Please run an IP lookup of me. I am not now, nor have I ever been Dr. Goertz. I have suspicions about your identity (Jotronic/Pat/Hasson & Wong et al). By the way, I live in Gold Bar, Washington. My surgery was performed by Dr. Goertz in Bellevue, WA. He did an incredible job.

My apology to you: I am sorry for mistaking your identity. You seem to post here so much, I wonder about your identity. I'll be happy to prove mine. How about you? If you are not getting paid, I'm sorry. It really sucks to not be paid to be a schill for Pat's web site. I am sorry you are not sharing in the HUGE PROFITS he is making. I am happy that life for you is good. I once had no hair. Now I have lots, and it has completely changed my life. My results are great and I finally got what I want. I never had the "misery" of going to a bogus physician because I did TONS of research and didn't rely on just the anonymous opinions of people who post here.

Best Wishes

Originally posted by the B spot:

By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

Well, I no longer have to worry about people taking you seriously anymore.

Any shred of weight people were giving your posts have now been tossed away.

Bobby Limmer is a SOLID doc..... that is it.

Well respected? Sure.

Pretty good at what he does... absolutely.

A doc I don't mind recommending to people who are unwilling to travel? Sure.

Top 3? Your out of your f'ing mind.

J

I never said Bobby Limmer was in the top 3 numbnuts. Read my post carefully. I said my doctor is a personal friend of Limmer's. My doctor is definitely in the top 3. Do your homework, because "Your out of your f'ing mind". Bobby Limmer did not do my transplant, so I wouldn't have enough information to recommend him. I do know that he has contributed a HUGE amount of information to this field. Unlike others who CLAIM this (Bosley et al). If it wasn't for Limmer, neither you or I would even be posting to this forum because there would be no doctors to debate. They would all be installing plugs and the field would be in the "dark ages".

Originally posted by the B spot:

Yep, pretty much what I thought.

 

The ISHRS is an organization that meets and debates hair transplantation.

 

In fact, the only difference between the ISHRS and the Coalition is that the ISHRS accepts ANYONE who can afford the dues.

 

The ISHRS provides benefits to patients and physicians. Thats the difference. OBTW - How much do they charge? How are the dues taken care of? BIG DIFFERENCE

 

Now I like how you skipped over my posts about the Limmers....nice.

 

In addition, an opinion, is just that, opinion.

 

Bobby Limmer may have invented follicular unit transplantation, but that is about where he left it.

 

After his "invention" and the unwillingness to allow his TECHS to transplant over 40 fu's cm/2, I guess he pretty much got passed up, huh?

 

Why don't you just admit what this is?

 

Funny, Pat doesn't seem to think so. He recommends him, otherwise why would he take his money could it be Pat disagrees with his own "standards". By the way, don't bad mouth Limmer. His is incredible in his field and what he has contributed. He doesn't need to transplant anymore.

 

Victor Hasson, Jerry Wong and Ron Shapiro have left the entire field in the dust, and that hurts a little doesn't it?

 

You see, when a Doctor possesses strength of character, he or she is willing to take on any challenge and willingly accepts questions/criticism from medical and non-medical people equally, and can respond without rancor.

 

So when you say Bobby Limmer's opinion matters far more than mine--- you expose yourself and those you support for what they are-- the "good old boys club"

 

I don't know Bobby Limmer, and I'm not part of the "good old boys club". I don't get paid to tell the truth here. H & W are just physicians. What have they contributed? I consulted there and didn't like the results that I saw. I didn't like the phony sales pitches I was seeing here by there "consultants" (paid sales people). As a satisfied patient with great results, I will recommend my doctor free of charge! I don't need $16000 per year to do it.

 

This is the information age buddy, and I daresay that people exist online WHO ARE NOT DOCTORS whose opinion would carry more weight

with HAIRLOSS SUFFERERS than Limmer's ever did or will.

 

That is the power of the internet.

And your point is? Paid "consultants" and paid "recommendations" are not real opinions and they carry very little weight when people discover THE TRUTH.

 

Instead of using it to help and support what we do here, you wish to go back to the dark ages of hair transplantation.

 

It is not going to happen--- if one of your pet docs F's up or doesn't cut the mustard, people need to know about it and discuss and debate it.

 

BTW, you seem to know a lot about who is paying what and why doctors feel the way they do.

 

Yes I do. I did my research. I am not now, nor have I ever been in the "dark ages of hair transplantation". My doctor cut the mustard nicely, thank you. Before you say anything about a doctor, why not talk to him in person? Why not VISIT HIS CLINIC. Pat recommends many physicians that he has never met. His "standards" are bunk. He is not telling people the truth.

 

Are you being paid to post online?

 

Nope. See the difference?

 

Oh, and for the record, I do ALL of my work for free.

Great!

my JOB is to make sure that my fellow balding suffering brothers get help and advice that enables them to choose a great doc, Coalition, Recommended or otherwise.

 

Me too. I want people to find out that sometimes they are being duped. Much like what is happening here.

 

Every day I save someone from going to a butcher, is a GREAT day for me.

So you see, perhaps my opinion matters a bit more than you think.

 

Good for you. I am sure you research all of your physicians by visiting there clinic, talking with their patients and witnessing the results. Or maybe you are just talking out of the side of your arse.

 

He wasn't just dropped from the site.

Pat specifically made bogus statements about him being "substandard" to me. That is what keyed me in. I search through historical documents on the Internet to discover the truth. Pat bad-mouthed him because he wouldn't pay.

He was not buying electricity. He was paying for being listed. Dropping him from the list is ok. Telling people he is substandard is a bold-faced LIE.

By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

Originally posted by PerfectFew:

Originally posted by the B spot:

Perfect Few-- what is the nature of your relationship with the website in question?

 

I am a patient recipient of follicular hair transplant.

In addition, there is no costs involved in running such a website?

 

No hosting fees?

 

What if the site goes down?

 

Who is moderating the site?

 

The costs for running a web site are extremely cheap. I can show you at least 100 hosting companies that will host a site for less than $100 per month. If the site goes down, you reboot the server. Moderation of the site is done by the site owner.

Your logic is faulty because you believe that Pat making a few bucks in a capitalist market is somehow wrong.

 

I think it is great when HONEST people make a few bucks.

Are Dr.'s Limmer, Cooley, Nusbaum or Harris handing out free transplants?

No. Is there anything wrong with that? No.

Now the problem I have with you is that your spouting about patient care and all of this other garbage, when the site you are associated is completely FLAWED in it's membership requirements.

As far as membership dues, what about the ISHRS?

 

The ISHRS is the only reputable HT organization in the world. Ask all of the doctors in Pat's "recommendation" and "coalition" why they are all members.

Oh, but that group is made up of doctors right?

 

So it must be perfect right?

 

Yes, doctors. Nope, not perfect.

The power of the written word and a vehicle to display it are very terrifying to those who can no longer keep up, isn't it?

 

That means nothing to me. I am using the Internet to discuss this right now. It is neither terrifying, nor are the words that I read. I can keep up just fine, thank you.

I reiterate, no problem with those who do not wish to seek Coalition membership.

 

However, state the truth for what it is--- Limmer has hardly benefitted from this site, Nusbaum is new, Cooley has benefitted, and Harris is an FUE afterthought as this point.

Dow Stough is stuck reading his long list of "accomplishments" that he forgets that times change and people expect more these days.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. Bobby Limmer invented follicular unit transplant. His opinion matters far more than yours.

By the way, you seem to know so much about how those doctors have benefitted. Are you being paid to post here? Let me know please.

Weinstein and Rousso?

Goertz?

 

I am not getting paid to post here. I am doing it because this site is not being true to its readers.

Who could look at the work these doctors do and associate with them?

 

I can tell you that Pat hasn't looked at Goertz' work. I have. It is incredible, which is why he has one of the best practices in the world.

Could you honestly refer a patient to them in good conscience?

 

I have referred multiple people to visit with Goertz and I didn't get paid a dime for it. I will not refer to the other two because I don't know them.

Why does that matter?

 

Because he is not disclosing the truth. I did.

If you have a problem with non-doctors, why don't you visit the Limmers?

 

Neither one of the actually do any transplanting anymore.

 

What does that have to do with anything?

They draw lines and remove tissue on patients and then supervise their "stick and place" drones completing the process of transplantation.

 

At 3 per graft and 2 patients a day, you gotta speed it up right?

 

Trained technicians should be placing the grafts. Most doctors (including many recommended by Pat) do not place the grafts themselves.

Oh, but it isn't about money.......

 

You don't know what your talking about.

Yes I do. Come see for yourself.

Originally posted by the B spot:

Perfect Few-- what is the nature of your relationship with the website in question?

 

I am a patient recipient of follicular hair transplant.

In addition, there is no costs involved in running such a website?

 

No hosting fees?

 

What if the site goes down?

 

Who is moderating the site?

 

The costs for running a web site are extremely cheap. I can show you at least 100 hosting companies that will host a site for less than $100 per month. If the site goes down, you reboot the server. Moderation of the site is done by the site owner.

Your logic is faulty because you believe that Pat making a few bucks in a capitalist market is somehow wrong.

 

I think it is great when HONEST people make a few bucks.

Are Dr.'s Limmer, Cooley, Nusbaum or Harris handing out free transplants?

No. Is there anything wrong with that? No.

Now the problem I have with you is that your spouting about patient care and all of this other garbage, when the site you are associated is completely FLAWED in it's membership requirements.

As far as membership dues, what about the ISHRS?

 

The ISHRS is the only reputable HT organization in the world. Ask all of the doctors in Pat's "recommendation" and "coalition" why they are all members.

Oh, but that group is made up of doctors right?

 

So it must be perfect right?

 

Yes, doctors. Nope, not perfect.

The power of the written word and a vehicle to display it are very terrifying to those who can no longer keep up, isn't it?

 

That means nothing to me. I am using the Internet to discuss this right now. It is neither terrifying, nor are the words that I read. I can keep up just fine, thank you.

I reiterate, no problem with those who do not wish to seek Coalition membership.

 

However, state the truth for what it is--- Limmer has hardly benefitted from this site, Nusbaum is new, Cooley has benefitted, and Harris is an FUE afterthought as this point.

Dow Stough is stuck reading his long list of "accomplishments" that he forgets that times change and people expect more these days.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. Bobby Limmer invented follicular unit transplant. His opinion matters far more than yours.

By the way, you seem to know so much about how those doctors have benefitted. Are you being paid to post here? Let me know please.

Weinstein and Rousso?

Goertz?

Who could look at the work these doctors do and associate with them?

Could you honestly refer a patient to them in good conscience?

Bernstein is a good doc, except he hides under "conservative" and charges so much money to do anything, he is a waste of time.

Now, I read in one of your self-righteous posts where you state that Pat is not a doctor and neither are any of the members.

Why does that matter?

If you have a problem with non-doctors, why don't you visit the Limmers?

Neither one of the actually do any transplanting anymore.

They draw lines and remove tissue on patients and then supervise their "stick and place" drones completing the process of transplantation.

At 3 per graft and 2 patients a day, you gotta speed it up right?

Oh, but it isn't about money.......

You don't know what your talking about.

Hi Bill:

I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view?

By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told.

I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth.

You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

Hi Bill:

I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view?

By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told.

I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth.

You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

Originally posted by Gorpy:

Perfect,

While I always enjoy seeing a variety of opinions, I want to clarify something you seem to be confused about. Jotronic is a paid employee of Hasson & Wong and yes, he does advertise and promoted them (on this site and others). But he is not a recipient of pay from this site. Pat is the owner of this site, not Jotronic. Pat is the one who makes money off of this site.

Thanks for the clarification. I am mistaken. I guess my comments should be directed towards Pat.

Jotronic posts so much here that I naturally assumed he was paid for it (almost 1000 posts). My mistake.

Originally posted by Jotronic:

would have you believe that even though Pat, Spencer and Farrel are literally begging them to join their organizations they do not only because they do not wish to pay any "outrageous" fees thus explaining away their lack of participation in any forums. What they are not telling you is that they either applied and were turned down or were members at one time and got the boot.

 

Tell the truth Jotronic. They refuse to pay your THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. Why don't you just tell people how much you charge to be a member of the "elite"?

What better truth in advertising is there than showing your great results and having patients post their experiences? What better truth than having independent organizations helping patients to match up with docs that deliver? What better truth is there than making your clinic transparent? The complaint above includes mention of memberhip fees to be included on lists yet they themselves also charge a fee... Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed.

 

How much do you charge Jotronic? Please tell your members!!! I know the answer and I am disgusted that you are not telling them the truth!

6. Ethical Standards: Hair Loss Doctor List will maintain high ethical standards and will not tolerate unethical behavior in the Forum. For example blogging or posting by paid employees or independent contractors of a hair transplant physician/practice which is been prevalent on other sites and is highly unethical and will not be tolerated here.

 

I'd like to know what the difference is between posting by consultants and posting by doctors. This is saying that most of YOU, the participants in this and other forums, are actually employees in disguise. Why? Because you are passionate about your results and the clinic that gave them to you.

 

The difference is that by using schills to pretend, you are not getting the truth. Consultants = sales people. This site allows and supports this phony tactic. PEOPLE PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!

Here are a couple of the criteria listed for membership.

 

1.) Member must be a member in good standing of the ISHRS for a minimum of 3 years.

 

Why? What influence could this have?

 

That is the only reputable hair transplant association in the world. Doctors there are peer reviewed by each other and actually discuss science and reality. They don't extort.

In summary, what this site is doing is trying to bypass accountability

 

Nope. Just trying to bypass extortion.

a few other "independent" sites dominated by YOU the patients

 

When you start sharing the THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS YOUR RECIEVE for promoting doctors with your members, you can call this forum "independent".

It was because of CONSULTANT, not because of what a doctor told me because it was a doctor that got me into hair loss trouble to begin with.

 

Understand that this does not affect me in a professional manner. It does affect me in a personal manner and I feel it is important for you guys to know what some doctors really think about being transparent to you, the public.

Jotronic - this affects your paycheck. The days of extorting ethical physicians are numbered. The days of promoting unethical doctors and practices is numbered.

Please tell people how much money you charge each "elite" doctor on your site. TRUTH IN ADVERTISING!!!

Originally posted by Pat - Publisher of this Community:

As the previous posts make clear, the members of this forum know the score and easily see this Hair Club for Doctors for what it is - a desperate attempt to mimic this community minus any real standards or accountability. It was not created to serve patients but rather to disempower them.

 

Many doctors fear the control that this community has over livelihoods.

 

Not true. Most reputable physicians are abandoning this site due to the facade of advocacy it claims to be. When Jotronic's paycheck gets dwindled to nothing, then the real voices of patients will come out.

Many leading physicians get between 1/3 to 1/2 of all their new patients from this community. I can understand their fear of being removed. Perhaps they feel they will be able to huddle together in a group that has no standards or accountability.

 

That is a bogus fact with no basis in reality. Very few reputable physicians want to be associated with this site, and are taking measures to get out of being extorted.

So in addition to having no visibility the Hair Loss Doctor List of good old boys has no credibility.

 

Ask the people who invented the follicular unigraft hair transplant if that is true. Credibility comes from real doctors, not paid schills.

Posting photos of true world class results for physicians who aren't in their club would make this point. Then just in case this Hair Club for Doctors buys enough click through ads to attract visitors they'll know what real results look like.

 

You will find only reputable, ethical physicians on the other site. The number is growing, and Jotronics paycheck will show it. Actually having real criteria for being judged reputable is what is important. Not paying extortion.

I don't see such posts as support for this site or its forum.

 

Why support extortion?

standards for inclusion on the Hair Transplant Network

 

"standards for inclusion on this "network" = $$$$$$$$$ THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!!!

Hasson, Wong, Feller, Shapiro, Rahal, Epstien etc?

 

I visited Hasson and Wong & Shapiro for a consultation. ***EXCEPT FOR SHAPIRO*** Their results are substandard. I suggest you go see their work, then go see others. Don't take the word of this forum. All of those doctors pay THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to get promoted here. Don't be had. Please, I beg you to go do your own homework.

P.S. When I get time I'll share with this community how Dr. Dow Stough and Dr. Tony Mangubaut (former President of the ISHRS and creator of a device that cuts all grafts with one hammer blow by driving dozens of razor blades into a strip of donor tissue) attempted to ambush me and Farrell Manne (publisher of Hair Loss Help) during a physicians meeting about the Internet and its dangers. This new site is only a chapter in a long sad saga of doctors fighting the inevitable process of patient's critiquing them.

Yes, like doctors who invented it, perform great work and charge less. The critics on this site are PAID TO ENDORSE THE OTHER DOCTORS!!! DON'T BE FOOLED. Please do your own homework!!!!!!

Obviously, fear is what is motivating such a site.

Not true. Reputable physicians are trying to get out of paying THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to Jotronic to become "fit". In my opinion, promoting doctors by taking their money and pretending to be an advocate is a scam. Jotronic will likely delete this post, but if I can save one person from taking bogus advice, I have done my part.

People,

I am sure that this post will get deleted, because that is how this site operates. True opinions are not welcome, but $$$ is.

At one point in my life I visited this forum to learn about hair transplants and to find a good doctor. The doctors recommended to me at that time were not truly the best.

After much research and some behind the scenes investigation, I found out that you are basically just "recommending" doctors based upon the THOUSANDS of dollars that you get paid by them. I found this out by speaking with very good hair transplant physicians. Some of them even use their own staff to post in the forums and pretend to be patients.

Make no mistake about it people. Jotronic is MAKING LARGE SUMS OF MONEY FROM DOCTORS TO PROMOTE THEM. There is nothing more unethical than to call yourself an advocate, then charge money for advertising and promote only those that you see as "fit" (those who pay your fees).

All of the reputable physicians in the industry have taken notice. This site does very little for the ethics of the industry. It lines pockets of those who are unethical.

I have the proof to back this up. Anyone who wants to see the reality can contact me anytime. If you really want to find a decent surgeon, GO VISIT THEM FOR A FREE CONSULTATION. It is simple. See their work. Talk to their patients. ASK REAL DOCTORS ABOUT THE SCIENCE. Then, form your own opinion.