100Rings

7 hours ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

The video seems like it's by the same person as who wrote the article you referenced. Lots of 'this happened, we don't know why' and then jumps to more unsubstantiated conclusions and half baked theories.

To ask again, what is your goal with this? You seem very convinced by the videos and articles. So now what? 

 

I'm not understanding the bias here. Why is it unsubstantiated when there is studies backing him up and half baked when valid logic is being used? Literally what is the problem here?

27 minutes ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

Ok. Now look at patients who have had no loss since their transplant more than 10 years ago. It seems like you've looking for information that supports your theory rather than looking at the entire body of evidence.

Did you even watch the video? This point is addressed. Also no I have not used botox as cost is an issue at the moment.

9 hours ago, mr_peanutbutter said:

what latest post

 

care to explicitly post the part which would adress my point

 

im curious

Just go to my profile and scroll to the latest thread I made under my activity. I bring up the fact that women develop pattern hairloss when taking AIs. Why it develops in the male pattern could likely be due to the fact that women have an overabundance of aromatase in the frontal scalp whereas men do not. So when AIs take effect, it promarily effects those areas first, forming the familiar norwood patern. Granted this is just a theory but it makes sense.

8 hours ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

I guess what we really need to do is transplant a hair from the hairline and another from the back of the head of a 16 year old into the traditionally safe donor area and see if the hairline graft miniaturises over time.

give this a watch

2 hours ago, BeHappy said:

If it was tension then how did I have enough laxity to do 5 scalp reductions and numerous FUTs? If it's tension then you would see just as many females losing their hair the same way men do. If it was tension then you would see plenty of kids losing all their hair. If someone starts losing his hair in his 40s did the tension just suddenly occur? I could go on and on about how the tension theory makes no sense whatsoever.

Both USA presidential candidates (Joe Biden and Donald Trump) had hair transplants 35 to 50 years ago. Their transplanted hair is still growing. Biden had a touchup or two, but that was to fix some ugly plugginess from a 1970s transplant and even that touchup was about 15 years ago now I think. 

1. The muscle is tense. Not the dermis. Unless you had surgery done on your galea, this is a non-point.

2. Women lose their hair due to hormonal shifts and the same is heavily implied for men. For men, this hormonal shift is mediated by tension. For women, it is mediated by menopause. Two different causes occurring at two different rates of frequency for completely different reasons. Same underlying change pushed forward by totally different mechanics.

3. No you wouldn't. The tension is not constantly at the same level at all ages or even at all norwood stages. And why are you assuming kids would bald with little to no DHT present in the scalp? You do understand that without sexual maturation there can be no threat of excess DHT? Are you aware of what the muscle tension theory even posits?

4. DHT upregulation via oxygen restriction would be a gradual occurrence, not a sudden snap. Tension gradually restricts blood-oxygen from getting to the scalp which then downregulates estradiol and upregulates DHT. The tension isn't a static, unchanging force.

5. Speculating on presidents (one of which is nearly bald all over the top of his head where he got transplanted) without knowing their personal regiment or hair loss stack is a complete waste of time. Lastly, consider the following: https://perfecthairhealth.com/hair-transplants-debunk-scalp-tension-hair-loss/

Answer honestly; how much research have you done on scalp tension as a whole? Because from the way you speak, it seems to me you don't really understand the mechanics of it.

On 9/3/2023 at 3:04 AM, mr_peanutbutter said:

women who get treated with ai for breastcancer develop hairloss in the male pattern baldness way (and not in the diffuse ludwig scale anymore which is normally common for women who have hairloss)

 

“Figure 1. (a and b) Recession of the frontal and parietal hairlines and bitemporal gulfs recession observed by Global photo; (c)miniaturization of follicles in the fronto-temporal area, observed by videodermatoscopic examination,which is not present in FAGA; (d) behind the frontal region, normal hair density and normal diameter of hair, evidenced by videodermatoscopic examination.“

 

how does scalp tension theory explains that?

Read my latest post for the answer.

8 minutes ago, Gatsby said:

It's still just a theory. Rosemary oil is equally valid as a cure for MPB because it too is a theory.

uh, never said it wasn't a theory? has nothing to do with anything.

Edit: also this is frankly a stupid statement as it implies all theories are equivalent in validity which is hilariously wrong.

On 9/4/2023 at 10:20 PM, GoliGoliGoli said:

What exactly do you mean by all follicles of the head are genetically identical? That doesn't ring true. Are you just saying no gene or cluster of genes has been found that would make the safe zone hairs different? If so I'd say absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

If you don't mind please elaborate on your mechanical stress/skull expansion thoughts. 

Just now, 100Rings said:

read my latest post

5 minutes ago, Gatsby said:

It's biological not muscular.

read my latest post

Part 1: The Evidence

While the behavior of estrogenic hormones are well documented in female pattern hair loss, their influence in the male pattern hair loss process is not as documented or emphasized within the academic literature. Therefore, I’d like to start things off by highlighting a bit of background on the functions of aromatase, as well as its sister compound estradiol, on pattern hair loss as a whole. I’ve also included some studies entailing what we know about scalp tension thus far.

[Scalp Tension]
1. Data proves that the areas of muscular tension are the same exact areas of hair loss, suggesting that mechanical stress plays a deterministic role in the formation of the signature ‘Norwood’ balding pattern by triggering androgen activity (i.e. DHT overproduction
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4639964]

2. It is strongly implied that the signature inflammation seen in male pattern hair loss is mediated by tension. This inflammation is understood as the main causes for TGFB1 overexpression and DHT upregulation, both of which appear to be contributing factors to collagen buildup and fibrosis.[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987717310411]

3. In 1947, Researcher Moses Wharton Young demonstrated that monkeys, after having their scalps sutured to replicate the scalp tension seen in male humans, began to demonstrate a balding pattern remarkably similar to that which we see in male pattern hair loss.
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0967772015622628?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.2#bibr12-0967772015622628]

[Aromatase and Estradiol]
4. In a study involving pre and postmenopausal women with female pattern hair loss, finasteride was proven to cause a relative estradiol excess due to the reduction of DHT resulting in hair regrowth at rates of statistical significance.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5419033]

5. Further studies also confirmed that women who took aromatase suppressants (the estrogenic equivalent of 5AR suppressants) experienced accelerated hair loss, likely due to an unmitigated conversion of T into DHT in the absence of normal levels of aromatase
[https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1034/j.1600-0625.2002.110413.x]

6. This paper notes that aromatase appears to serve a regulatory role with DHT, both limiting and regulating its production. This makes sense when considering both aromatase and 5AR feed off testosterone to create estradiol and DHT, strongly implying a hormonal balancing act is at play.
[https://www.jidonline.org/article/S0022-202X(15)42988-4/pdf]

7. A biological man with MPHL took oral estradiol and spironolactone for 6 months and regrew statistically significant amounts of hair.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367483]

8. A study comparing the results of PRP injections treated with estradiol and those untreated with estradiol concluded that the estradiol treated injections were superior in efficacy to a staggering degree (those treated with estradiol-PRP at the 1 month mark showed results superior to those treated with just pure PRP at the 12 month mark)
[https://academic.oup.com/asj/article/40/11/NP613/5854761?login=false]

9. This paper notes that aromatase and the subsequent production of estradiol mitigates and regulates the production of scalp tissue T conversion into DHT by acting as an adjacent androgenic process. Again, aromatase and 5AR appear to feed off of scalp T at rates that achieve a sort of hormonal equilibrium.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4171668]

10. This paper speaks on the pathogenesis of FPHL stating that the markedly lesser severity of FPHL when compared to MPHL is more than likely due to the significantly higher levels of estradiol in female balding scalp areas since estradiol has a protective effect against hair loss in the vast majority of cases. It is theorized that the estradiol-DHT imbalance is less severe in women than it is in men
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769411]

11. Two teenage boys developed female pattern hair loss after taking aromatase inhibitors. They had no medical history of hair loss prior to the aromatase inhibition.
[https://sci-hub.et-fine.com/10.1111/pde.14339]

Part 2: The Role of Scalp Tension

With a bit of context provided by the data, we can now discuss the muscle tension theory directly. As the theory goes, the scalps of men suffering from MPHL are observed to be under chronic, low level and perpetual tension sourced in the galea aponeurotica. This tension pinches off vital pathways for blood flow, creating a bloodless and, most importantly, hypoxic scalp environment. Due to this hypoxia, aromatase, the counterbalancing force against 5AR, cannot properly convert T into estradiol because estradiol is an oxygen dependent compound and the tension is limiting blood flow and thus sufficient oxygen supply. Less blood flow means less oxygen; less oxygen means less estradiol. This results in the downregulation of estradiol and the upregulation of DHT since 5AR now has unmitigated access to T, This dramatic upregulation of DHT occurs for two reasons:

Aromatase cannot convert T into estradiol without at least a mole of oxygen.

Testosterone has been shown to favor conversion into DHT when in hypoxic environments. (i.e. upregulation)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987717310411][https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/1996/05000/TranscutaneousPo2of_the_Scalp_in_Male_Pattern.3.aspx]

Part 3: How does Botulinum Toxin Fit Into All of This?

Botulinum toxin thus works to repair the hormonal imbalance by reintroducing oxygen via blood flow back into the scalp. With proper oxygen levels restored, the counterbalancing effect of estradiol is brought back into play; Not only is 5AR forced to share scalp T with aromatase resulting in less DHT on average, estradiol’s anagen elongating effects also take effect, further strengthening the balance between the two forces. This conclusion is reached by several research groups given their findings of significantly low blood-oxygen levels inherent to the scalps of men with MPB, the affinity T has for conversion to DHT in hypoxic tissue and the very positive effect estradiol has on hair growth in both men and women in combination with estradiol's oxygen dependent nature.
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/14qhsSXZ0kVeTPtXGNhPpRYavwt22hFIR/view?usp=sharing]

We probably all agree that botulinum toxin has no direct effect on androgens. In other words, Botox itself does not fight against MPHL on a direct, androgenic level. However, research heavily suggests, 5AR works in tandem with aromatase to achieve an equilibrium between the DHT and estradiol in the scalp. When this balance is upset and estradiol production becomes restricted due to hypoxic scalp conditions triggered by galea tension, DHT upregulation begins; 5AR now has uninhibited access to all T in the scalp, competing with no adjacent T conversion processes. However, when botulinum toxin is administered to the galea, tension is released, blood flow is increased and oxygen levels are rejuvenated which then leads to higher levels of estradiol, lengthening of the anagen phase of the hair cycle and downregulation of DHT, achieving a hormonal equilibrium more conducive to hair growth rather than hair loss.

Part 4: OK So The Theory Is Plausible…But What If It's True?

The scalp muscle tension theory, if confirmed beyond all doubt as true, would answer why the scalp's area of tension, hypoxia DHT upregulation and the balding pattern itself are all one in the same. It would also account for DHT/5AR upregulation via T’s favoring of converting to DHT in hypoxic scalp environments. It would sufficiently address why intramuscular botulinum toxin is so effective, consistently bearing finasteride-esque results and why it cannot be compared to intradermal injections which, without exception, have vastly different results in, hair count, hair growth and even area of effect. The theory, while sorely needing more research, is the furthest thing from invalid. A strong hypothesis is present and it does not contradict any of the existing research on any fundamental levels. It does, however, directly challenge the DHT primacy narrative head on, calling into question if 5AR and DHT are truly the sole or even the most important players in the male pattern hair loss game.

On 9/4/2023 at 10:20 PM, GoliGoliGoli said:

What exactly do you mean by all follicles of the head are genetically identical? That doesn't ring true. Are you just saying no gene or cluster of genes has been found that would make the safe zone hairs different? If so I'd say absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

If you don't mind please elaborate on your mechanical stress/skull expansion thoughts. 

I'm going to make a separate post about my findings, stay tuned

24 minutes ago, general-etwan said:

But the real question is how did it come to be that MPB occurs in the pattern it does. Why are the hairs on the sides and back of the scalp not affected by DHT nearly to the degree as those on top in that ring pattern.

Especially when all follicles on the head are genetically identical. It is ASSUMED that "safe zone" follicales are DHT "immune" simply because they don't miniaturize. There is no hard evidence proving dht immunity theory true. In fact, it is quite the opposite actually.. mechanical stress of the scalp and skull expansion theory are by far the most logical answer given the evidence.

4 hours ago, Turkhair said:

So my hair transplant will fail and I will be bald again? 

Sorry I believe my surgeon over some random on the internet who I don’t know is even educated. He assured me the hair grafts he took were strong and healthy and permanent. 

It's your head bro. Do you. But don't be surprised if things go south in some years.

On 5/1/2022 at 4:06 PM, Blub10 said:

I will post some before and after Photos

 

The Doctor said my Grafts had a good Quality and meds are not needed

 

Furthermore why meds if the donor hair hair is supposed to be DHT resistant?

There is no such thing as "dht resisitant" hairs lol get on fin rn.

2 hours ago, Turkhair said:

How do you explain beard/body hairs transplanted to extremely “tense muscular areas” such as front/temples thrive and live happily ever after? 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8061642

How in the world on a hair loss forum are people still saying transplanted hair doesn't miniaturize is absolutely beyond me 💀💀💀 you are just straight up wrong my boy. Transplanted hairs are susceptible to DHT and to insit otherwise is to remain delusional. Do you even know the science behind MPB to begin with?

1 hour ago, Turkhair said:

It doesn’t explain why hairs taken from safe zone survive till death when transplanted to supposedly “tense muscular areas” like the temples. 

They absolutely don't and I'm shocked that this blatant misinformation is still passed off as common fact. Hairs transplanted to the balding areas minaturize just as any other hair will. The process may take a lifetime or it may take several years. The amount if time it takes varries from man to man but there is no such thing as DHT "immune" hair follicles. That literally does not exist whatsoever.

7 hours ago, mr_peanutbutter said:

https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)37327-2/pdf

 

women who get treated with ai for breastcancer develop hairloss in the male pattern baldness way (and not in the diffuse ludwig scale anymore which is normally common for women who have hairloss)

 

“Figure 1. (a and b) Recession of the frontal and parietal hairlines and bitemporal gulfs recession observed by Global photo; (c)miniaturization of follicles in the fronto-temporal area, observed by videodermatoscopic examination,which is not present in FAGA; (d) behind the frontal region, normal hair density and normal diameter of hair, evidenced by videodermatoscopic examination.“

 

how does scalp tension theory explains that?

You don't seem to understand what the scalp tension theory actually posits.

It is part of a complex process involving many moving parts, first being tension and its downstream effects; one such effect being the cutting of blood flow which causes inflamation and the upregulation of DHT in response to decrease said inflammation. It could be that this drug induces a similar effects in scalp to mimmick tension while in reality it is the drug causing the inflamation similar to that of muscle tension. Your source does not state nearly enough to completely disprove the muscle tension theory though I will admit it does make the discussion more interesting.

On 5/17/2023 at 1:08 AM, mr_peanutbutter said:

women develop hairloss in the male baldness pattern (within a few weeks) if they take aromatase inhibitors to treat breast cancer 

hairs that get transplanted from balding areas to lets say an arm or an leg will still miniature and fall out eventually

 

how could scalp tension theory could possible explain this

 

Citation for your first and second point?

And your second point can be easily explained by the fact that the follicular bulb has been destroyed by DHT and simply taking that same bulb and inserting it somewhere else isn't going to magically heal it instantly. Of course the hair will still fall out. That's called shed. The same thing happens when taking finasteride. You shed the miniaturized hair and grow a new strand as the follicular bulb repairs. This is Hairloss101. Unless a study has been done and it showed that the transplanted hair did not repair or heal after shed, then the point stands.

On 12/29/2020 at 11:35 AM, UnbaldEagle said:

Guys, let me save you the suspense, I don't think OP is anything more than a shill for a clinic. 2 short praises on some HTs before commencing to his real purpose here. 

Hair Istanbul Clinic - Hair Transplant Turkey Reviews

These reviews, as well as the one concerned in this topic were all written by the same person (= a rep of the clinic). 

Notice the same odd way of phrasing all over again: " Dr. Caymaz opened my hair channels with the Safir Fue blade" (sounds more like a Kundalini session if you ask me), "I recommend to all my friends", "didn't hope too much, but I'm extremely pleased now", etc. Also, CAYMAZ everywhere, to make sure that burns into your retinas well. 

Meh, just a fraud, nothing more.

 

Instantly picked up on it lol

Title says it all. I have no idea who these guys are.

I'm assuming they are a new company or something. I saw someone reviewing their hair care shampoos and products on their channel. They do hair transplants in either Istanbul or Izmir, I cannot tell for sure. The results they sent me in consultation are all under 1 year 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the muscle tension theory, which presents the most complete and convincing argument for hairloss to date.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/why-the-galea-is-the-fundamental-cause-of-male-pattern-balding-androgens-are-secondary.113256/

This pretty much sums everything up

Does Demirsoy have a whatasapp number? It seems he isn't responding to my emails

I heard he went to Hair of Istanbul. Feather in their cap.

26 minutes ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Are you on finasteride? There is someone who had a similar hair loss in the crown and had an HT @Chances101 you may want to check out his thread.

I was on finasteride for 3 or so months in 2019, didn't notice much change because I didn't stick with it long enough I think. I really wanted really crisp hairline and knew that fin wouldn't really give me that because I was already norwood 2 by that point so I dropped it and focused all energy on researching the transplant and saving money. A rash decision as I could have potentially put my crown area in a better position. u live u learn. it's far from too late though so it's not the end of the world. I just need to decide what I want my routine to be. I really prefer Botox over fin even if it is more costly. It's only twice yearly rather than a pill every single day and the results last longer.

Just got in contact with Dr. Demirsoy for a consultation. Waiting for a reply. I was told by Hair of Istanbul that while my hairline could be restored, they did not want to implant grafts into my vertex and crown because, while they were both thinning, the density was still too high and put my existing hair at risk. I'm assuming that the risk is necrosis. I really appreciated their honest opinion but decided to ask Demirsoy for a consultation just for some additional confirmation. HOI remains the only clinic to even say this to me after about a dozen consultations from other clinics. If Demirosy feels differently I may head with him instead. In any case, this is good news in a way as it confirms that no matter the scenario, my required graft count is bound to be extremely low.

I've included pictures of the high priority areas. the area between the crown and vertex feels thin to the touch as well but I'm confident I can use twice yearly botox to hold onto it for a very long time.

Some of the hair surrounding those two 'patches' also feels thin to the touch...again, I think that Botox or finasteride will be enough to fix that though.

he has a YouTube channel, and his results were beyond amazing. ive seen a few youtubers on here that I recognize actually.