Choosing the correct clinic

[RODY94]

Hey guys,

26 year old male from Canada, been on Finastride for ~2 years and I would place myself somewhere on the Norwood 4 scale (probably early NW4). Hairline loss at the front, density loss in the front 1/3-1/2 and in the crown. I was mostly using youtube to research where and what procedure to go for and I kept stumbling on this video of Amir (I can link it if needed, not sure about forum policies on links) where he went to Vera clinic and had a great experience. I have in touch with them, and although they seem quite pushy, they're also quite organized and have very good reviews on their costumer care. I was wondering if there is anyone here who's had unsatisfactory results with them, or someone who's been ecstatic with Vera and what they got? I spoke with my doctor in Canada as well, and even he suggested Turkey as a good place to go to for transplants as they have lots and lots of experience with the procedure. Caveat, we are good family friends with the doctor so I guess he felt comfortable mentioning this.

I honestly can's fathom to pay more than 7-8k CAD for a procedure such as this. In my opinion, if the procedure would cost more than 7-8k, the alternatives become a lot more attractive e.g. SMP to deal with my density problem, hair fibers or even going super buzz mode! So for me who'd probably need somewhere between 3.5 - 4.5/5k grafts, paying more than 3 CAD per graft is a little unreasonable. I would really appreciate people's thoughts on this and please feel free to convince me otherwise, I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on both clinic choice, Drs and the whole price business. I understand the whole "it's for life" argument, but from the youtube videos I've seen, the difference between the vera clinic ones (Amir and others) and those of Dr. Bisanga, Pekiner, picer and the others are not heaven and earth.

 

Thanks boiz! 

[MachoVato]

I've seen his video. It's not a bad result at all. IMO, the density could be better but it looks fine because of his darker skin and thick hair. He's the perfect transplant candidate.

That said, their Instagram has lots of sub-par outcomes. Low densities, some hairlines too straight and some plugginess. One patient had his temple peaks done and it looks pretty bad. Maybe most people wouldn't notice it, but everyone here can spot the work.

Technology has made it rather easy to grow hair. Most clinics can do that. Naturalness is hard. Comparing Vera with Bisanga isn't fair. Bisanga is 5X the cost for a reason. For under €1.5/graft, you're best bet would be Dr. Turan or Dr. Gur. 

[Melvin- Admin]

Honestly, do nothing. Doing nothing is never a bad choice. If you can’t afford a good surgeon. Don’t do it, much better to shave it costs nothing. 

[RODY94]

Appreciate the input guys. It's not a matter of being able to afford it or not, rather than wanting to spend an absence amount of money for a difference that personally I cannot tell even after researching this topic for the past 4-5 months. I checked out Bisanga's youtube vidoes, and I notice that most of his clients are NW3 or bellow. The only results on Vera that I found really terrible and with bad density, were the NW5 and above guys, whom vera tries to transplant over 5-6k grafts in one session, which obviously is a recipe for disaster.

My main question is, in the NW4 family, I honestly can't find results that are terrible from Vera, and I can't find enough results from Bisanga, Fereira and some of the others to feel confident in going there. I found AEK vey helpful in explaining things and his love for FUT, and pekiner seems to have seen a couple of NW4 in his life too. It would be great if you guys could show me what you mean by "imperfect' or "unatural" in a typical NW4 case from someone who's been to Vera and someone who's been to these other clinics.

I will check out Dr. Gur and Turan, thanks champ. Always appreciate direct advice, keep it rolling!

[Melvin- Admin]

Believe me there’s a big difference in the doctors you’ve mentioned in terms of growth, refinement and quality. You’re getting surgery, it’s not like shopping for a TV, this is your head we’re talking about. 

[RODY94]

I mean could you help me understand the difference, or maybe give some pointers as to what you mean by refinement and quality? My conflict right now is I've seen (even on this forum) many cases where the person is satisfied with their results and had paid a presumably large sum of money, but I would not be pleased with said result. And cases where they paid a mediocre or even little amount of money and were not happy with their results, whereas I would find that result very pleasing.

I have found this industry to be very subjective, and hence my questions about the differences.

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, RODY94 said:

I mean could you help me understand the difference, or maybe give some pointers as to what you mean by refinement and quality? My conflict right now is I've seen (even on this forum) many cases where the person is satisfied with their results and had paid a presumably large sum of money, but I would not be pleased with said result. And cases where they paid a mediocre or even little amount of money and were not happy with their results, whereas I would find that result very pleasing.

I have found this industry to be very subjective, and hence my questions about the differences.

Refinement refers to hair placement, graft selection and overall appearance. In my opinion, the cheaper places may give decent density, but the refinement lacks. 

Watch this video, three excellent surgeons, three excellent outcomes that are consistent. It’s a fallacy to start shopping around like your shopping for cars. The best in the world charge a premium for a reason. 

 

[RODY94]

Update: Had some chats with Dr. Gur, Dr. Yaman and AEK. From what i can tell, the prices are FAR better than what I have been seeing on the website. AEK seems very professional and "less markettingy" than any of the other ones I've talked to. He's also not afraid of proposing FUT, which I find very honest and interesting since I can always cover that scar up with micropigmentation. 

Thoughts on any of the above guys?

[THE TRUTH]

Karadeniz has several bad results on this forum. Check them out. 

Yaman too. Actually Yaman has had reports of overharvested donor area and  botched job on temples.  Check out spanish youtuber tenermaspelo  he has talked about these Yaman cases. 

I wouldn't risk Yaman & Karadeniz...

Only decent "budget" options would be Bicer or Gur/Turan.

They are miles away from Bisanga & Konior  but solid if we consider their fair price.  

[1978matt]

2 hours ago, RODY94 said:

Update: Had some chats with Dr. Gur, Dr. Yaman and AEK. From what i can tell, the prices are FAR better than what I have been seeing on the website. AEK seems very professional and "less markettingy" than any of the other ones I've talked to. He's also not afraid of proposing FUT, which I find very honest and interesting since I can always cover that scar up with micropigmentation. 

Thoughts on any of the above guys?

I don't really follow these guys but for relatively low cost/decent results there is Dr Saifi (Poland) and Dr Demirsoy.  But don't take my word for it.  Dig deep and see what you think.

Demirsoy is actually quite conservative in his hairline placement for a Turkish doctor.

[RODY94]

Quote

I wouldn't risk Yaman & Karadeniz...

Aren't both Forum recommended? I'm also in touch with Dr. Rahal in toronto (quite convenient for me, right around the corner) to see what he says, and sent my consultation to the "top guys" as well like Bisanga, De Freitas, Feriduni and Bicer.

I understand everyone here wants to sway you towards a more clinically correct decision, however I'm feeling that the forum is very dismissive of the more budget options. I've been researching this field for 5-6 months and have a decent idea of what constitutes a good procedure. Vera, AEK and Gur all have very good results, along with some bad ones. The bad results however tend to be those >4k graft single session extractions that produce unrealistic and "bad" hairlines and densities. They do a one site fits all procedure, and obviously special cases need special procedures. Having discussed with a lot of people on the forum and read stories and comments, I truthfully can't discern a noticable difference between the best of Vera, AEK, Yaman and etc. and the best of the top dogs (in this forum, this seems to be Bisanga and De Freitas). what I find striking is in the those higher norwood cases, where these top dogs (and correctly so) do 2-3 procedures 1-2 years apart and a mix of FUE and FUT.

I could be very wrong in my assessment, and obviously would love to hear more from everyone. My digging for now, found little difference in the 3-4k graft cases between the Turkey boys and the top dogs, considering the 4x or sometimes 5x price difference.

[THE TRUTH]

Well that's true. I have to agree...

A top Bisanga result will not look much different than a top result from Vera...

HOWEVER  if you look statistically at for example 100 cases from Bisanga. 

How many great results are there  with perfect donor management ? I'd say easily 70-80. 

How many bad results are there for 100 cases ? I think 0. At very worst there might be like 5-10  average results. 

 

Now if we look at Vera, Yaman, Karadeniz etc... 

How many great results are there for every 100 cases ? 

I'd say 20 or 30 at very best. 

How many average ones ? By average I mean some growth in the recipient with poor density.

At least 50.

How many really BAD ones with botched job, overharvesting etc...

Well my friend I'd say in the 20-30 range too. 

So IF you are really lucky you might get a Bisanga type result for 3000-4000$....Sure that can happen. 

But if we look at things from a purely statistical standpoint, chances are low and again it is russian roulette. 

It's up to you to decide whether you are ready to take that risk. 

In case things turn out unlucky then there will be no possibility to restore your wasted grafts. And this time you will have to go back to a reputable place for repair... Not only will your donor be partially wasted forever but also -and more importantly - you will have to pay 3 to 5 times the initial amount to get an average repair result that you could gotten much much better had you gone to the reputable doctor in the first place. You know what I'm sayin bro ? 

With doctors such as Bisanga, Lorenzo etc... you are basically paying for guarantee of great long term donor management and high chances (not guarantee though...) of great result. At very worst you may get an average result and then negotiate a free touch-up which most of the reputable places do offer. 

With Yaman etc...you could get a great result if you are really luck but you can also get permanently destroyed for life.  

[Melvin- Admin]

At the end of the day, you have to research for yourself. Anyone can say anything anonymously on a forum. You may agree or disagree. If you’re interested in a particular surgeon pull up the reviews here and examine the work yourself. 

If you’re thinking surgery is a simple thing that should cost a couple of grand you are sadly mistaken. It is SURGERY, it’s not an insignificant thing, it’s major. Not sure if that’s registering in your mind.

[RODY94]

@What is your agenda here See I think this statistical distribution you talk about is only present at the >4k graft cases. I've looked thorugh reddit, youtube and probably 4-5 cases per doctor on this site, and honestly, I haven't found a single bad procedure in the ~3k graft range from any of these guys (Vera, Yaman, Bicer, Bisanga, AEK ...). My thought is that these graft ranges are simpler cases and hence, don't require such refined donor management and etc. I won't argue the credentials of the top guys, but if you have a cold, you don't need to go to a heart specialist. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. This has been my evaluation of the couple of cases of seen from all the doctors above.

 

@Melvin- Moderator Interesting that you bring up the word surgery. I'm no stranger to it, believe me. I've probably had more of those than everyone else on this thread combined LOL. But I do understand your point, and I definitely wouldn't want to risk my health over a couple of dollars. I've just been thinking that for the cases of <4k grafts which I would also fall into, I can't see a significant difference between the lot, as it appears to be on the moderate difficulty side. Obviously, any place with subpar medical credentials is off the table right away, I'm not trying to get a head infection!

 

 

[THE TRUTH]

8 hours ago, RODY94 said:

@What is your agenda here See I think this statistical distribution you talk about is only present at the >4k graft cases. I've looked thorugh reddit, youtube and probably 4-5 cases per doctor on this site, and honestly, I haven't found a single bad procedure in the ~3k graft range from any of these guys (Vera, Yaman, Bicer, Bisanga, AEK ...). My thought is that these graft ranges are simpler cases and hence, don't require such refined donor management and etc. I won't argue the credentials of the top guys, but if you have a cold, you don't need to go to a heart specialist. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. This has been my evaluation of the couple of cases of seen from all the doctors above.

 

@Melvin- Moderator Interesting that you bring up the word surgery. I'm no stranger to it, believe me. I've probably had more of those than everyone else on this thread combined LOL. But I do understand your point, and I definitely wouldn't want to risk my health over a couple of dollars. I've just been thinking that for the cases of <4k grafts which I would also fall into, I can't see a significant difference between the lot, as it appears to be on the moderate difficulty side. Obviously, any place with subpar medical credentials is off the table right away, I'm not trying to get a head infection!

 

 

Allright fair enough. 

But I suggest you find the bad results I am talking about from Yaman as well as from Karadeniz and ask yourself the following question: what if I become one of those guys ? What am I  gonna do ? 

If you can't answer that question then don't go with them. 

Ultimately the only "budget option" I'd trust in Turkey is Bicer. 

[RODY94]

Update on AEK. I had some whatsapp exchanges with their consultant Omar, and I was getting the wrong vibes. I liked the fact that they gave 3 different options of graft count, and suggested the more conservative option. He also mentioned that the doctor would only see 1-3 patients per day. However, when I asked about the role of the doctor he kept giving me a scripted answer of: The doctor and technicians work together to make the operation work. Would you ask your heart surgeon the name of their technicians and the person who does the sedation? Honestly, I was quite confused and offended by the answer and tried to poke and prong the real answer out of him, but he never said anything more. Never disclosed what the doctor would do, I even asked whether he would be making the incisions but no real response other than: Look what I've said before. He also wanted to make me decide on a date right then and there, which I found nonsensical. 

 

So yeah, Not sure about AEK right now.

[Britanium]

6 minutes ago, RODY94 said:

Update on AEK. I had some whatsapp exchanges with their consultant Omar, and I was getting the wrong vibes. I liked the fact that they gave 3 different options of graft count, and suggested the more conservative option. He also mentioned that the doctor would only see 1-3 patients per day. However, when I asked about the role of the doctor he kept giving me a scripted answer of: The doctor and technicians work together to make the operation work. Would you ask your heart surgeon the name of their technicians and the person who does the sedation? Honestly, I was quite confused and offended by the answer and tried to poke and prong the real answer out of him, but he never said anything more. Never disclosed what the doctor would do, I even asked whether he would be making the incisions but no real response other than: Look what I've said before. He also wanted to make me decide on a date right then and there, which I found nonsensical. 

 

So yeah, Not sure about AEK right now.

AEK was a good option a few years ago when the Dr only had one patient per day and was very much involved… these days it’s run like a hair mill.. Dr K is very talented, but the business model is pushing a mostly tech driven procedure.. 

[THE TRUTH]

5 hours ago, RODY94 said:

Update on AEK. I had some whatsapp exchanges with their consultant Omar, and I was getting the wrong vibes. I liked the fact that they gave 3 different options of graft count, and suggested the more conservative option. He also mentioned that the doctor would only see 1-3 patients per day. However, when I asked about the role of the doctor he kept giving me a scripted answer of: The doctor and technicians work together to make the operation work. Would you ask your heart surgeon the name of their technicians and the person who does the sedation? Honestly, I was quite confused and offended by the answer and tried to poke and prong the real answer out of him, but he never said anything more. Never disclosed what the doctor would do, I even asked whether he would be making the incisions but no real response other than: Look what I've said before. He also wanted to make me decide on a date right then and there, which I found nonsensical. 

 

So yeah, Not sure about AEK right now.

Karadeniz comes across as a nice guy on youtube. His english is good.

But don't u get fooled. He does only the initial planning and opening of the channels. That' it. 

Just like Koray, Serkan, Balwi, Çinik, Acar and all other hairmills...

With karadeniz it's hit or miss. 

I'll be honest I've never seen disasters from him (like completely overharvested donor areas, necrosis, infections etc...) but I've seen some really mediocre results....Like no growth at all in the recipient area. 

Hence u should weigh the pros and cons and make a well informed decision.

I understand you're looking for a budget option with some doctor involvement who has at least some recognition in the field. I totally get it bro. 👍

  But tell me tell ya I've just seen too many really subpar cases from these guys: oguzoglu, yaman, karadeniz etc.... and at the end of the day their involvement during surgery is minimal. 

I do agree they are somewhat better than the cheap hairmills but again it all comes down to risk vs reward ratio. 

When it comes to Male Pattern Hairloss, which we all know is an extremely complex and progressive genetic condition that implies working with a limited number of grafts throughout the lifetime  then I think it's not worth the risk. 

Some people get lucky but some get screwed for life. 

If your hairloss is more than Norwood 3 and you get a bad FUE meaning they take out like 4000 grafts from your donor and these grafts do not grow on the recipient then my friend you may NEVER be able to achieve the illusion of full coverage on your balding areas...

So that is something to take into consideration before going forward. 

What is your Norwood scale bro ? 

Have you ever had surgery before ? 

You should try to get it right from the first time. 

And even if you go with the best if the best you may not be entirely satisfied from the first time and still may need a touch a 2nd surgery if your baldness is already advanced. 

 

[Britanium]

2 hours ago, What is your agenda here said:

But don't u get fooled. He does only the initial planning and opening of the channels. That' it. 

Lucky if he does the opening of the channels these days, a lot of people only see him for the drawing on/planning of the hairline. Shame really as he was recommended here once upon a time.. 

[BaldDude]

3 hours ago, J.A.C said:

Lucky if he does the opening of the channels these days, a lot of people only see him for the drawing on/planning of the hairline. Shame really as he was recommended here once upon a time.. 

Yes you have to get a higher tier package for him to do the channels.

Edited April 30, 2022 by BaldBobby

[asterix0]

I can tell you are looking at this with rose colored glasses, and assuming everything will go well with a budget clinic.

Just ask yourself, if you have a depleted donor, if your hairline looks unnatural, if the yield is bad and the transplant is a failure, can you live with this? I feel like you are not even entertaining this as a possibility right now, just imagining your result will be whatever latest YouTube video you have seen.

You are taking a big risk thinking like this, and I hope you realize this because I want you to have a successful outcome, not to come back here asking for repair surgeons a year later down the road. 

If you are Norwood 4 at age 26 you will likely be Norwood 6 or 7 quite soon, as your hair loss is very aggressive. You will look unnatural if you don't plan for future hairloss and need to utilize your grafts as best as possible, otherwise you will not have enough remaining to compensate for when you go slick bald (which will 99% happen in your case of early, aggressive loss).

[asterix0]

You should not look at Norwood 4 results, as you are only Norwood 4 temporarily, but this is most certainly not your final pattern. You must look for results that are Norwood 6 or 7, as this will be your eventual Norwood pattern. 

[RODY94]

1 hour ago, asterix0 said:

I can tell you are looking at this with rose colored glasses, and assuming everything will go well with a budget clinic.

Just ask yourself, if you have a depleted donor, if your hairline looks unnatural, if the yield is bad and the transplant is a failure, can you live with this? I feel like you are not even entertaining this as a possibility right now, just imagining your result will be whatever latest YouTube video you have seen.

You are taking a big risk thinking like this, and I hope you realize this because I want you to have a successful outcome, not to come back here asking for repair surgeons a year later down the road. 

If you are Norwood 4 at age 26 you will likely be Norwood 6 or 7 quite soon, as your hair loss is very aggressive. You will look unnatural if you don't plan for future hairloss and need to utilize your grafts as best as possible, otherwise you will not have enough remaining to compensate for when you go slick bald (which will 99% happen in your case of early, aggressive loss).

I'm trying to look through transparent glasses LOL I've only been looking at cases on this network and on reddit for different doctors (plus youtube). If there's a different source, please do let me know. 

I'm a grade 3-4 and honestly, it wouldn't have been this bad if I hadn't used kreatine for a long time. I stopped using it and started Fin and have had some extra growth and quite a stable density for the past 2 years now. I think of a it as a self inflicted bullet, although shedding is a norm now. 

All I would need is 1-2 bad results from clinics such as VERA, yaman or AEK with my range of grafts for me to reconsider lol. And honestly, I'm having a hard time finding those really subpar results. They're plentiful in the >4-4.5k graft range where obviously a double session probably 1-2 years apart should have been done instead of a single "mega-session". Never really understood the appeal of a mega-session, hmm maybe its the word mega LOL. But yeah, hope you guys can show me some baddies 

[asterix0]

@RODY94 see this: 

 

https://www.hairlossexperiences.com/threads/is-vera-clinic-a-good-clinic-for-hair-transplantions.9747/

They advertise themselves as the "best clinic in Europe" on their instagram page. Why would they charge significantly less than the consensus best surgeons in Europe in that case? Surely they could charge x2 more and be competitive with the best surgeons, if they truly claim to be the best?

I have seen some of the results on their YouTube page, they look decent but to me this is not sufficient evidence to proceed with them. The hair characteristics of the people in the videos seem quite thick and so the chance of a good result is much higher in this scenario.

We have not seen any pictures of your hair yet so I can't comment on your particular case.

[asterix0]

Here is some more for your edification:

 

Here the result is heavily combed over, you can't even really see what was accomplished:

 

However, here is a patient with a very dense, high quality donor. If your donor is this quality then yes you can obtain a good result most likely: