HT without Finasteride

[BaronVonHairline]

5 hours ago, Curious25 said:

The problem with micro dosing is that if it's still reducing the DHT levels in your body similar to what the recommended doses do,

*and you are prone to having negative side effects*

you will eventually have the same side effects, albeit potentially slightly delayed and further down the line, once the build up of continuous 5AR inhibition has reached a level great enough to affect you adversely. 

Think about it logically - the reason side effects occur in the first place, is because of 5AR inhibition, and the subsequent lowering of DHT. Therefore, no matter what the dosage you take, if you are achieving reduction in DHT by a similar amount to what the recommended doses achieve (as you stated) - there is no reason why this would make you immune from adverse side effects because exactly the same thing is essentially going on inside your body. 

Now if you stated micro dosing was proven to not reduce DHT by a similar amount (which I think is what some studies suggest) the argument for side effect mitigation holds more credibility - however Its similar to fat loss, in the sense that you can't spot reduce fat in the gym, as you equally can't spot reduce DHT, and specifically target just the hair follicles (unfortunately). Dependent on the individual - even the slightest reduction in DHT levels and fiddling with the endocrine system may incur adverse and unwanted effects, however IMO, in the majority of users, it probably wouldn't cause an issue.

The same goes for larger doses - theres seemingly people who take 1.25mg proscar daily without any issues, as there is for dutasteride users. 

Yup. I was taking 1/4 pills (.25mg) on a sporadic schedule for just a few weeks and I still had sides and then a full crash which took me months after stopping to recover from.

No matter the dosage, some people are just really, really sensitive to the reduction process. Sometimes I look back and wonder if taking it sporadically was also part of the problem, as my body didn't have a schedule to adjust to, but I think there's more than enough reason to think, given the total amounts I took, that I am just hypersensitive to fin.

In the end I took a total of ~10 doses over the course of ~6weeks (if I recall correctly) which is about 1/4 pill 2x/week, making my total intake of fin only 2.5mg, the equivalent of only 2.5 full pills. Despite that I still crashed, very hard, and had a hellish several months of recovery. Fin is just really hard on certain people. I still wonder what the underlying reasons might be--genetic predisposition, or maybe compromised immune system, sub-optimal gut health, endocrine system predispositions, who really knows?

Anyway, I truly envy the people who can take fin without sides for years and years on end. Wish it went that way for me. Bald luck I guess. I mean bad.... BAD luck. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by BaronVonHairline

[BaronVonHairline]

2 hours ago, elduterino said:

 

b) I have been using Chinese providers for 12 years for RU and CB and never had any issues, I still have hair and my dick is working great much better than when I was on fin or DUT.

 

Just curious, what are RU and CB? Not familiar with those. 

[Melvin- Admin]

25 minutes ago, BaronVonHairline said:

Just curious, what are RU and CB? Not familiar with those. 

RU58841 and CB-031 they used to be the rave back in 2013

[Maz_a]

4 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

I’ve never heard of this, link any articles?

The drug that has just been approved by the FDA is Winlevi, as a treatment for acne.

The company is Cassiopea, which is simultaneously developing Breezula, which contains exactly the same active ingredient (Clascoterone) but at a higher concentration (circa 7%) for male pattern baldness.

I believe the intended market launch would be 2022 for Breezula, were it to be FDA approved. But Winlevi getting the approval is obviously a good sign, even though it's for a different indication.

https://www.cassiopea.com/company/

I think it's something to be optimistic about. And I am optimistic and hopeful that better stabilising alternatives to Finasteride will come out in the next 1-3 years. Finasteride's side-effect profile is just not acceptable to a lot of guys, me included, even though it's a very small number of users being adversely impacted.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Maz_a

[Melvin- Admin]

6 minutes ago, Maz_a said:

The drug that has just been approved by the FDA is Winlevi, as a treatment for acne.

The company is Cassiopea, which is simultaneously developing Breezula, which contains exactly the same active ingredient (Clascoterone) but at a higher concentration (circa 7%) for male pattern baldness.

I believe the intended market launch would be 2022 for Breezula, were it to be FDA approved. But Winlevi getting the approval is obviously a good sign, even though it's for a different indication.

https://www.cassiopea.com/company/

I think it's something to be optimistic about. And I am optimistic and hopeful that better stabilising alternatives to Finasteride will come out in the next 1-3 years. Finasteride's side-effect profile is just not acceptable to a lot of guys, me included, even though it's a very small number of users being adversely impacted.

Oh so it’s breezula, I believe it’s already being prescribed in Italy, perhaps @Egy can confirm.

[Maz_a]

1 minute ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Oh so it’s breezula, I believe it’s already being prescribed in Italy, perhaps @Egy can confirm.

Yes, however Breezula didn't receive the FDA approval, only Winlevi. But it's the same ingredient.
It might be that some doctors would prescribe Winlevi off-label. Who knows. Here's hoping. #lovemyhairbutlovemydi**more

[Maz_a]

Regarding the topic of "Should I have a transplant without Finasteride?"; I met with a well respected hair loss surgeon in London the other week, who told me that it is really a case of donor capacity/quality and a willingness to undergo multiple procedures potentially in future. Apparently many of his patients are not on Fin, so people clearly do it, but it's for you to discuss the pros and cons with several doctors and take a calculated risk, or not.

I think if you proceed without Fin then it's all the more important to save some cash to go with one of the very best surgeons with a track record of big time procedures and results. That's the path I'm likely heading down, even though I'm currently undecided when it comes to surgeons. 

[ITA]

1 hour ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Oh so it’s breezula, I believe it’s already being prescribed in Italy, perhaps @Egy can confirm.

honestly, I can't tell you ... I've never heard of breezula.

[BaronVonHairline]

1 hour ago, Maz_a said:

Regarding the topic of "Should I have a transplant without Finasteride?"; I met with a well respected hair loss surgeon in London the other week, who told me that it is really a case of donor capacity/quality and a willingness to undergo multiple procedures potentially in future. Apparently many of his patients are not on Fin, so people clearly do it, but it's for you to discuss the pros and cons with several doctors and take a calculated risk, or not.

I think if you proceed without Fin then it's all the more important to save some cash to go with one of the very best surgeons with a track record of big time procedures and results. That's the path I'm likely heading down, even though I'm currently undecided when it comes to surgeons. 

Yes, I do understand that skipping the meds almost definitely means more than one HT. I have that in mind as I think this through. As long as I feel results can be worthwhile, I am willing to consider multiple procedures. I think it's time I went and had a consult with someone and got some info and got a sense of what a long term plan might look like.

Great to hear that your doctor has lots of HT patients not on fin. I've seen 1 or 2 people on here now who have had HTs with excellent results and are not on fin, so that is very heartening. 

I really just wish they'd get hair cloning to work already though. Imagine the rush for appointments every HT doctor on Earth is going to face the day after they announce donor limitations are no longer a factor. Sadly, I don't think we'll see that happen any time soon though. The elusive cure has been 5-10 years away at least since I was 20, and I'm 40 now. It's like that Seinfeld episode in the Chinese restaurant. How long till we're seated....."oh, about five, ten minutes."

Alright, enough sad-sack ranting.

[Cristero]

3 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Oh so it’s breezula, I believe it’s already being prescribed in Italy, perhaps @Egy can confirm.

It's not prescribed in Italy, because the drug for hair loss just completed phase 2 and not even started phase 3. If you want it, you have to order it from research labs and it's pretty expensive. I'm doing like that.

I would be cautious with saying that it doesn't have side effects, as Cassiopea clearly stated in their press release that 1 guy out of 20 got HPTA axis shutdown, which is way worse than finasteride. Good news is that it was reverted after 4 weeks.

[Melvin- Admin]

12 minutes ago, Cristero said:

It's not prescribed in Italy, because the drug for hair loss just completed phase 2 and not even started phase 3. If you want it, you have to order it from research labs and it's pretty expensive. I'm doing like that.

I would be cautious with saying that it doesn't have side effects, as Cassiopea clearly stated in their press release that 1 guy out of 20 got HPTA axis shutdown, which is way worse than finasteride. Good news is that it was reverted after 4 weeks.

Oh I thought I read cassiopea was prescribing it in Italy. 

[Gabreille Nelson Mukhia]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:03 AM, BaronVonHairline said:

Hi all, 

Hoping to get some stories and see some results of those who have undergone HT but do not use Fin. 

I was on fin for a while and unfortunately I am one of the people who got horrible sides. Took me months after stopping to recover, so fin is off my list of options for good. Am open to trying min but dread the initial shed.

I know the traditional view is an HT without meds is not the best idea, but I've seen a few people on various threads say otherwise. Have been searching around trying to find threads with such results and stories, but it's hard to search this forum with such generic keywords.

Wondering if anyone has stories/threads the could link to on this forum (or others). Trying to get a sense of what is possible with just an HT long term plan that does not include any fin products, but may integrate min. 

Thanks!

Hair transplant can be done without Finasteride. However, you must be prepared to get more hair transplant procedures done in the new areas that get empty gradually. The "permanent zone" is just more immune to dihydrotestosterone. The hair on the "temporary zone" is less immune to dihydrotestosterone. Therefore, with time, even the transplanted hair will become thinner. They might even miniaturize. Therefore, you must be prepared to face that situation. 

[elduterino]

8 hours ago, Cristero said:

It's not prescribed in Italy, because the drug for hair loss just completed phase 2 and not even started phase 3. If you want it, you have to order it from research labs and it's pretty expensive. I'm doing like that.

I would be cautious with saying that it doesn't have side effects, as Cassiopea clearly stated in their press release that 1 guy out of 20 got HPTA axis shutdown, which is way worse than finasteride. Good news is that it was reverted after 4 weeks.

its not "guy" - they tested it in children aged 12 and over.

5% of those kids got this but this is not a sexual side effect unlike FIN, and the adults tested with the much more concentrated 7% twice a day version did not experience adverse effects.

The Propecia "2% sides" is a lie, a systemic drug which significantly reduces DHT in the whole body is bound to have side effects. The Indian study done later found that about 25% experienced sexual side effects on fin

Edited August 29, 2020 by elduterino

[Cristero]

19 minutes ago, elduterino said:

its not "guy" - they tested it in children aged 12 and over.

5% of those kids got this but this is not a sexual side effect unlike FIN, and the adults tested with the much more concentrated 7% twice a day version did not experience adverse effects.

The Propecia "2% sides" is a lie, a systemic drug which significantly reduces DHT in the whole body is bound to have side effects. The Indian study done later found that about 25% experienced sexual side effects on fin

While I agree with you on finasteride, you're quoting the Cassiopea's press release wrong. Taken from this one:

https://www.cassiopea.com/2020/08/27/cassiopea-receives-fda-approval-for-winlevi-clascoterone-cream-1-first-in-class-topical-acne-treatment-targeting-the-androgen-receptor/

Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis suppression may occur during or after treatment with WINLEVI. In the PK trial, HPA axis suppression was observed in 1/20 (5%) of adult subjects and 2/22 (9%) of adolescent subjects at Day 14. All subjects returned to normal HPA axis function at follow-up 4 weeks after stopping treatment. Conditions which augment systemic absorption include use over large surface areas, prolonged use, and the use of occlusive dressings. Attempt to withdraw use if HPA axis suppression develops.

It clearly says adults and actually it was even worse with teenagers.

[elduterino]

ok fair enough, they tested the drug in individuals with acne so its either kids, or young adults. You can see that young adults had about half the incidence of this effect compared to children so its clearly age related

And, its not "guys" because the study was done on both sexes..and we know from other studies that HPA axis suppression is more frequent in females.

The Hair loss age men group did not experience similar issues ..us older baldies, battle-hardened guys are going to be just fine 

For acne, the other effective drug option is Accutane and the side effects includes babies born with deformities from women users, permanent skin drying and kids killing themselves..

I was given Accutane when I had issues with acne as a teenager, and when I saw the list especially the irreversible skin drying, I decided to throw the package to the bin.

Even though there isn't any drug in the world with zero side effects, this level of side effect is not going to scare most men into not using it.

 its going to be like a minoxidil where 99% have no issues and no one refuses to use it due the fear of side effects, even though it does have a list of side effects as well.

Edited August 29, 2020 by elduterino

[Cristero]

This was supposed to be a safe alternative  to finasteride finally, especially for young guys wanting to avoid taking finasteride before their 20s. I'm afraid to tell you HPTA axis suppression is way worse than killing 5-ar. 

Just to be clear, HPTA suppression happens with exogenous androgens or several anabolic substances, like nandrolone. After using them, you need to use a post cycle treatment in order to restart your HPTA. Having secondary hypogonadism and being on TRT for the rest of my life thanks to finasteride as well, I can't just shrug my shoulders, pretending this is not alarming. And I don't even believe everyone will be fine after 4 weeks, just stopping the medicatioN. This is a huge disappointment.

That being said, I'm using it since a while to maintain my hair while on TRT, because I can't touch 5-ar inhibitors anymore, and I have 0 side effects. But in my case the HPTA is already suppressed, since I'm using exogenous testosterone.

[elduterino]

@Cristero 

so you are taking testosterone and using Clascoterone ,  how does it work for your hair ?

Are your issues due to using FIN  ? I was on FIN for 6 years, never heard of such side effect

Edited August 29, 2020 by elduterino

[hybonix]

Not take things off topic, but I took the plunge into oral fin. It’s the only proven drug to help prevent/stop hair loss until another safer product hits the market. Going to start off with .25mg every day for 3 months then switch to .5mg for every day for a year. Wish me luck on the sides, but lower dosage will help me monitor/manage it better I hope. If I lose my dick, it’s the risk I took with many hours of research. I think everyone should be required to research it heavily before taking the pill. Or take some type of comprehensive knowledge check. Just my two cents. 

[elduterino]

@hybonix

why .25mg ? start with 1mg right away, time is the essence you want to protect as much as possible what you have now, not what you will have left in one year.

When I started the pill in 1998, there was't all this talk about side effects, just the famous "only 2% get it" and the assumption was that it will halt MPB for as long as you use it..which both turned out wrong..but..nevertheless I am now so thankful for the drug back then, and the fact that I did not wait.

And make sure to add Minox and a few proven supplements such as

MSM

Biotin 

Chondroitin Sulfate

 

 

[Cristero]

4 hours ago, elduterino said:

@Cristero 

so you are taking testosterone and using Clascoterone ,  how does it work for your hair ?

Are your issues due to using FIN  ? I was on FIN for 6 years, never heard of such side effect

I had a terrible shed for 2 months when I started clascoterone which I never had with anything else, but despite the shed, my hairs are looking better.

I'm only taking 140 mg per week, that puts me on high end physiological range. I'm able to maintain with clascoterone at the moment and I'm supposed to have a first hair transplant soon hopefully. We will see how it will behave in the next years.

Did you manage to maintain with clascoterone during the years? What Norwood are you and how aggressive was you AGA?

[elduterino]

yes I was able to maintain with C (Clascoterone is a long name lets just call it C). 20 mg a day is a bit low but that depends on how long your hair is, very short hair will require a lot less. When I had a 1 guard cut all over I also used 20mg a day and it worked fine.

I also use Minox and Stemoxydine and both help lower the C amount as the 3 work in synergy.

In the Breezula studies they used a lot more C but that's also because people did not use anything else

for the HT I switched back to FIN for 1-2 months before I was able to apply topicals again, and used oral minox as well.

I was a Nw2.5 before the two HT

Edited August 29, 2020 by elduterino

[hybonix]

41 minutes ago, elduterino said:

@hybonix

why .25mg ? start with 1mg right away, time is the essence you want to protect as much as possible what you have now, not what you will have left in one year.

When I started the pill in 1998, there was't all this talk about side effects, just the famous "only 2% get it" and the assumption was that it will halt MPB for as long as you use it..which both turned out wrong..but..nevertheless I am now so thankful for the drug back then, and the fact that I did not wait.

And make sure to add Minox and a few proven supplements such as

MSM

Biotin 

Chondroitin Sulfate

It’s just a start to monitor to ensure I have no crazy sides. Also, I’m not doing minoxidil as H&W told me that’s a no no due to the poor affects it has on your collagen and that it only helps for the first 6 months and is not that great. I can take biotin supplements though. Any mg you recommend for biotin supplements? Daily dosage as well there?

Edited August 29, 2020 by hybonix

[Cristero]

1 hour ago, elduterino said:

yes I was able to maintain with C (Clascoterone is a long name lets just call it C). 20 mg a day is a bit low but that depends on how long your hair is, very short hair will require a lot less. When I had a 1 guard cut all over I also used 20mg a day and it worked fine.

I also use Minox and Stemoxydine and both help lower the C amount as the 3 work in synergy.

In the Breezula studies they used a lot more C but that's also because people did not use anything else

for the HT I switched back to FIN for 1-2 months before I was able to apply topicals again, and used oral minox as well.

I was a Nw2.5 before the two HT

It's crazy you managed to keep your hairs with only 20 mg of clascoterone. I'm using 150 mg everyday in one application at night, along with adenosine as a growth agonist. I also dermastamp once a week and I'll probably add 17-a estradiol and Azelaic Acid after the HT.

It seems your hairloss was pretty mild and maybe it would have stopped by itself after reaching NW 3

[hybonix]

Already experiencing headaches/cloudiness from first two doses. No, it’s not placebo, but I hear this typically subsides after one week of usage as my body is not used to fin yet.

[LonelyGraft]

On 8/28/2020 at 11:06 PM, elduterino said:

its not "guy" - they tested it in children aged 12 and over.

5% of those kids got this but this is not a sexual side effect unlike FIN, and the adults tested with the much more concentrated 7% twice a day version did not experience adverse effects.

The Propecia "2% sides" is a lie, a systemic drug which significantly reduces DHT in the whole body is bound to have side effects. The Indian study done later found that about 25% experienced sexual side effects on fin

Wtf you’re brushing off hpta suppression Bc it’s not a “sexual side effect?” Is this real life?