3600 Grafts - Dr Koray Erdogan 13th March 2018

[Gasthoerer]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:58 PM, Payam said:

Of course I will correspond with the clinic, I have questions I want them to answer which they are extremely reluctant to, and when they do the answers leave a lot to be desired, like the example above. How can 2800 grafts in that are have been too low, would you accept that explanation?

Payam, what kind of explanation to you expect? Honestly, even the best clinics have poor results with terrible growth (worse than yours). So far no one knows why. What you could have asked, before you started the sh.tstorm would have been: Do they have a rating about you grafts? How easy was it to extract them etc. Now, there is nothing to gain any more. 

[Payam]

On 12/21/2018 at 8:51 PM, JeanLDD said:

I think you already know the growth was bad, and I think the only reason you’re asking the questions is so you can complain about the answers on here.

People take more notice dependent on tone, and I do think it’s obvious that you’re the type to just ignore things that are said more casually. 

Youre better off consulting clinics that are to your liking and fixing the problem ASAP than complaining for over two years about an easily fixable problem like HT012 did. The questions you’re asking are below your intelligence level and are outright dumb, you’re clearly smart enough to know the yield was poor and can see it in the preops. It’s obvious the only reason you’re asking and continuing correspondence is so you can complain about the response here.

Maybe you’re happy asking dumb questions when you’ve already made up your mind about the clinic and your result, but I strongly doubt it and  think you’d be a million times happier if you booked with a clinic more suited to your liking like Koniors with Nadimi and fixing the problem asap. Honestly your result isn’t even that bad, the density is poor but easily fixable.

You constantly sound like you’re freaking out and want help, being helpful isn’t patting you on the head and saying “who’s a good boy” like some people here want to, it’s telling you that complaining doesn’t fix a poor yield, but a touch up with a clinic that takes a more tailored and slower approach like Konior/nadimi, Keser, lupanzula, Baubac etc will help. You should consult clinics like these and make a booking rather than dwelling on a problem that is very, very small if you don’t have financial issues with more work.

 

You have it all backwards, usually adults will respond to an adult tone, when you write like a petulant child it's all the easier to ignore you.

I will keep posting my monthly updates obviously, at least until the two year mark, between those i will voice my opinions and concerns with the clinic, also I am of course having talks with several clinics and will start a new thread about my repair in due time so no worries there, that is unrelated to this thread though. 

My observations have led me to the following conclusion, something I wish I knew before booking my surgery: Asmed regularly quotes guys far more grafts than other clinics, this is a well known fact. Now skim over some of the better results in this forum where an inordinate number of grafts were used (far more than any other clinic would have in the same area), and take note of how many patients speak about needing a touch up due to multigrafts in the hairline or that they have density issues. And if they do return they are once again quoted ludicrous graft counts. So even some of the better Asmed results have issues as stated by the patients themselves, despite the fact that Asmed uses far more grafts than any other surgeon in the world, how exactly does this add up? I know full well you sometimes need a second pass to achieve full coverage, but with these graft numbers? 

On top of this you have obvious negligence shown in pretty much any given Asmed case with the doubles and triples placed in the first two rows of the hairline which the clinic can't seem to explain, coupled with the ridiculous claim that 2800 grafts wasn't enough for full coverage In my case is just, for lack of better words, shady as fuck.

If you have any doubts, look at what guys like lorenzo, de freitas, couto, konoir and even someone as new as Nadimi consistently achieve with FAR less graft numbers.

I mean not a single one of the other 3 guys who did surgery the same day as me are happy ranging from density issues to unnatural looking hairlines, this is what happens when you have the FUE factory approach Asmed uses.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Payam

[JayLDD]

1 hour ago, Payam said:

You have it all backwards, usually adults will respond to an adult tone, when you write like a petulant child it's all the easier to ignore you.

I will keep posting my monthly updates obviously, at least until the two year mark, between those i will voice my opinions and concerns with the clinic, also I am of course having talks with several clinics and will start a new thread about my repair in due time so no worries there, that is unrelated to this thread though. 

My observations have led me to the following conclusion, something I wish I knew before booking my surgery: Asmed regularly quotes guys far more grafts than other clinics, this is a well known fact. Now skim over some of the better results in this forum where an inordinate number of grafts were used (far more than any other clinic would have in the same area), and take note of how many patients speak about needing a touch up due to multigrafts in the hairline or that they have density issues. And if they do return they are once again quoted ludicrous graft counts. So even some of the better Asmed results have issues as stated by the patients themselves, despite the fact that Asmed uses far more grafts than any other surgeon in the world, how exactly does this add up? I know full well you sometimes need a second pass to achieve full coverage, but with these graft numbers? 

On top of this you have obvious negligence shown in pretty much any given Asmed case with the doubles and triples placed in the first two rows of the hairline which the clinic can't seem to explain, coupled with the ridiculous claim that 2800 grafts wasn't enough for full coverage In my case is just, for lack of better words, shady as fuck.

If you have any doubts, look at what guys like lorenzo, de freitas, couto, konoir and even someone as new as Nadimi consistently achieve with FAR less graft numbers.

I mean not a single one of the other 3 guys who did surgery the same day as me are happy ranging from density issues to unnatural looking hairlines, this is what happens when you have the FUE factory approach Asmed uses.

Ok lets talk about being an adult.

Payam, you're the guy that on one of the other major hairloss forums goes on every Erdogan thread *literally* saying things such as that they "will be butchered" (direct quote) if they go to Erdogan (who has literally hundreds of positive patient reviews online, more than any other surgeon I've seen in the past 5 years and is the vice-president of the World FUE organisation with constant innovation in the area). You're also PMing people along with HT012 (who also made fake accounts) telling people how bad he is.  You also say he ruined your life the procedure makes you miserable. 

You're also the guy that spent ten thousand dollars on a procedure with a clinic with hundreds of reviews available online on sites like this, and didn't spend FIVE MINUTES reading one that said techs did the extractions. Almost every review of ASMED here mentions it and this fact is a quick Google search away, does an adult book a ten thousand dollar surgical procedure without reading a SINGLE patient review?

And top of that you're the guy that lies and make misleading comments about the clinics correspondence which clearly doesn't mention Erdogan doing the extractions anywhere and explicitly mentions a surgical team doing parts of the surgery. You outright were suggesting in the first 2 months and even first few days that your procedure was probably a failure. You said you were at 6 months when you were barely past 5 for no particular reason other than probably cause a bigger stink.

After that, you organise consults with surgeons with multiple year waiting lists (so you can complain for longer rather than actually fixing your problem) and whine and complain about your correspondence with the clinic. Complain about your correspondence with them after posting on another forum that anyone else who goes there will be "butchered" and that the procedure "ruined my life". Any other clinic in the world would either have blocked your number or be taking legal action. Supposedly they ruined your life and yet you do nothing to fix the problem but whine on the forum. Is this the adult option? Does an adult whine on a forum and book consults for surgeons with 4 year waiting lists about an easily fixable issue that they supposedly have the money to fix rather than actually addressing it?

No name calling, just reality Payam.

"I mean not a single one of the other 3 guys who did surgery the same day as me are happy ranging from density issues to unnatural looking hairlines, this is what happens when you have the FUE factory approach Asmed uses."

If this is true Payam, why are results of 90% of the surgeries at ASMED that are posted by patients upfront from day one ranging from acceptable to very good? (and someone did a statistical analysis here of this too) When I first researched clinics I roughly tallied success rates and continue to note that which I see among top surgeons, ASMED still are among the highest. You can't compare results of a doctor like Nadimi with literally less than 5 FUE results against ASMED with hundreds and hundreds; but again that goes to the above points, most certainly an adult wouldn't do this, but maybe someone in their 30s that hasn't yet reached adulthood or learnt the basics of statistics might do so.

" despite the fact that Asmed uses far more grafts than any other surgeon in the world"

That is outright false, another one of your subtlely dishonest points that slips through for people who don't know better, I've seen you comparing hairline cases where Erdogan does a full temple point reconstruction to the graft numbers of another surgeon only in the hairline and without adding density to thinning areas behind the hairline either. Its not that you're too braindead to know or see this Payam, you're just being dishonest and hoping that people who don't know any better or noobies will think you're right and vindicate your little crusade. 

"how many patients speak about needing a touch up due to multigrafts in the hairline"

For the record, the only person who had this as a primary concern was this guy, and this is what his hairline looked like:

 

 

I guarantee you if any other surgeon produced this result, or you saw this on the street without knowing it was a hair transplant, NO ONE would think it looked unnatural or that it had an issue with multigrafts, PERIOD. It isn't a serious issue in your case either, people aren't shoving their eye socket into your hairline Payam, no one in the real world is looking at it with an extreme closeup in harsh lighting except for you when you take a photo to badmouth the clinic.

 

Before I was harsh but gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you weren't deliberately trying to come off so childishly, after seeing your posts on the other forum telling everyone you could about being butchered and that they'd be butchered  if they went to the clinic ((again you explicitly used this term multiple times) its obvious you're just a vindictive, childish person.

 

 

 

 

 

[HT0416]

You cant hide the fact that in every Asmed thread on here a touch up is needed due to multi hair grafts in hairline and density issues. Some patients like myself and Payam have voiced our concerns and others like yourself Jean have gone back to Asmed quietly to get the fix done.

Not everyone wants to jump into surgery every couple of months. going for a mega session you would think another wont be needed considering the grafts.

 

Fake accounts?

 

 

 

[Payam]

2 hours ago, JeanLDD said:

Ok lets talk about being an adult.

Payam, you're the guy that on one of the other major hairloss forums goes on every Erdogan thread *literally* saying things such as that they "will be butchered" (direct quote) if they go to Erdogan (who has literally hundreds of positive patient reviews online, more than any other surgeon I've seen in the past 5 years and is the vice-president of the World FUE organisation with constant innovation in the area). You're also PMing people along with HT012 (who also made fake accounts) telling people how bad he is.  You also say he ruined your life the procedure makes you miserable. 

You're also the guy that spent ten thousand dollars on a procedure with a clinic with hundreds of reviews available online on sites like this, and didn't spend FIVE MINUTES reading one that said techs did the extractions. Almost every review of ASMED here mentions it and this fact is a quick Google search away, does an adult book a ten thousand dollar surgical procedure without reading a SINGLE patient review?

And top of that you're the guy that lies and make misleading comments about the clinics correspondence which clearly doesn't mention Erdogan doing the extractions anywhere and explicitly mentions a surgical team doing parts of the surgery. You outright were suggesting in the first 2 months and even first few days that your procedure was probably a failure. You said you were at 6 months when you were barely past 5 for no particular reason other than probably cause a bigger stink.

After that, you organise consults with surgeons with multiple year waiting lists (so you can complain for longer rather than actually fixing your problem) and whine and complain about your correspondence with the clinic. Complain about your correspondence with them after posting on another forum that anyone else who goes there will be "butchered" and that the procedure "ruined my life". Any other clinic in the world would either have blocked your number or be taking legal action. Supposedly they ruined your life and yet you do nothing to fix the problem but whine on the forum. Is this the adult option? Does an adult whine on a forum and book consults for surgeons with 4 year waiting lists about an easily fixable issue that they supposedly have the money to fix rather than actually addressing it?

No name calling, just reality Payam.

"I mean not a single one of the other 3 guys who did surgery the same day as me are happy ranging from density issues to unnatural looking hairlines, this is what happens when you have the FUE factory approach Asmed uses."

If this is true Payam, why are results of 90% of the surgeries at ASMED that are posted by patients upfront from day one ranging from acceptable to very good? (and someone did a statistical analysis here of this too) When I first researched clinics I roughly tallied success rates and continue to note that which I see among top surgeons, ASMED still are among the highest. You can't compare results of a doctor like Nadimi with literally less than 5 FUE results against ASMED with hundreds and hundreds; but again that goes to the above points, most certainly an adult wouldn't do this, but maybe someone in their 30s that hasn't yet reached adulthood or learnt the basics of statistics might do so.

" despite the fact that Asmed uses far more grafts than any other surgeon in the world"

That is outright false, another one of your subtlely dishonest points that slips through for people who don't know better, I've seen you comparing hairline cases where Erdogan does a full temple point reconstruction to the graft numbers of another surgeon only in the hairline and without adding density to thinning areas behind the hairline either. Its not that you're too braindead to know or see this Payam, you're just being dishonest and hoping that people who don't know any better or noobies will think you're right and vindicate your little crusade. 

"how many patients speak about needing a touch up due to multigrafts in the hairline"

For the record, the only person who had this as a primary concern was this guy, and this is what his hairline looked like:

I guarantee you if any other surgeon produced this result, or you saw this on the street without knowing it was a hair transplant, NO ONE would think it looked unnatural or that it had an issue with multigrafts, PERIOD. It isn't a serious issue in your case either, people aren't shoving their eye socket into your hairline Payam, no one in the real world is looking at it with an extreme closeup in harsh lighting except for you when you take a photo to badmouth the clinic. Before I was harsh but gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you weren't deliberately trying to come off so childishly, after seeing your posts on the other forum telling everyone you could about being butchered and that they'd be butchered  if they went to the clinic ((again you explicitly used this term multiple times) its obvious you're just a vindictive, childish person.

Alright i'll bite, i know you don't have the reading comprehension of a middle schooler so the only conclusion i can draw from some of your posts is that you are deliberately misrepresenting what i write for the sake of discrediting me, or maybe you are just trolling for the sake of it, either way i bolded the important part for you;

I have never once PM'd anyone saying they shouldn't go to Asmed, i discouraged someone in this thread of going to Asmed a single time and removed my post quickly after, that's it, and even though i sometimes use harsh language (yes i have used the word "butchered"), i am yet to explicitly tell anyone not to go with Asmed save for that one time.

You keep diverting attention to the facts that techs do the extrations, but one of my main criticisms of this clinic has been the fact that they do FOUR parallel surgeries a day, this is not something they will tell you anywhere and infact you can check out Stephens video where he also talks about how shocked he was about this, and how rushed the surgery was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=433AmFqzG6E And even though Stephen decided to go back, you cannot disregard his first shitty experience.

I'm not going to comment on the statistics you keep pulling from thin air, but for anyone that cares Dr Baubac has nearly the same number of clinic posted results as Asmed from 2017-2018, strange that, considering Asmed supposedly churns out 4 times the number of surgeries a day. Maybe Asmed patients don't own cameras to send their updates to the clinic, or maybe the fact of the matter is that a large number of of Asmed results are average AT BEST and the clinic has no intention of posting them online, your guess is as good as mine.

And I won't comment on the naturalness of the case above out of respect for the patient but i will say this as i feel it illustrates my point perfectly: who looks at this and says, "yeah you probably need another 1200 grafts in the frontal third" when his mid scalp is obviously thinning, really? This guy needed 1200 grafts for what? You and me both know any other clinic would have AT MOST quoted half of that to soften the hairline and add some density, in fact there is a H&W case on this very forum where exactly that happened. It's cheaper for the clinic in the long run to cram as many grafts in there as possible now so they don't have to deal with this guy in the future, because they know fully well that their yields leave a lot to be desired. A rushed and tech heavy clinic with 4 patients a day will have worse yields than a meticulous one-patient-a-day clinic. Mind-boggling i know.

And lastly you keep claiming that my case is a simple fix, but i obviously don't want to blow 90% of my remaining grafts in the frontal third to fix a sub par result, not to mention the scar tissue from the first surgery making my case even more difficult, as well as now having to plan around the multihair-grafts placed in the very front of my hairline. I will have to consult several clinics and then think long and hard about how to approach this problem as any sane person would do in my situation, keeping my future hair loss in mind, this is not at all a quick and easy fix.

As for being vindictive, i'm really not, even though i have cause to be based on my experience and the clinics response to it. I recognize that this is largely my own fault for going with this clinic in the first place when their approach was completely wrong for my case. I don't believe anything i have written about the clinic so far to be false in any respect, other than posting one update a week too early which i owned up to.

And please stop talking about legal action, legal action over online criticism is something people threaten each other with in the youtube comment section, it's absolutely laughable that any top 50 clinic would attempt anything of the sort as they know fully well they have no recourse.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Payam

[hairlossPA]

the fact that this thread is 21 pages long, half of that not even related to showing progress of this procedure, is pathetic.

the fact that people are arguing this much on the internet about hair is also pathetic. don’t you guys just think to yourself wow maybe i’ll just stop responding?

do your research, pick a clinic, schedule procedure, have procedure, wait 12 months. reevaluate. that’s IT. it’s that simple

[here]

 

Anywho I think both main people have points.

1) Asmed now doing 6 patients a day from debs thread is ridiculous. It’s impossible all techs are the same quality. You teach 12 people to learn drums the same way. You will get various quality drummers. Also fatigue will start may become a factor at that patient count. With that said, at 4 they were still producing good results. Without a bad rate.

2) If you are going to freak out from a result like payams, I don’t think you should get a transplant. It’s not good... but it’s not even close to butchering etc... 

3) Payam discredits himself by exaggerating how bad things are, and wrong dates particularly at the start of this thread.

4) Jean is particularly defensive about this clinic, compared to stuff he says in other threads. Particularly when doubles in hairlines is fairly obvious in this and other patients.

Edited December 27, 2018 by here

[jjsrader]

This thread is probably the best thread on the entire website - it meanders all over the place at times.  But I really don't care. 

Everyone gets a say so - as it should be.  And Erdogan keeps pumping out 50K+ per day gross revenue and doesn't engage here.

It's a very good case study and throughout the thread many types of surgical approaches (pros & cons) are discussed.

Thread delivers page views for sure!

Edited December 27, 2018 by jjsrader

[PGDMMB]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:08 AM, here said:

 

Anywho I think both main people have points.

1) Asmed now doing 6 patients a day from debs thread is ridiculous. It’s impossible all techs are the same quality. You teach 12 people to learn drums the same way. You will get various quality drummers. Also fatigue will start may become a factor at that patient count. With that said, at 4 they were still producing good results. Without a bad rate.

2) If you are going to freak out from a result like payams, I don’t think you should get a transplant. It’s not good... but it’s not even close to butchering etc... 

3) Payam discredits himself by exaggerating how bad things are, and wrong dates particularly at the start of this thread.

4) Jean is particularly defensive about this clinic, compared to stuff he says in other threads. Particularly when doubles in hairlines is fairly obvious in this and other patients.

Did you just say asmed are now taking 6 paitents per day!??

[FarsanUk]

7 minutes ago, PGDMMB said:

Did you just say asmed are now taking 6 paitents per day!??

I'm an asmed patient too. Yes my co ordinator confirmed to me when I was there it's 6 patients per day however my first day it was 3 second was 6. Now they have a new clinic and more surgery rooms. Infact if you go to their intstagram they have a video story where they show the big screen where Dr Erdogan views all surgeries. The big screen had 9 different surgery rooms and 2 of them were not being used meaning at that point there was 7 surgeries you could see going on.

Edited December 31, 2018 by FarsanUk

[PGDMMB]

1 minute ago, FarsanUk said:

I'm an asmed patient too. Yes my co ordinator confirmed to me when I was there it's 6 patients per day however my first day it was 3 second was 6. Now they have a new clinic and more surgery rooms. Infact if you go to their intstagram they have a video story where they show the big screen where Dr Erdogan views all surgeries. The big screen had 9 different surgery rooms and 2 of them were not being used meaning at that point there was 7 surgeries you could see going on.

Wow asmed is starting to sound like one of them cheap factory clinics but he’s one of the surgeons charging the higher prices in Turkey 

[FarsanUk]

7 minutes ago, PGDMMB said:

Wow asmed is starting to sound like one of them cheap factory clinics but he’s one of the surgeons charging the higher prices in Turkey 

I put a screen shot of the big screen above as you can see. Whether people are comfortable with this or not is up to them but it's important for them to know facts so that they don't complain later. My surgery was before they moved to the new one.

Edited December 31, 2018 by FarsanUk

[Kraistoff]

@FarsanUk I believe my techs were the ones in the middle . Can’t be too sure tho as I was quite drugged up from the pain killers 

[CatsMeow83]

I posted earlier today about my current decision process regarding whether to go with Erdogan, or go with Rahal in Canada (see link below to my post).  Rahal is about 50% more expensive, so I would be saving about $5,000 by going with Erdogan.  I want to get comfortable with Erdogan, but I just can't get past some of the issues raised in this thread and others.  The guy complaining in this post is definitely a little over the top, for sure, but I think it's undisputed at this point that Erdogan has between 4 and 6 procedures happening on any given day, and he is jumping between them to supervise, etc. 

Now, I certainly don't expect Erdogan or any other doctor to personally handle or oversee an entire 8 hour FUE procedure.  But I'm still uneasy about the daily volume that Erdogan is apparently juggling.  I mean, a hair transplant is still a surgical procedure, and no matter how routine or low risk, I feel like either the surgeon, the anesthesiologist, or another doctor (or, at the very least, a certified registered nurse) should be present for most, if not all, of the procedure. 

I saw a post by Dr. Erdogan responding to some of the concerns in this post, and he notes that each of his technicians are required to place at least 10,000 grafts on a simulator before they actually work on a real patient.  I didn't find this reassuring at all.  I mean, a new trainee could easily knock out 10,000 practice grafts in just a 4 or 5 day period.  I don't think I'm comfortable trusting my hairline to a technician that may only have a week's worth of practice, and may not even have any formal medical or nursing training.

I'm not trying to beat up on Erdogan or unfairly cast doubt on his abilities.  He's obviously a top tier transplant surgeon by any standard.  But I think I'm going to end up going with Rahal and forking over the extra $5,000.  I'm just not comfortable putting myself in the hands of non-medically trained technicians that may not have more than a few weeks or months of experience.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by CatsMeow83

[JayLDD]

30 minutes ago, CatsMeow83 said:

I posted earlier today about my current decision process regarding whether to go with Erdogan, or go with Rahal in Canada (see link below to my post).  Rahal is about 50% more expensive, so I would be saving about $5,000 by going with Erdogan.  I want to get comfortable with Erdogan, but I just can't get past some of the issues raised in this thread and others.  The guy complaining in this post is definitely a little over the top, for sure, but I think it's undisputed at this point that Erdogan has between 4 and 6 procedures happening on any given day, and he is jumping between them to supervise, etc. 

Now, I certainly don't expect Erdogan or any other doctor to personally handle or oversee an entire 8 hour FUE procedure.  But I'm still uneasy about the daily volume that Erdogan is apparently juggling.  I mean, a hair transplant is still a surgical procedure, and no matter how routine or low risk, I feel like either the surgeon, the anesthesiologist, or another doctor (or, at the very least, a certified registered nurse) should be present for most, if not all, of the procedure. 

I saw a post by Dr. Erdogan responding to some of the concerns in this post, and he notes that each of his technicians are required to place at least 10,000 grafts on a simulator before they actually work on a real patient.  I didn't find this reassuring at all.  I mean, a new trainee could easily knock out 10,000 practice grafts in just a 4 or 5 day period.  I don't think I'm comfortable trusting my hairline to a technician that may only have a week's worth of practice, and may not even have any formal medical or nursing training.

I'm not trying to beat up on Erdogan or unfairly cast doubt on his abilities.  He's obviously a top tier transplant surgeon by any standard.  But I think I'm going to end up going with Rahal and forking over the extra $5,000.  I'm just not comfortable putting myself in the hands of non-medically trained technicians that may not have more than a few weeks or months of experience.

 

 

 

Rahal is a top tier surgeon so if you can afford it you’re unlikely to doubt your decision, but for his FUE he does not perform the extractions, nor the implanatations. It’s the exact same process as Erdogan utilizes. So if you feel a doctor should be present for the entire procedure, your choice doesn’t actually fit the criteria. Lupanzula, Keser, Konior Nadimi, Baubac are some of the few that do. Rahal as a tech focused FUE surgeon emphasizes why it’s a poor criteria however as he still gets top tier results.

Also nowhere did he ever say technicians did 10000 grafts on a simulator and were suddenly operating on paying patients, but rather moving to practicing on willing test subjects with 50 grafts which was gradually increased over time.  Assuming they’ve only a weeks worth of practice when the 4 prior teams consisted of people all who had been there for Years ( including mine who were there 2 consecutive years) seems a gigantic stretch. And you could always ask them yourself anyway.

 

 

[Sean]

6 patients a day is too much.  Let alone more than one patient.  

People argue that manual fue causes too much fatigue and it is ok to use motorized or other devices etc for less fatigue.  however, what the fuck does more than one patient a day cause?  That is probably more fatigue then a safer manual punch being used for extractions.  

Ultimately it is up to you to consider if your paying top dollar for a tech surgical extraction or a tech based clinic doing more than 1 patient a day.  

What really justifies the per graft price then? A work of a surgeon or a tech led team.   

That screen showing surgeries is bothersome, surgeries are intricate up close and need to be seen under a loupe, what good does a large screen with multiple surgeries prove?  What’s the benefit?  

This is very informative and If these surgical protocols were followed in the united states, the medical boards would not allow them. (Including tech based surgical extractions as it is considered SURGERY)

Payam, hoping a positive outcome is achieved soon and you are able to live life without these worries.  Really hope your situation is rectified soon.  

[CatsMeow83]

2 hours ago, JeanLDD said:

Rahal is a top tier surgeon so if you can afford it you’re unlikely to doubt your decision, but for his FUE he does not perform the extractions, nor the implanatations. It’s the exact same process as Erdogan utilizes. So if you feel a doctor should be present for the entire procedure, your choice doesn’t actually fit the criteria.

As I said in my comment:  "I certainly don't expect Erdogan or any other doctor to personally handle or oversee an entire 8 hour FUE procedure."  Neither Rahal nor Erdogan handles the entire FUE procedure, that's a given.  The issue is how qualified are the folks doing the work while the doctor is elsewhere. 

Rahal is a Canadian doctor, so there will always be a doctor, PA, or registered nurse in the room during the procedure (this is the bare minimum that his medical malpractice insurer requires).  In other words, there is always a medical professional in the room while the procedure is being performed. 

Erdogan isn't subject to these same regulations and requirements in Turkey, so there may be times during the procedure where there is no doctor, registered nurse, or other medically trained professional present.  This is what I find problematic, but again, maybe it's because I'm an American, and I'm used to there being a higher standard of physician care and supervision.

The other key difference is that if Rahal's technicians screw up, I have plenty of remedies at my disposal, including the peace of mind that the clinic has medical malpractice coverage.  If Erdogan's technicians screw up, all you can hope for is that Erdogan makes things right.  You don't have any other meaningful redress, other than coming to this forum and bitching up a storm.

 

2 hours ago, JeanLDD said:

Also nowhere did he ever say technicians did 10000 grafts on a simulator and were suddenly operating on paying patients

Dr. Erdogan's exact words were: "Each team member is trained using the K-Head (a life-like training model) placing and extracting a minimum of 10,000 grafts before placing or extracting any graft on a live patient."  This means that the technician working on your procedure may have a week of experience (10,000 practice grafts), or he/she may have ten years of experience with hundreds of patients under their belt.  Some technicians obviously have more experience than others.  Which ones am I going to get on surgery day?  Am I getting the most experienced technicians?  The least experienced?  Who knows.  You hope for the best.

Bottom line: you don't know whether the technician placing your grafts at any given moment has a week of experience, or a year of experience.  This fact is indisputable.

Edited January 1, 2019 by CatsMeow83

[CatsMeow83]

58 minutes ago, Sean said:

6 patients a day is too much.  Let alone more than one patient.  

People argue that manual fue causes too much fatigue and it is ok to use motorized or other devices etc for less fatigue.  however, what the fuck does more than one patient a day cause?  That is probably more fatigue then a safer manual punch being used for extractions.  

Ultimately it is up to you to consider if your paying top dollar for a tech surgical extraction or a tech based clinic doing more than 1 patient a day.  

What really justifies the per graft price then? A work of a surgeon or a tech led team.   

That screen showing surgeries is bothersome, surgeries are intricate up close and need to be seen under a loupe, what good does a large screen with multiple surgeries prove?  What’s the benefit?  

This is very informative and If these surgical protocols were followed in the united states, the medical boards would not allow them. (Including tech based surgical extractions as it is considered SURGERY)

Payam, hoping a positive outcome is achieved soon and you are able to live life without these worries.  Really hope your situation is rectified soon.  

I couldn't agree with you more.  I am new to this forum, but I find it more than a little crazy that some people (including some of the mods, apparently) seem to be totally fine with this 6 patient surgical medley that Erdogan is doing.  I mean, how many surgeries can one person capably supervise at one time?

[Kraistoff]

@CatsMeow83 there are also lead techs / more senior techs entering and exiting the rooms. It isn’t just a number of week long trained techs operating on unsuspecting tourists whilst Erdogan sits in his office watching on screens. 

 

All of you guys have me worried for my results. I did notice how young my techs looked when I entered the room. I remember waking up due to pain , and being introduced to Dilek (as an associate of the business) and she was working on the frontal section of my hairline . This frontal section of my hairline still hasn’t shed , so you can imagine the worry and pain such threads are causing me . My temple peaks didn’t shed either and look natural today. 

 

[HT0416]

The problem with Asmed techs, they have no clue what a natural hairline is. when they implant the grafts they just follow Erdogan hairline drawn shape, giving no natural look, you end up with the drawn hairline shape standing out, a bit like going to the barber for a shape up but permanent, only way to explain.

i am living with this at the moment, i have been offered a repair but seen no natural results coming out of Asmed. i honestly don't know whats gone on there, when i started doing research in 2015 i was impressed with the hairlines, ended up getting hair transplant early 2016. since then i haven't seen one decent hair transplant just average at most.

Im stuck with a hairline that looks unnatural with lots of multi 2s and 3s in front 2 rows of my hairline, the shape is rounded straight with average density just looks ridiculous in person.

With everything im finding out it seems like Asmed is some sort of learning college which is a couple years behind surgeons from the USA. No leader in the field in my eyes.

I am going by. 1. They started using microscopes 2018, 2. Hairlines have no irregularity to them, 3. Patients are still getting multi grafts in hairline in 2019, 3. Techs defiantly don't have 5 years experience 

 

[JayLDD]

3 hours ago, CatsMeow83 said:

As I said in my comment:  "I certainly don't expect Erdogan or any other doctor to personally handle or oversee an entire 8 hour FUE procedure."  Neither Rahal nor Erdogan handles the entire FUE procedure, that's a given.  The issue is how qualified are the folks doing the work while the doctor is elsewhere. 

Rahal is a Canadian doctor, so there will always be a doctor, PA, or registered nurse in the room during the procedure (this is the bare minimum that his medical malpractice insurer requires).  In other words, there is always a medical professional in the room while the procedure is being performed. 

Erdogan isn't subject to these same regulations and requirements in Turkey, so there may be times during the procedure where there is no doctor, registered nurse, or other medically trained professional present.  This is what I find problematic, but again, maybe it's because I'm an American, and I'm used to there being a higher standard of physician care and supervision.

The other key difference is that if Rahal's technicians screw up, I have plenty of remedies at my disposal, including the peace of mind that the clinic has medical malpractice coverage.  If Erdogan's technicians screw up, all you can hope for is that Erdogan makes things right.  You don't have any other meaningful redress, other than coming to this forum and bitching up a storm.

 

Dr. Erdogan's exact words were: "Each team member is trained using the K-Head (a life-like training model) placing and extracting a minimum of 10,000 grafts before placing or extracting any graft on a live patient."  This means that the technician working on your procedure may have a week of experience (10,000 practice grafts), or he/she may have ten years of experience with hundreds of patients under their belt.  Some technicians obviously have more experience than others.  Which ones am I going to get on surgery day?  Am I getting the most experienced technicians?  The least experienced?  Who knows.  You hope for the best.

Bottom line: you don't know whether the technician placing your grafts at any given moment has a week of experience, or a year of experience.  This fact is indisputable.

 

"This means that the technician working on your procedure may have a week of experience (10,000 practice grafts), or he/she may have ten years of experience with hundreds of patients under their belt.  Some technicians obviously have more experience than others.  Which ones am I going to get on surgery day?  Am I getting the most experienced technicians?  The least experienced?  Who knows.  You hope for the best."

Dr. Erdogan's exact words were: "Each team member is trained using the K-Head (a life-like training model) placing and extracting a minimum of 10,000 grafts before placing or extracting any graft on a live patient." 

You ignored the second part of the quote after this and left it out for whatever reason though. It doesn't imply a paying live patient, it specifically says they go onto placing 50 grafts and then increasing this number. It is also a fact that their techs all had over a year of experience at least prior to the two new rooms which they've said, so to imply for no particular reason it might be "weeks" is silly. Why would they risk reputation of putting techs on the job after "weeks" after spending literally millions on a new clinic and prior to that having techs with multiple years experience? Its a dumb thing to think, no one makes ludicrous assumptions like this about other European clinics like Lorenzo's for example which utilises a similar approach, its purely because its a Turkish clinic and you've had a tiny number of patients that scream very loudly that anyone is saying things this ridiculous.

I think you'll get a very good result with Rahal and personally he's one of the few doctors I'd consider, but your reasons are reactionary and not logical. You hope for the best with any clinic, I could give easily find over 5 terrible Rahal FUE results from the past 3 years. Or that many bad Lupanzula results, and he utilises no technicains for extractions or implantations. Both of those are also indisputable. You don't magically get a good result because a doctors in a first world country or does the entire procedure.

[JayLDD]

1 hour ago, HT0416 said:

The problem with Asmed techs, they have no clue what a natural hairline is. when they implant the grafts they just follow Erdogan hairline drawn shape, giving no natural look, you end up with the drawn hairline shape standing out, a bit like going to the barber for a shape up but permanent, only way to explain.

i am living with this at the moment, i have been offered a repair but seen no natural results coming out of Asmed. i honestly don't know whats gone on there, when i started doing research in 2015 i was impressed with the hairlines, ended up getting hair transplant early 2016. since then i haven't seen one decent hair transplant just average at most.

Im stuck with a hairline that looks unnatural with lots of multi 2s and 3s in front 2 rows of my hairline, the shape is rounded straight with average density just looks ridiculous in person.

With everything im finding out it seems like Asmed is some sort of learning college which is a couple years behind surgeons from the USA. No leader in the field in my eyes.

I am going by. 1. They started using microscopes 2018, 2. Hairlines have no irregularity to them, 3. Patients are still getting multi grafts in hairline in 2019, 3. Techs defiantly don't have 5 years experience 

 

"Patients are still getting multi grafts in hairline in 2019"

lol

[Payam]

On 12/31/2018 at 10:04 PM, FarsanUk said:

I'm an asmed patient too. Yes my co ordinator confirmed to me when I was there it's 6 patients per day however my first day it was 3 second was 6. Now they have a new clinic and more surgery rooms. Infact if you go to their intstagram they have a video story where they show the big screen where Dr Erdogan views all surgeries. The big screen had 9 different surgery rooms and 2 of them were not being used meaning at that point there was 7 surgeries you could see going on.

How this guy still is recommended here is a travesty. There is no other doctor that is this uninvolved in the surgery,  exactly what is he supposed to discern on those screens? No wonder I have so many doubles and triples in the first two rows.. I hope every future Asmed patient reads this thread and realizes exactly what they are paying for.

[CatsMeow83]

On 1/1/2019 at 6:16 AM, JeanLDD said:

Why would they risk reputation of putting techs on the job after "weeks" after spending literally millions on a new clinic and prior to that having techs with multiple years experience? 

Jesus man, I don't freaking know.  I also don't know why he's running 6 surgeries at the same time.  I know nothing about his clinic protocol, other than what he posted on this forum awhile ago.  And based on his own words, it's possible that a technician working on your procedure has only mere weeks of experience.  I don't know what the odds of that are, or whether it actually happens in practice, but I do know that it is absolutely possible based on what Dr. Erdogan posted to this forum, re: the experience and training of his technicians. 

Again - I'm going off his words here - which is all I have to go on.  Everything else is just speculation. I agree that this scenario would be risky on his part, but I'm not getting the sense that best practices are being observed right now at ASMED.  I absolutely understand that doctors need to delegate heavily in these procedures.  I work as a licensed professional as well, and delegation is also a big part of my job, so I get it.  But I also know first hand that you can only capably supervise and oversee so many things and so many people at one time.  No doctor can manage and monitor 6 active patient surgeries, and supervise and oversee 20+ technicians, all at the same time.

[CatsMeow83]

On 1/1/2019 at 6:16 AM, JeanLDD said:

You don't magically get a good result because a doctors in a first world country or does the entire procedure.

I hear you.  I mean hell, it's possible that there are ASMED technicians that have so much experience they would do a better job than Rahal or Erdogan themselves would do.  But in the majority of procedures, I think more doctor involvement = better results.  

Do we know anything about what qualifications there are for ASMED technicians, other than the 10,000 practice graft requirement that Dr. Erdogan noted in his response awhile back?  I would bet you a dollar to a donut that some of the technicians doing these procedures have no formal medical or nursing training, and nothing beyond a 12th grade education.  

EDIT: My last question is really one that we should consider, and see if the mods know the answer.  I think it's an important question given how the procedures are being performed at ASMED, and I don't see how any clinic could possibly be vetted and recommended by this site if we don't know what qualifications and standards are required of the lead technicians that are responsible for doing most of the heavy lifting in these procedures.

Edited January 4, 2019 by CatsMeow83