hairhairhair456

Thank you. I would say I would never get a tattoo from a place who would do it, there and then.

My feeling is, although I've been looking into this for some time I need more information. More appointments. I wouldn't like to pay a deposit and find my next visit was scheduled as the procedure. There's the colour, shape, density to be decided. I don't make decisions quickly and I want to move at my pace not theirs.

Understood.

Also, to clarify, my point about getting a tattoo without a consultation first was more to say that a competent tattoo artist/technician doesn't necessarily need a consultation to deliver a quality result. Some people want to move slow, others faster. Either way, a competent technician should deliver the same result with or without a consultation... generally speaking.

One thing i will add is that i believe at most clinics, the first treatment session is where you normally spend a lot more time with the practitioner, getting into the details of your specific scalp, and your specific desired result. They will schedule more time for the first treatment session, so that you have plenty of time to try out different shapes and discuss pigment shades with your practitioner before they start the procedure.

I dont think they normally get that deep into things at consultations, but this might vary from company to company.

I mean... honestly i dont think the technician really needs much information, they can generally do whatever needs to be done with anything that comes in. Sort of like if you were going to get a regular tattoo on your arm, you wouldn't need a consultation, you would just walk in and tell them what you want, and they would do it.

So in that sense, i feel like consultations are mostly to put the clients mind at ease, which it doesn't sound like happened here. They should at least have made an effort to put you in a well lit room and take a close look at your head, even if it isn't really necessary for them to do the work. I would imagine that the consultation is somewhat unnecessary from the technicians point of view... they will perform the same treatment whether there was a previous consultation or not.

What do i feel a consultation should include? Well off the top of my head, the representative should answer any questions you have about the treatment or company, discuss what you are hoping to achieve, and possibly let you view a treatment or session in person. Those are the big things.

On top of that, it would be a bonus if they didnt try to rush things, and made an effort to meaningfully examine your head, even if they were only doing it just to make you feel more comfortable with the whole process. Stuff like this goes a long way towards giving a prospective client confidence about the quality of the clinic. Not doing stuff like this causes them to lose confidence, like what we see here.

All that being said, i wouldn't necessarily base your decision on how well the consultation went (although many people do, and it's totally understandable when they do). It could have been an off day for the representative, or maybe they just dont have the people skills to put clients at ease. What's more important is researching their results and talking to past clients. To my knowledge, Vinci is a fairly reputable clinic, but dont take my word, because im not an expert on their company... it's up to you to research their work and confirm that it is up to the standards you require.

Doesn't cost anything to visit another company for a consultation, of course.

:rolleyes:

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/184503-african-american-temporary-scalp-micropigmentation-result-2.html#post2481361

Hairhairhair456- JOIN DATE: September 2016, POSTS: 3

Pffft, hahahhaaa,you went to a ton of work in researching this forum for that post mate....

A ton of work? These posts are literally on the first page of your forum activity. It takes two button clicks to see them... once on your name, and once on posting history. Whew, i need to sit down after all that work.

The truth is that i am making a rather scathing critique of Joe T's smp website on another forum, and ran across your posts while i was researching it here. You were on sort of the same track as me here, except you went off the rails with a bunch of childish insults, which diminishes your message.

.it is almost as if you have something invested in this..... you wouldn't by chance rent a crappy building where you tattoo tiny dots on men's heads a couple of times a month for ridiculously high prices and call what you do "a very specialized medical procedure" and try to pass off tiny scalp dots as a "scientific miracle" now would you???

Ah, so i see your discerning nose has caught the same scent as you did with the guy in that other thread. You're very quick with such things! I mean, you're wrong in both cases, but man are you quick!

I love how anytime someone is criticized on forums like this, the person being criticized invariably shouts 'SHILL!'. Somebody point out your contradictions? 'SHILL!'. Somebody disagree with your opinion? 'SHILL!'. Someone say a treatment looks good? 'SHILL!'. It's as if shouting 'SHILL' magically makes the other persons argument invalid, even if it isn't. How about we all just assume everyone else is a shill, and then we can focus on the merits of the arguments that are made? I mean, they are either valid or they aren't, right?

It's really funny because on the other forum where i am refuting JT's website, the first two people that replied (including JT) immediately called me a shill. Then i come over here, and the guy who is on the same side as me on that issue also calls me a shill. Man, somedays you just cant win.

Opinions change in 2 years time, and mine have changed regarding SMP as well as HIS technicians and their inferior method.....

First of all, it was just over 8 months, not 2 years. If you are so off the mark on that easily verifiable fact, it's no wonder why you are all over the map with everything else.

Second, it's really less of a change of opinion, and more of a contradiction.

You stated that that former HIS employee did excellent work, that a friend of yours had a treatment with him that was holding up, and that there was no reason to think that the other guys treatment would fade prematurely just because it was by a former HIS employee.

Then 8 months later -- citing nothing more than the one picture you previously based all of those compliments on -- you say exactly the opposite.

Come on now... even you have to admit that's a big ole flip flop.

It is difficult to gather much from the photos you posted b/c they do not seem to be high def photos.

Back in 2014 when he worked at a place called headstrong, one of his clients posted this photo of results with Matt, and to me the dots look pretty big, and resemble HIS hair results quite a bit. http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/176515-smp-clinic-question-2.html

Oh, the dots look big in that picture? The one taken only THREE days after a treatment?

In that post where later on the same day you told the guy that his results looked really good?

And on the next day told him: "Your SMP results look great! I do not notice that the dots are too big, but it can be difficult to tell from photos, and as you mentioned, the dots do shrink throughout the healing process so no worries there."?

You know, when you posted that picture, it reminded me of something else, but i cant quite place it... oh yeah... i think it reminded me of when that guy posted another picture on day 5 and said that the dots had shrunk, and then you told him again that you thought the treatment looked good.

Personally, I would avoid any provider who employs the 'HIS Hair Method' of SMP. Any former HIS Hair technician who has gone into business for himself is most likely doing things the "HIS Hair way".

 

Receiving your SMP treatment at a provider who is using the 'HIS Hair Method' means that your results will fade naturally much quicker than a proper SMP treatment- about one and a half to two years time after the final treatment you will have experienced severe fading.

 

My point is that the method they use fades very quickly, and if a client is okay with that and prefers to have a more temporary result, then they should absolutely go to one of these providers.

"I wasn't implying that b/c you had your SMP done by HIS former practitioner that yours would fade also. The fact is, Matt is one of the best practitioners out there, and just as you have said Matt's reputation speaks for itself. Anyone would be fortunate to have Matt do their smp. Plus I believe it is safe to say that Headstrong uses different inks/pigments than HIS, and may employ a slightly different method geared more for permanent results."?

Oh wait, yep... now i remember. Yeah, that was the thread where you repeatedly - accused - the - guy of working for headstrong, and then inexplicably reversed course in the middle of the thread to tell him how good his results were, and how lucky he was to have that HIS trained technician.

Good thread.

Now what was it that you were saying about big dots and former HIS employees?

Very nice result, hairthere. Subtle, yet still very noticeable, and it blends perfectly. Big improvement.

Bill i would respectfully disagree with you on the color changing part, depending on what specific colors you are referring to.

I'm new to the forum, and dont know if linking outside sources (like other forums) is allowed, so i will just talk about what i have seen while researching SMP. It may be wrong to even quote input from other sites, and if it is, just let me know and i will restate it in my own words.

When most people talk color change in regards to SMP, they are referring to it turning blue or green, like you sometimes see in regular tattoos. Reputable SMP companies (both permanent and temporary) use a specially designed scalp pigment that will not turn blue or green. Briefly, it has to do with the size of the pigment, how deep it is inserted, and its specific makeup.

Here is a more technical comment made on the forum of a reputable permanent SMP company, by a professor of biomedical engineering, who has close knowledge of the pigment this company uses, and who also has the treatment:

*Removed* uses a monomeric pigment that does not break down into smaller constituent parts. Because of the covalent bonding inherent to its molecular structure, uv radiation can fade the pigment but not cause it to change color. This is also true of immune mediated responses.

 

For those reasons, you only have to worry about fading as the years pass but not color change.

Today's pigments both permanent and semi-permanent are designed especially for the scalp. They are not permanent cosmetics nor tattoo ink but specially designed scalp pigments. Now, do these newly designed permanent pigments fade, change color, etc? Honestly, I don't know from first hand knowledge of using them myself. (Which is why I am choosing to learn more). What I can tell you is this: one of the reasons I love working with *removed* is that we see so many patients that I have the opportunity to see other peoples smp work up close and personal quite regularly. I can tell you that in monitoring these patients from other groups we have seen fading and a needs for touch-ups but not always color change.

What does happen, is that over time, the pigment dots get smaller as they fade, and as they do so, the eye may perceive them as being more grey than black. The temporary expert also touched on this:

So, I'm going to speculate that these new scalp pigments have a smaller particle size which will allow them to fade by virtue of being able to escape the cell wall. So, if they have a true black that exists on a grey scale as it lightens if it turns grey is that bad? I say no. Grey is the color of keratin which is the color of a hair follicle. Often you will see people who have full heads of hair but who choose to shave their head have a grey tone to their scalps.

I should note that if you read enough feedback, on rare occasions you may find someone who had a treatment at a reputable clinic complaining that it turned blue. I've seen it happen with both permanent and temporary, but again, it is rare. Often, the person that is complaining is merely moving through a normal part of the healing process, which isn't uncommon, where bruising or some other issue may give the treatment temporarily a slightly blue hue. Many times i've seen people panic that their treatment is blue, and then a week or so later report back that it looked perfectly normal once everything settled down.

The rarest reports are where a patient feels that it stays blue (and while it may be somewhat subjective, perhaps it does), but this would be due to a unique issue with that specific patient -- whether it's an immune response or reaction to the ink, or the pigment was applied improperly by the technician, or something of that nature. These are extremely rare situations, and im actually struggling to recall a specific case in my mind, but nonetheless, it should be mentioned. As far as a normal patient receiving a normal treatment, you will not find reports of blue ink from a reputable clinic, at least with the data we have now, which comfortably takes it out 4-5 years.

Finally, even if a worst case scenario happened, and a permanent or temporary SMP treatment from a reputable clinic degraded in such a way that it looked bad, remember that laser removal is an option, which greatly mitigates any long term risk.

Also, speaking of laser, keep in mind that even though temporary is temporary, it still takes 1-2(+) years for it to fade based on what i have read. So if someone received a temporary treatment, and 3-6 months later (or whatever) it degraded to a point where it looked bad, then unless they were okay with walking around with the bad treatment until it naturally fades away, they would be looking to laser removal as well. That's just a point that a lot of people miss when comparing the two types of SMP, in regards to bad treatments and laser removal.

Temporary obviously has an edge over permanent when it comes to removing or adjusting a satisfactory treatment, as it would require no laser to accomplish this, as long as the patient was okay waiting for it to naturally fade to the desired state. The trade-off, of course, is that temporary requires more frequent touch ups.

Personally i think either option is fantastic, and equally viable (SMP in general has drawbacks, of course), depending on the needs of the client. Starting with temporary, then if you like the look, progressing to permanent, sounds like a great way to go, but it might be a bit difficult to accomplish currently, as most reputable clinics that im aware of only do one or the other, so you would have to switch companies. I know of one reputable permanent company that is offering temporary, but i haven't seen enough feedback on how their temporary pigment performs to recommend it yet.

I thought about doing the temporary smp on my scalp to try it out but I don't like the idea of the ink pigments being absorbed into the body and passed through the lymph nodes.

 

How safe is permanent SMP on the scalp?

 

I don't want a chance of getting any kind of long term effects like cancer from something like this.

 

Where does the permanent SMP go when it starts to fade?

 

This concerns me as the inks are applied directly to the scalp. Does permanent SMP also get absorbed into the body?

 

I read somewhere that Dr. Pak mentioned there is a small possibility it can cause cancer. I need to know for sure before I go ahead and do this. Thanks

Hey LT. The way i understand it is that, yes, permanent SMP ink is absorbed by the body in a similar fashion as to how temporary SMP is.

It isn't extremely uncommon to see people report that their lymph nodes temporarily swell up after a treatment, due to either the trauma of the needle injections, or ink passing through them, or both. However, SMP pigments are made differently than normal tattoo inks, and smarter people than me say that the risk of cancer would be extremely low. Also, there is certainly no data to support a correlation at this time with either SMP pigment, or i believe even regular tattoo ink.

There is some great discussion in other places about this issue, with more technical specifics, but ill summarize what the biomedical engineer i referenced earlier had to say about it.

He surmised that decades down the line, there may be a slightly elevated risk of cancer correlated with tattoo/SMP pigment, but that it would probably be comparable to the link between drinking too much Pepsi and cancer. In other words, not a very significant one. He also points out that there is a statistical correlation between depression and cancer, and that if SMP causes someone to be less depressed, it may negate some/all of the increased risk. This is all speculation from him, but it is based on sound reasoning and the current data.

One additional thing worth mentioning is that i came across a thread once concerning permanent SMP clinics, where someone who is extremely anti SMP was adamantly claiming that it would lead to cancer. A former member of this website, who is now very involved with temporary SMP, stepped in to point out that there is zero evidence of what he was claiming, and said that there are more documented cases of people developing cancer or other diseases from drinking tap water, than there are from scalp pigmentation procedures.

Okay... well i might have said a little more here than i intended to do when i first started this post... haha. Oh well, hopefully it will be helpful to someone.

I guess i should add to anyone reading this that i am not financially tied to the SMP industry, nor would i really consider myself an expert. I'm someone who has been researching/following it for years online, and i try to spread the knowledge from other experts around. What i say is based on what i read from the experts, and more importantly, on the feedback i read from clients. Dont rely solely on what i say, do your own research, and most importantly try to see it in person as much as you can. SMP isn't perfect, but it is proving successful in many cases.