Dr. Koray Erdogan 5000 grafts

[Der3k7]

2 minutes ago, jonnyalex said:

Is this a serious question ? 😝

Yes lol. They're ready to take me any time now within a 6 week booking period and the surgeon says he'd be able to strengthen the areas I'm concerned about and sill still have 1000 grafts left for future 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Der3k7

[jonnyalex]

Their results, at least the ones we see here, are no longer in the stratosphere. They are levels above ASMED.

[Der3k7]

Sounds good to me. I'm just so mad so many grafts I've had are wasted. I could have looked like Johnny bravo my whole  life with 9,800 donor capacity 

[Gasthoerer]

My 2 cents:

A) I would be disappointed with 2000 + 5000 grafts considering your starting point

B) Your hair looks still good and natural (both recipient and donor, ASMED did a great job as always at the donor management).

What I want to say is: There is no need to hurry.

If you have another failure, you might be in a really bad situation. I also do not by in your story that it only can be because of ASMED. It can also be your body be not made for FUE or any HT including strip. To simply go to another clinic is a high risk. That you go to a similar style clinic is mind blowing to me. 

Summary:

My first recommendation is to wait and stay put, but my feeling says you are not that guy.

If you have to do it, go to a "all-by the doc clinic" with another method...maybe implanter pen and have a very small test case. 300 FUE for the hairline can do wonders (just look at my case). If it is a success you can go ahead and if not: Go for FUT or stop. 

Good luck. 

 

 

[Der3k7]

23 minutes ago, Gasthoerer said:

My 2 cents:

A) I would be disappointed with 2000 + 5000 grafts considering your starting point

B) Your hair looks still good and natural (both recipient and donor, ASMED did a great job as always at the donor management).

What I want to say is: There is no need to hurry.

If you have another failure, you might be in a really bad situation. I also do not by in your story that it only can be because of ASMED. It can also be your body be not made for FUE or any HT including strip. To simply go to another clinic is a high risk. That you go to a similar style clinic is mind blowing to me. 

Summary:

My first recommendation is to wait and stay put, but my feeling says you are not that guy.

If you have to do it, go to a "all-by the doc clinic" with another method...maybe implanter pen and have a very small test case. 300 FUE for the hairline can do wonders (just look at my case). If it is a success you can go ahead and if not: Go for FUT or stop. 

Good luck. 

 

 

I honestly doubt that the contribution of genetic factors to the variance in yield from a hair transplant is high enough to explain my very poor yield for both surgeries.

 

Like I said I really doubt that the contribution to variance in yield of a hair transplant is more than 25% due to genetics. I think the biggest contributing factor to the variance in yield for any particular hair transplant is from the surgery itself assuming proper post op care by the patient. I'll continue to believe that unless there is a proper study that honestly shows genetics are a genuinely higher factor in the variance of yield and I would want to know a physiological mechanism of it as well. Here's a study of factors affecting survival rate 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956960/#sec1-1title

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Der3k7

[Fozzie]

Personally, if I was down to my last few thousand grafts and wanted to give myself the best shot at resolving any specific issue I had with my hair, I'd be heading to either H&W or Dr Konior. I'd consult with both and get their opinion. Yes there are other surgeons whose work is great, but for me those two have an edge over the rest. Think you mentioned you've had some contact with Dr Couto and yes he has some fantastic looking results on his site and Youtube but as mentioned, not sure there are quite enough patient reviews out there.

Saying that, think Gasthoerer has provide some useful advice.

[Der3k7]

Just now, Fozzie said:

Personally, if I was down to my last few thousand grafts and wanted to give myself the best shot at resolving any specific issue I had with my hair, I'd be heading to either H&W or Dr Konior. I'd consult with both and get their opinion. Yes there are other surgeons whose work is great, but for me those two have an edge over the rest. Think you mentioned you've had some contact with Dr Couto and yes he has some fantastic looking results on his site and Youtube but as mentioned, not sure there are quite enough patient reviews out there.

Saying that, think Gasthoerer has provide some useful advice.

Yeah I feel pretty confident with H and w they have a lot of great reviews online and they are very responsive and easy to communicate with and short wait list. Definitely probably going to schedule 1500-1800 grafts with them next year

[Gasthoerer]

21 hours ago, Der3k7 said:

Like I said I really doubt that the contribution to variance in yield of a hair transplant is more than 25% due to genetics. I think the biggest contributing factor to the variance in yield for any particular hair transplant is from the surgery itself assuming proper post op care by the patient.  

Well, you can believe but this is not about religion. The problem is, that there is no prove and if you are wrong you might be at rock-bottom. Why taking such a gamble on your personal live without need? You have to live with this result for decades! A small test case can be a huge win but a low risk (just look at my case). 

My final question: How do you explain the amount of poor FUT results even from the very best clinics like H&W, Feriduni etc. presented in here? Did the clinics on this particular day mishandled all the grafts? Especially for FUT this is highly unlikely IMO as extraction is out of the equation. 

I leave it like that. You have to make up your own mind, but "believe" and "bro-science" is not a good advisor. 

P.S. Your link provides no information which supports your believe. 

[Der3k7]

Seriously? Bro science? What "bro" science did I present? I have a degree in physics from a top university I don't fall for "bro" science. And I presented the link to show a study that simply discusses the major factors that go into how well a surgery yields for someone. It's interesting that a black box "genetic factor" was not mentioned.

Also, Assume you are right and I am genetically doomed to always have poor yield. If this is the case, waiting on a surgery would make no difference because even if I waited and decided to do it later, the yield would still be poor and it would be the same situation. 

I'm going to go through with the 1500-1800 graft procedure next year around this time like H&W recommended 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Der3k7

[Gasthoerer]

10 minutes ago, Der3k7 said:

Seriously? Bro science? What "bro" science did I present? 

Well, you presented a theory based on superficial and self-made ideas and conclusions. And the paper you presented has as the major conclusion "Many factors influence graft survival, and it is often difficult to determine specifically their relative importance. " Basically, this entire paper says: We don't know anything but holding solution might be one important factor. Summary: Your theory is the prototype of "bro-science", which this forum is flooded with. 

And by the way, I neither said you are stupid nor do I think you are. I think your are vain (like we all are), young and impatient, and all this effects you decision making. And therefore you try to make the world like you want it to be. 

Again, please explain the poor results of strip surgery from H&W, Feriduni, Cooley, Bisanga, … 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Gasthoerer

[Guy73]

On 9/26/2019 at 11:57 AM, Der3k7 said:

Sounds good to me. I'm just so mad so many grafts I've had are wasted. I could have looked like Johnny bravo my whole  life with 9,800 donor capacity 

I don’t understand? Looking at your pictures early on in the process, it looked like most of the hair grew with in the first 10 days? That’s a good sign that the grafts took? So are you saying when they shed they many grafts did not grow back??

[Der3k7]

8 minutes ago, Guy73 said:

I don’t understand? Looking at your pictures early on in the process, it looked like most of the hair grew with in the first 10 days? That’s a good sign that the grafts took? So are you saying when they shed they many grafts did not grow back??

Yes? My baseline immediately pre op compared to my change above baseline after the  final result now at 11 months for 5000 grafts is very sub par. The yield was low which means many grafts died and did not grow. My improvement after shock loss was mostly regrowing of native hair that I lost due to shock loss

[Gasthoerer]

12 minutes ago, Guy73 said:

 Looking at your pictures early on in the process, it looked like most of the hair grew with in the first 10 days? That’s a good sign that the grafts took? 

The hair does not grow in the first days, it is just getting pushed out. 

[Der3k7]

What are you talking about man. I'm not talking about expecting a good result in the first few days. Have you not read this thread? I am 11 months post op right now almost. I am talking about now vs what my hair was like right before the procedure.

[Guy73]

11 minutes ago, Gasthoerer said:

The hair does not grow in the first days, it is just getting pushed out. 

Pushed out? Explain?

[Der3k7]

Pretty sure he's talking about the process of how the graft is accepted under the skin but goes dormant and the hair that was attached eventually sheds while the graft rests and then eventually starts growing again. And actually it is not uncommon for the transplanted hair to continue to grow for the first week before shedding. But that is completely beside the point of this threat. 

[Guy73]

3 minutes ago, Der3k7 said:

Pretty sure he's talking about the process of how the graft is accepted under the skin but goes dormant and the hair that was attached eventually sheds while the graft rests and then eventually starts growing again. And actually it is not uncommon for the transplanted hair to continue to grow for the first week before shedding. But that is completely beside the point of this threat. 

Ok, I was asking because I have been through this process 3 times so I only can speak for me. Some grafts break off early on and some shed with in the month and some just keep growing! That how it was for me 3 times. I took tons of pics. But in your case it I would think if the graft was not going to take it would have does early on? It is possible in any shockloss that it does not return even with your existing hair. 

[Guy73]

55 minutes ago, Der3k7 said:

What are you talking about man. I'm not talking about expecting a good result in the first few days. Have you not read this thread? I am 11 months post op right now almost. I am talking about now vs what my hair was like right before the procedure.

That’s why I was surprised because you did start out good. My 2 cents for what it’s worth. All comes down to graft count per sq cm. Do you even know what that is in your case? As it has been explained to me 30-35 grafts per sq cm from front to mid scalp is typical and could yield a 98% growth in most cases. Anything they do above that those number start dropping. Now some surgeons calm because of their unique process they can do more but I don’t buy into that. Anything over those counts is a gamble plain and simple. It’s best to do separate procedures at those same numbers to build up density this way at least what get transplanted grows. 

[jonnyalex]

45 minutes ago, Guy73 said:

That’s why I was surprised because you did start out good. My 2 cents for what it’s worth. All comes down to graft count per sq cm. Do you even know what that is in your case? As it has been explained to me 30-35 grafts per sq cm from front to mid scalp is typical and could yield a 98% growth in most cases. Anything they do above that those number start dropping. Now some surgeons calm because of their unique process they can do more but I don’t buy into that. Anything over those counts is a gamble plain and simple. It’s best to do separate procedures at those same numbers to build up density this way at least what get transplanted grows. 

I'm not so sure it is best to do separate procedures. I thought the same until I watched a H&W video, where it was explained scar tissue and tethering under the skin after a previous surgery will almost certainly ensure the ultimate result is not as good.

They suggest you get it right the first time by seeing the right surgeon. This is what ultimately impacts upon the result. Their job is considerably more difficult when they have to work around and even implant IN existing scar tissue. It is perhaps for this reason they are hesitant to transplant the amount of grafts he requested and instead recommend half. He will already have considerable scar tissue and scar tethering.

Edited September 29, 2019 by jonnyalex

[Guy73]

3 minutes ago, jonnyalex said:

I'm not so sure it is best to do separate procedures. I thought the same until I watched a H&W video, where it was explained scar tissue and tethering under the skin after a previous surgery will almost certainly ensure the ultimate result is not as good.

They suggest you get it right the first time by seeing the right surgeon. This is what ultimately impacts upon the result.

Now this is coming from hasson and Wong? The same place that did multiple procedures on joe tilman? If you look close at his videos showing the 3 repairs he did with them he definitely improved each time. My doctor said he has never seen a patient look worse after multiple procedures. 

[Der3k7]

5 minutes ago, Guy73 said:

Now this is coming from hasson and Wong? The same place that did multiple procedures on joe tilman? If you look close at his videos showing the 3 repairs he did with them he definitely improved each time. My doctor said he has never seen a patient look worse after multiple procedures. 

You're misunderstanding what he is saying. He is not saying that surgery 2, 3 and so on will yield no improvement. He is saying that it becomes likely as the number of surgeries increases that the yield per surgery will decrease as the number of surgeries goes up due to non Virgin scalp tissue. This is completely consistent with improvement upon consecutive surgeries. It's similar to the idea of "diminishing returns"

Edited September 29, 2019 by Der3k7

[jonnyalex]

7 minutes ago, Guy73 said:

Now this is coming from hasson and Wong? The same place that did multiple procedures on joe tilman? If you look close at his videos showing the 3 repairs he did with them he definitely improved each time. My doctor said he has never seen a patient look worse after multiple procedures. 

Yes, but Joe Tillman was slick bald and began with a botched hair transplant which required multiple repairs. You can only get better from that point no matter what. 

I did not say you will look worse. I said that they suggest you get it right the first time for the best result.

Subsequent work can be done but nothing is as good as doing it right in the first go due to scarring under the skin. Implanting into scar tissue is not the same as untouched skin. Scars can tether (connect) under the skin which can obviously affect the yield.

Joe recently had his 10th hair transplant with them. If you watch his video, Dr. Wong mentions at one point that he will do what he can while pointing out that he'll have to see what the existing scar tethering will actually allow.

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by jonnyalex

[Guy73]

7 minutes ago, Der3k7 said:

You're misunderstanding what he is saying. He is not saying that surgery 2, 3 and so on will yield no improvement. He is saying that it becomes likely as the number of surgeries increases that the yield per surgery will decrease as the number of surgeries goes up due to non Virgin scalp tissue. This is completely consistent with improvement upon consecutive surgeries. It's similar to the idea of "diminishing returns"

I kinda guess it depends on the type of procedure you get. For me I have had all 3 done with the choa pen tool DHI method with a modified tip to lessen the trauma. I must say after my first two procedures at a close look they look like they all grew but who knows. I just had a 3rd done so can’t say for sure this time but I am at 10 days and things look good!!

[jonnyalex]

6 minutes ago, Der3k7 said:

You're misunderstanding what he is saying. He is not saying that surgery 2, 3 and so on will yield no improvement. He is saying that it becomes likely as the number of surgeries increases that the yield per surgery will decrease as the number of surgeries goes up due to non Virgin scalp tissue. This is completely consistent with improvement upon consecutive surgeries. It's similar to the idea of "diminishing returns"

This is exactly what I mean, yes. Obviously you'll still have growth.

In your case, you have an incredible donor area and I think you should also consider Dr. Hasson. If he thinks he can use more grafts, he will. I have seen a case of him fixing a density lacking hairline from a Turkish clinic which end in a fantastic result. 

I'm really interested in your case and crossing my fingers for you and anyone in a situation like this. I just wish that there was some kind of DHT blocker you could take. I'm always so perplexed by how you can take a bunch of people and the same drug effects them differently. It's a shame.

[Guy73]

10 minutes ago, jonnyalex said:

Yes, but Joe Tillman was slick bald and began with a botched hair transplant which required multiple repairs. You can only get better from that point no matter what. 

I did not say you will look worse. I said that they suggest you get it right the first time for the best result.

Subsequent work can be done but nothing is as good as doing it right in the first go due to scarring under the skin. Implanting into scar tissue is not the same as untouched skin. Scars can tether (connect) under the skin which can obviously affect the yield.

Joe recently had his 10th hair transplant with them. If you watch his video, Dr. Wong mentions at one point that he will do what he can while pointing out that he'll have to see what the existing scar tethering will actually allow.

 

Yeah I do remember him saying that. I think the implanter tool helps if you started with that. Less scarring.