Senior Member NervousNelly Posted March 14, 2007 Senior Member Share Posted March 14, 2007 I really don't want to continue to drag on this thread as it really should have ended long ago but.....top of page 3 John. No big deal I never have hard feelings. NN Dr.Cole,1989. ??graftcount Dr. Ron Shapiro. Aug., 2007 Total graft count 2862 Total hairs 5495 1hairs--916 2hairs--1349 3hairs--507 4hairs--90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Middleson Posted March 15, 2007 Senior Member Share Posted March 15, 2007 double post, sorry. (was editing previous post to remove capital words) _________________ 2967 Total Grafts w/ Dr. Cooley on 1/3/07 [1st HT] Hair Count = 5,427 My Hair Loss Weblog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 From Pat... So let's not post graft counts on this forum without the actual hair counts. Though I certainly agree that providing hair counts can be useful, I personally feel that there is a lot of passion firing back and forth on this topic, perhaps a little more than should be. Whereas I find the numbers useful, I don't see any reason why they should be REQUIRED from a patient who wants to post. Additionally it seems that some people are using a clnic's lack or response to "the call" so to speak as ammunition to question their integrity (that has already been determined by Pat by entering them into the coalition). Perhaps if we are to make this a standard, we should be giving clinics more time...try to keep in mind, this IS a relatively new concept "count hairs not grafts" and it seems that the patient demand for it is NOT that high (yet if will ever be). Now I do have my hair counts from Dr. Hasson (divided into singles and multis) and can and will be happy to provide that data, but nothing beyond. I do not have that data from Dr. True and Dr. Katz at this point and am not compelled to go back and try to find out. Would I like more detailed information - certainly. But I chose the clinics I chose WITHOUT asking whether or not they will give me detailed hair counts. In the beginning of my journey, perhaps that's a bad thing....but I do feel that photos and consistent results displayed still speak much more highly than any number could. That being said...I agree with John_in_NC. It appears that this issues of providing hairs have made people question reputable clinics who have proven themselves over many years. We should not be using a LACK of counted hairs as fuel to attack clinics whether Hasson and Wong or other reputable clinics that are coalition members. Is the information valuable? IMO...yes! So kudos to those clinics who are providing the counts. But does not providing the counts make them unreputable now? If we answer that question "yes", then we have to question why Pat entered them into the coalition in the first place. If the answer is "no", then I think we need to take a serious look at our accusations against any clinic for not providing such data. Questions are one thing, but accusations are another. My friends....let's not let a topic that obviously has many different viewpoints turn one against another. But instead, let us continue to logically share our point of view so that future readers can see this thread as useful and draw their own conclusions. From Pat... THE COUNT is the end result. IMO....this is true, but it's only a large piece to a multi-piece puzzle. There are other determining factors that determine the end results other than numbers. Here are others: 1. Hair shaft diameter 2. Hair color 3. Strategic Distribution of follicles Though NUMBERS is truly a large piece of this puzzle, let's not forget these other important points to determining the final outcome. The greater the number, the potential the greater density...BUT, a person with 10,000 fine blond hairs may not appear as dense a person with 8,000 transplanted brown thicker hairs. Of course, depending on how these follicles are distributed will also make a difference. So whereas numbers ARE important and I don't dispute that the information would be helpful...we have to consider that there is more to the final result the count alone. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Middleson Posted March 16, 2007 Senior Member Share Posted March 16, 2007 Bill, I admire your ability to reasonably discuss contentious topics without resorting to emotional flare ups, or worse "taking your marbles and going home", so to speak (i wonder if the younger guys would undestand this expression?). Not everyone is emotionally freaked out over the topic of Hair Counts. But we might still have an opinion in the matter. Do I personally think hair counts are a valid tool for comparison? Yes, I do. Do I care if someone doesn't provide the number? No. Do I think they should by provided as a standard? Yes, from what I've read this would be my choice. Do I think not providing Hair Counts is deceptive? Not necessarily. Do I think I'm an expert in this matter? Certainly not! Kudos to you Bill, and everyone else who kept a cool head and didn't overeact about the subject of Hair Counts. _________________ 2967 Total Grafts w/ Dr. Cooley on 1/3/07 [1st HT] Hair Count = 5,427 My Hair Loss Weblog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member nobuzz4me Posted March 16, 2007 Senior Member Share Posted March 16, 2007 Good discussion here and I agree that we should keep a cool head about this difference in opinion. I would like to add a few points. 1) Information, giving and receiving, to hairloss suffer's are what this forum is all about, it is why most of us are here. 2) Many may not care about the number hairs, diameter, densities etc. That is for each person to decide. 3) Many guys like me, got plugs in the old technology days because we did not have the correct information in order to make the proper decisions. 4) Lets move forward to make sure patients can get all the information they can get about making a life changing decision. 5) For those that got great results without needing all the details, we are happy for you. 6) Lets try and keep all doctors/clinics accountable and moving forward. Lets not let patients go into this without armed with the most information they can get. We are all on the same team, we should all strive to raise the standards of this previously shady industry. (Some parts are still shady, Bosley/MHR, not talking about H&W or the coalition). NoBuzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Hair_Tomorrow Posted March 16, 2007 Regular Member Share Posted March 16, 2007 The result is the end result. Experience, technique, patient satisfaction, artistry...these are much more important than quantity. In fact, if quantity is your most important criteria for a good transplant, you shouldn't be having a transplant. MHO The crusade to force hair transplant doctors to tell you how many singles they used strikes me as an odd battle to wage. There are sooooo many bad doctors out there, so many scams and frauds...so many better ways to spend your time, so many more real battles to wage than this silly childrens crusade. Any educated adult male with even a fraction of common sense has the power to choose which ever doctor they want. There is no medical data that supports knowing your exact hair count makes for a better transplant. Some bad doctors provide exact hair counts; some good doctors provide exact hair counts. Some bad doctors provide FU's. Some good doctors provide FU's. As a consumer, if your number 1 goal is counts, by all means, go to a bean counter and get a transplant. If results are your most important criteria, go to a doctor with great results. When I hear words like "forcing" and "demanding" it makes me think there is more to the debate than we're hearing. I don't know the history, but it seems to me there is some bad blood between Pat and the folks at Hasson and Wong, and this "crusade" is a thinly veiled attempt to discredit one of the best transplant facilities in North America. Of course, this is just the way it seems to me, and I'm sure I could be mis-reading the real intent behind this crusade... Just really seems like we should be supporting each other, and not asking members to censor our experiences. There are so many more "less silly" crusades to wage. Time to move on, time to let it go, time to end the Shapiro Vs. Hasson/Wong fight. They're both great doctors. 4700 fu w/Dr. Hasson on 3/1/07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Janna Posted March 17, 2007 Senior Member Share Posted March 17, 2007 I agree that this thread has gotten absurd. While I did not have any intention of contributing any further to this thread, I have to say that I know Pat and he has no hidden agenda or any type of vendetta against H&W that I'm aware of. Neither do I or anyone else at SMG. I agree as well that no should be forced to display patient data. I believe Pat has always been a champion for patient's rights and just wants the best for all hair loss sufferers. His simple request of getting true comparisons of work from EVERY clinic is met with excuses. Is counting hairs the ONLY measure of comparison? No, but it is one aspect and a relatively easy one to get. So, I think some people are just perplexed as to why such resistance to it. The subject of wanting to know all aspects of a patient's surgery has been around for quite a while for comparison purposes. To know a graft count and thus the hair count is a reasonable way of comparing and ascertaining what number of hairs would satisfy a particular person's needs for a satisfactory HT. Of course there is going to be a difference of opinion as to what is exactly important in the research process. Some will go to a "bean counter" and some will not depending on what they feel is important. What I don't agree with is that you should feel silly if you want to count the "beans". With no animosity, I think it should be okay to question ANY doctors work whether it's a major or minor issue. No one should be above questioning. Patient Care Services & UK Patient Advisor for Shapiro Medical Dr. Ron Shapiro, Dr. Paul Shapiro and Dr. David Josephitis are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians. http://shapiromedical.com/info@shapiromedical.com http://shapiromedical.com/contact/request-a-consultation/janna@shapiromedical.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Hair_Tomorrow Posted March 17, 2007 Regular Member Share Posted March 17, 2007 Could not agree with you more, Janna. Freedom of choice, free will. No one is above questioning. If I thought knowing my counts would provide a better transplant, and I interviewed a doctor that didn't give them, I'd go somewhere else. There is not one thread of clinical data that even hints that me knowing my exact counts provides a better transplant....it's a matter of personal preference, a matter of choice, a matter of what my priorities are, as the consumer. So we have two sets of personal opinions, both lacking any medical data to suggest one is better than the other. One side says you should demand that you know your exact count, one says they would rather rely on the experience and result of the doctor. In a case of personal preference, there should never be any "demanding" "forcing" and especially censorship. We should just be helping each other, not censoring or making demands of each other....those words are contradictory to what I believe this board is all about. 4700 fu w/Dr. Hasson on 3/1/07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member hairlosscursed Posted May 11, 2010 Regular Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 is all these true???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 hairlosscursed, Without going through 9 pages of posts from 3 years ago, can you be a little more specific as to what you're concerned about? Best wishes, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 he is obviously concerned about the topic being discussed here. and he is not the only one. And u dont have to read 9 pages of posts while being on line in the forum for 3 hours, since u can save a printed version in your hard drive and read it anytime u want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Tsakalos, There was a lot discussed and I'm asking him to share more specifically what he's concerned about instead of rehashing everything that's already been said. I think this is a reasonable request. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 (edited) well i never speak for others, but i will make an exception since he is a close friend of mine, he is concerned about his ht. and he doesnt like this splitting graft theory thing here being unexplained, especially when the results are not as expected, after having invested 20.000 on a ht, without enjoying the tranformation , and experiecing all the common feelings we all know, such as depression, anxiety, not been able to work, not been able to enjoy sex, and even worse when extensive grafts splitting may result in thin and wispy hair growth, transection rate and so on. Apart from the issue that the patient is get doubled charged and cheated, IF extensive graft splitting is performed without the patient to be informed AND agree for this surgery to be performed under these circumstances.. And he is not the only one... Edited May 11, 2010 by Tsakalos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Tsakalos, If hairlosscursed is concerned about his results, he should speak to his clinic. He is also welcome to start his own topic to share his experience and photos and garner feedback from this community. But I don't think you should be speaking on his behalf. Would you want someone speaking on your behalf? Regarding this topic, there is plenty of information already here for the adult members of this community to draw conclusions from. Unless there is anything new somebody would like to share, I don't think rehashing an old discussion is going to be helpful. Best wishes, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 ok so i am speaking on my behalf , consider the above post my concern too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Tsakalos, I'm not trying to minimize your concerns, but I've already shared my opinion on this topic and there's really nothing new I can say about it. If somebody else wants to chime in, that's up to them. However, each patient concern needs to be handled individually and should be discussed individually. Unfortunately, some unhappy patients grasp at anything to justify feeling wronged. The question is, would this topic really be a concern for a satisfied patient? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 When a hair transplant procedure accomplishes the goals it is made for, no it whouldnt be a concern. But when things do not come as expected, or even worse when things go totally wrong after having done extensive research then yes its is concern. and along with this concern here, many others arise, such as "WHY ME ?" (for example) and when u have very few limited options left + the need for repair surgery the situation becomes really devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member The Cure Posted May 11, 2010 Regular Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Tsakalos, I just asked you a question on the other post. Who did your surgeries, any pictures? What size were they? Ju Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 (edited) I dont want to mention details about my 3rd surgery at this time. And i didnt post anything when i did it while being very enthousiastic about the 3rd one. I had so far 3 strips total arround 8600 grafts. At least in papers. And i am talking about $$ bill papers cause i never got any paper proving i had these number of grafts from any surgery, not the results represent 8500 grafts. Not even close. Anyway the first 2 operations produced somewhat acceptable results. at least they improved my overall appearance. u can see the old surgeries in an old gallery i have here Edited May 11, 2010 by Tsakalos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Sparky Posted May 11, 2010 Senior Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Although I'm not a big Armani fan, I think your results look really good, dont you like it? My Hairloss Website http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/blog/home-page.asp?WebID=2198 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsakalos Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 the front ok the crown not so ok, but my concerns and are about the 3rd ht which was done last august elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member stardog champion Posted May 11, 2010 Regular Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Tsakalos - nice results on those pics... Great hairline. My Hair Loss Website - Hair Transplant with Dr. Hasson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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