palma13

^^^^ quoted for truth.

 

I would pay a million dollars just to have some decent coverage.

I would sell my condo, my car, my life's savings and my piggy bank just to come up with the money, and then I would live on the streets like a homeless person for a few months before I'd find my feet again

Kinda like Louis CK said he would happily trade his situation with a homeless man for his James Dean hair because it wouldn't take long for him to wash up and hit a comedy club lol! lets hope not you or anybody has to go through that. Bottom line is the clinic has to stand behind a failed result. No debate there. I think you willing to wait till Feb 2018 is more than enough patience and by then you will hopefully have a financial solution worked out and new clinic to consider. I would probably consider someone specializing in body hair transplant and mix it with donor hair just to be safe. I prefer a buzzed haircut so BHT may work for me but not everybody else.

With all due respect, I have NEVER seen a 12 month result go from a complete failure to a success in the next year, I consulted with nearly every elite hair transplant surgeon after my first transplant about growth, unanimously all of them told me that 12 months should be enough time to rate your result, now you may continue to see improvements until 2 years, key word is improvements.

 

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this but Dutchie appears to have almost zero growth, even if he had improvements up in to the two year mark I still do not think it would be a success. Now I'm not here to argue with you or have a war with words, this is just what I have personally been told by several elite surgeons. I think Dutchie has been and is being fair to the clinic, 12 months is enough time to gauge your result, from my own experience after 12 months the only changes I saw were hair texture.

 

In my opinion, I don't think Dutchie should rush in to another procedure, but I also don't think he should build his hopes up that he will somehow grow a majority of his grafts in the next year, and it pains me to say this but I don't want to build false hope which is much worse.

Why would we have a war of words? You have been very respectful and thoughtful in your response. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Yes I have never seen a result this weak this late. But have seen dramatic difference between 12 month versus 2 year mark in patients who did have successful HTs. Btw, 2 years is still too much IMO to be sure about a failure. I would consider 12 month mark to be adequate...then at that point look for an amicable solution and over the next 3-4 months get ready for a second HT.

I am glad we talk about these failed results because obviously the HT surgeon community doesn't discuss this openly. Wish we knew more about failed results beyond just the obvious like poor post-op care or anecdotal reasons like scalp inflammation, under-trained technicians involved in the surgery.

What do you mean by biopsies? Do you think that it didnt grow because of inflammatory under the skin?

Well ya I mean just to eliminate possibilities. I read in another thread someone said the doctor suggested that since growth had failed for that patient too.

These failures give me nightmares...only hope then is a doctor who stands behind their work.

I keep seeing messages popping up everywhere though saying that everyone should book with him as he is one of the best in the world...

Best in the world? Who says that? Even if he was the best doctor in the world he can have a failure. What separates a bad doctor from a good one is how they respond when things go badly not by the result

You can congratulate yourself, it's not often that I log in to make a reply.

 

'With respect', I gotta say, that is one of the dumbest things I've read on here in a while. First- you're thinking WAY too far ahead. The idea that his hair magically starts growing almost 2 years post op is complete non-sense. Secondly, assuming they repair him, please explain how he'd be able to differentiate between first and second transplant? Lastly, you really think dutchie cares about that money? Him sitting in limbo after have already given up a year of his life with the anticipation of a new mane is much harder than what some of you recognize. I'm willing to bet he'd pay an additional 17k to have a decent head of hair and to have this whole thing behind him.

Sorry didn't mean to send you into labor with my post. I am glad you came out to reply because I love serving bowls of humility. Alright lets go. You think the repaired hair would grow back at the same time schedule as the original hair or magically just start growing at the exact same time as repaired transplant? Even with overlap I would expect two distinct periods of growth. This admittedly I am ignorant about but can you not figure out what density the grafts were placed with the first time and second time and then once ample time has gone you should be able to assess final hair density and if it is over 90% (randomly sampled areas) based on total grafts placed then we know all that needed was time and Dutchie's is a happy camper. If not then its a definitive failure. But what I actually meant was once you know you are going to have another shot at a transplant...you would have to wait a few more months. You've gone your whole life so far with a bald head...it won't kill you now? I am sure Dutchie's first priority would be to try to figure out what may have caused the failure, then rectify the financial investment and finally search for a new surgeon...who are going to have waitlists. No need to rush into a second HT and sacrifice the last of your donor hair. During all this enough time will have passed...I am not suggesting an eternal wait.

Who is talking about whether Dutchie cares/doesn't care about 17k? That didn't come up in my post because any reasonable adult...you know who earns an income and pays the bills does care about money. I didn't know DHT caused blindness to reality as well? So ya I am sure he would be willing to shell out the cash but this is not a practice we should encourage on this forum since there are members, including myself, who would not be able to make a second financial investment for an HT following a first failure.

Congratulate myself for what? A random dude on the internet decided to comment on my post. Nobody is impressed by whatever grandeur you are disillusioned by.

Thanks. You guys (and girls) on this forum have been a tremendous support

 

 

I dont know, but one thing I do know for sure is I dont have any skin diseases or auto-immune disorders that might interfere with a transplant.

 

I just had a physical done last month and everything was in top shape except for my cholesterol which was a tiny bit too high. So now I'm taking garlic and guggulipid to see if I can bring it down somewhat

With respect I don't think you can just eyeball all inflammatory conditions in a simple physical exam. Thats why people suggest biopsies and my guess is so will Dr Hasson.

Btw, if they perform corrective surgery or give you refund and then you start growing hair later because say you were just unlucky to see growth very late...will you come back and report and give the money back or pay for the 'corrective' surgery to H & W? Should be a two way street no?

Thank you all for the responses. If I don't end up having growth, should I get another surgery? Or do some people just now grow?

 

I have to admit I am very frustrated. I can live with a bald spot, but it is really hard to deal with when I spent $12K, had to shave my head, and missed two weeks of work for nothing. I really saved up for this.There are a lot of things I could have done with that money.

If at 12 month point there is less than 90% growth then the doctor should offer the corrective surgery for free at a future date or offer a refund so you can go somewhere else to get the corrective surgery. At least that is what a reputable doctor would do.

If you see no growth till then and the doctor refuses to help you out. Please do come back and tell us who they are and spread the word to every person considering a transplant to avoid the doctor. However, not now obviously because not enough time has passed and tarnishing any doctors reputation this early in the game would just be wrong.

I think Dr Tejinder Bhatti has been repairing a lot of what Dr Dua has screwed up. Dr Bhatti is also capable of using Body hair so for repair I would say he is the best. Also, I really do feel you need to take responsibility and do research. If you just searched on this forum you would have have found cases of Dr Dua and Dr Bhatti. The most important thing before getting an HT is to learn learn learn and then ask ask ask. Rushing into it the best way to guarantee a disaster. You should have asked Dr Dua about how much he would do and how much technicians would do and then compare his involvement to other surgeons.

This is the second terrible result that I have seen this Doctor butcher in the last month. I hope he can be kicked off the recommended list asap.

Dutchie, sorry to see the result so far. It really breaks my heart. I hope you will be able to get to the bottom of why this happened and perhaps find a solution to fix it. We are all rooting for you and hope you will come back and inform us. At least you went to a reputable clinic so won't have to live the rest of your life with the what if question as far as clinics are concerned. Good luck mate!

I would visit a few dermatologists though, perhaps get a scalp biopsy to confirm that there is no underlying inflammatory condition that could have compromised the result. Some peoples' scalps are not amendable to this type of surgery. Best to rule before going through this again. Just some advice.

Is there a list of conditions that might interfere with HTs. I would want to get a simple biopsy before I fork over 1000s for a transplant.

FUT makes these mega session possible. I wonder if he would have seen the same results with FUE.

I am considering dialing down the dose to 1.25 mg for 2 reasons:

1. The effectiveness of Finasteride at higher doses isn't that much better than at lower doses.

2. Prevent possible mental health side effects and/or sexual side effects in the future...I have been looking more into this recently.

A little more context:

I initially started on 1.25 mg (Proscar cut into quarters). I wasn't really seeing much slowing in shedding and losing ground. Although this was probably only 1 year in and also went through multiple sheds because I went on and off at least twice. So, then I spoke to my HT doc (only went for consultation not an HT yet) and he suggested we try to up the dose to 2.5 mg. But, I read recently that you don't see benefits until at least 2 years? So maybe I gave up on the 1.25 mg dose a little too soon. Anyways on the 2.5 mg dose, after a little while, it seems like my hair loss was slowed down. I have been on this dose for 2 years and it has slowed down my hair loss and now seems stable. Thankfully, I haven't experienced any of the sexual side effects, but I might be experiencing anxiety and depression as a result of Finasteride...well I also have had a lot of changes in my life over the last year. Changing careers etc so I have other reasons for my mental health not being in the best shape.

Of course only reason I am asking this question is because I don't want to start losing again...can I try the 1.25 mg dose for say 1-2 months and if I can hold steady I guess I am good?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

I'm sure the doctors on this site would agree that sneezing shouldn't "pop" a graft. You should be fine. Get some rest and take a vacation and lower that stress. Don't move to Kentucky where I live.....we're a nation leader in allergies but my sneezing never caused any graft issues. Best of luck to you.

Really Kentucky is the allergies capital? Oh well at least you have good college basketball. So life isn't totally unfair. j/k I think I would rather not have allergies either. Although I don't think I have allergies because the sneezing sometimes happens randomly or just when I wake up in the morning. Some of the HT docs I mentioned this to seemed indifferent or unsure to the hazards of sneezing. I guess its not a common thing they encounter so I figured patient experiences might be the best way to get some info on this.

Only way this might be possible is if she transplanted hair from areas beyond the donor zone ie hair follicles sensitive to DHT. I mean transplanted hair usually fall out following days after the surgery and if you get growth you are good to go if not then the HT failed. This type of thinning in areas that were especially totally bald before is strange. But its hard to know if hair are falling are transplanted or native hair right? When you start finasteride you do go through a horrible shed. I didn't stop shedding for months and maybe a year after I started fin. So it could be native hair in the transplanted hair shedding as a reaction to fin.

Dr b gave me 900 free grafts in op 2 to re densify and tough up areas of op 1 so I figure he felt I got about 70 percent yield. But really who knows. Did I get 60, did I get 80 who knows. Dr b stands by his work and gaurantees minimum 90 percent yield. We really don't know why the lower yield in op 1 as the op went extremely well . Dr b however wanted to do the biopsy to rule out any potential skin issue. As mentioned above my result came back that my scalp is compatible with lpp which causes inflammation and attacks follicles and kills them. Although I highly doubt I have lpp, dr b recommended the clobetasol shampoo to control inflammation. I have fair skin and although healing from op 1 was great, I Recall my scalp being red for a few months post op and definately likely had prolonged inflammation. Did this inflammation affect growth, had I taken the shampoo after first op would I have got better yield ,,,,who knows. What's done is Done and now just focusing on getting top yield for op 2. It will be interesting if yield is much better now that I will be using the shampoo. I will keep everyone posted.

I need to do more research as I do not know what Ipp is? Is is not possible to check this before getting an HT? I know it might be overkill. But, an HT is an invasive procedure so I wouldn't mind getting a biopsy done ahead of time.

I am also using rogaine on scalp which I started two weeks post op, something I did not do after op 1. And I ordered pilfood hair supplement pills which I know dr Lorenzo highly recommends his patients to use. I'm putting all chances on my side this time, I'm staying positive no negative thoughts this time and I'm confident I'll get good result,

I currently do not use Rogaine, but more than happy to do so post-op. Also willing to consider pilfood. I wonder if topical steroids could have helped lower the inflammation? Did any physician recommend that?

At the end of the day who knows what causes lower yield. But, you have a stand up doc willing to help you out. I know we consider these procedures to address a cosmetic condition (well I consider this a psychologically damaging condition), but either way the humanity of a doctor is just as needed in such procedures as it would be in medically necessary procedures.

This is the scenario that will give me nightmares if/when I get a HT done. I haven't even been thinking about an HT with this particular doctor and already I am having second thoughts...scary. The loss of donor area, money down the drain, depression and worst of all certain members with the well crap happens move on attitude...although I am glad some of the other members did come to the poor guys support and called it what it is. Medical malpractice...suing the doc in India is straight laughable. I have seen failures from docs not on the coveted golden boy surgeon list and their failures aren't this bad...

Finally a word about SIKH PATTERN TRACTION ALOPECIA. I think this might be a unique condition where failure data is not readily available and perhaps the years of traction damages the implantable area that even transplanted hair have a hard time growing. The surgeon should have taken a very very conservative approach not butchered his donor area.

In the end a truly credible doctor offered this man a lifeline. Did Kapil Dua offer any type of compensation or refund?

Thx Harry , the first op was sub par but I did have growth and would be pretty slick bald had I not done anything, I'm confident op 2 will be a success and although I'm a little upset I had to waste precious grafts to repair op 1 , there are worse things in life and all will be good when I get the yield I deserve from op 2.

Did you ever get any numbers on what percent of growth you had from OP 1? I suppose an HT is considered a failure if regrowth is below a certain percentage correct? What was your and the docs opinion on why the results weren't as good as hoped for and what changes you could make for OP 2?

You'd have to be knocking your head around like you were at a metal concert to really hurt them like that.

Can't see how general work stress would kill a graft, but be careful as to not let it ruin your posture to cause potential scar stretching. (Edit, didnt notice this in the FUE section)

Ya the work stress I figured was me being overparanoid, but the sneezing thing scares me a little. No, I plan on sleeping and resting right after the HT so no head banging. Only thing I can find on sneezing from searching is after getting an HT done...for years if you ever sneeze you feel it in every graft implanted. Strange but interesting bit of info I came across.

Hey guys,

I have been wondering about this for a while and never bothered to ask. I sometimes get fits of sneezing like 5-6 in a row per day especially when I wake up. Can the violent contraction of head muscles caused by sneezing result in grafts falling out and HT failing if it were to happen during the HT procedure or right after? I was prescribed nasal steroids a while ago when my doc thought it might be allergies. But I got bad headaches from using it so I stopped. Maybe I will try anti-histamines as well.

I also work a stressful job so probably carry a lot of tension in the head muscles. Should I do scalp massages to help with relaxing the muscles?

Just trying to consider all the factors before flying overseas to spend thousands.

-Jay

Here are some side pics I forgot to include earlier.

I am not good with picking how much temple recession I have experienced or how much I need in that area.

Just added a 'photoshop' (actually Windows Paint) of what it may look like. See previous post.

Oh wow I wish I had more imaginative thinking to have thought of that myself. Its funny the flat hair line look more appealing at first glance even if it is further back because you associate it with a more youthful hairline. The curving one even though its lower still reminds you of a receding hairline. But it probably looks more natural for my age. Of course the Doc would make final determination based on face etc.

I would lower the centre a little but increase the amount of recession as the line drawn looks a little flat/straight.

 

The doctor would have to evaluate your donor capacity on the day which will dictate how agressive to go.

 

I would not place any grafts other than in the hairline and frontal third at this stage. What you have at the moment creates good coverage and I bet is only really noticeable from above.

Thank you so much for your response. That actually makes a lot of sense because as I have been browsing more pics of HTs some of the flat hairlines do look a little unnatural and I am an amateur so that is to be expected. The one you drew looks more like what mine did before I had hairloss of course it was at 1/2-3/4" lower. Since I part my hair on one side which you can kinda see in my pic would also work better with the hairline you drew.

Ya up top the diffuse thinning I guess I will have to just continue fighting with finasteride until it gets worse. Its mostly visible only from the top and now more so since there isn't much up front so at least that will be addressed by the HT. Also, kinda helps I have curly/wavy hair so the thinning areas aren't as obvious.

I am 30 years old. I am getting a hair transplant and have been talking to 3 different very well established doctors. I have been recommended graft numbers from 2000-2600. Just wondering what you guys think so I am posting some pics of where my hair loss stands and where I am planning to put my hairline. Honestly, I would like it lower but I have to consider the future concern of further hairloss and the density all over my scalp is constantly thinning and only hanging on since I am on 2.5 mg Finasteride for over 3 years. I will continue to use it until you know what happens

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I would stick with the fin. Risk of shedding and other bad side effects by changing meds.

Thats a fair point. Isn't the shedding short lasting and reverts back anyways. I have been doing 5 mg Finasteride for almost 4 years and in the beginning there was some shedding. Then it stopped and the loss has been slowed. I have been thinking if I am missing out on the benefits of Dutasteride especially since in the study comparing the two with 416 participants the conclusion I read was

Scalp DHT reduction:

Dutasteride 2.5 mg - 79%

Dutasteride 0.5 mg - 51%

Dutasteride 0.1 mg - 41%

Finasteride 5 mg - 32%

Adverse Effects:

Placebo - 2 subjects

Dutasteride 2.5 mg - 9 subjects

Dutasteride 0.5 mg - 1 subject

Dutasteride 0.1 mg - 2 subjects

Finasteride 5 mg - 3 subjects

Why did Dutasteride 0.5 mg or even 0.1 mg not render 5 mg Finasteride? Clearly the benefits and adverse effects would make the latter a far more inferior option.

For me while on Finasteride I may have experienced gynecomastia but I did put on weight so I don't know if it true gynecomastia. Sex drive is higher. No erection problems. I am 29 years old at NW II going to III. I am quite confused why I shouldn't switch to Dut 0.5 mg?

Cheers,

Jay

I've had a consultation with Dr. Koray Erdogan and I'm really impressed with his work which is why he's the one I'm favoring. My only issue is I feel very nervous travelling to Turkey from Canada based on the recent terrorist attacks in Istanbul. Can anyone give me their experiences on how safe they felt travelling from abroad for their procedure

 

Thanks a lot

You are going to fly there aren't you? More planes probably crash each year than number of major terrorist attacks each year in the civilized world. Its all about odds when deciding how much to worry. I think you need to think about the your HT and how comfortable you feel with that. I am from Canada as well and debating Dr Erdogan, but the mega FUE sessions regardless of Norwood has me debating. What is your quote of grafts and what Norwood are you. The quality of his work is incredible.

What are the main factors behind failures and what are chances of it happening?