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3600 Grafts - Dr Koray Erdogan 13th March 2018

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Yeah you always show that one area so assuming that’s the worse area so if you’re brushing the worst area apart it’s gonna look bad. 

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It doesn't matter that he shows the bad part in the video. If a half side of his head looks like this it is obviously a bad result. @Payam did you share your pics with asmed? It would be interesting to hear Dr. Korays opinion to this..

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Im a total novice to hair transplant but isnt like 3600 grafts considered to be 1/2 or 1/3 of the total donor. One would expect a better result for such a small area? As i said im a novice and can be wrong. 

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20 minutes ago, mosd said:

Im a total novice to hair transplant but isnt like 3600 grafts considered to be 1/2 or 1/3 of the total donor. One would expect a better result for such a small area? As i said im a novice and can be wrong. 

the rest of the result remains to be unseen, but yes you are relatively correct. What Payam is showing is very poor in terms of growth and result.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Sean said:

Payam, thanks for showing the video.  It legit shows concerns and i know you will be posting more updates in the days to come.  

Man oh man, you definitely can try to reach out to IAHRS or ISHRS but not sure how you will be taken.  Quite honestly, you should file with them but send that same exact copy of correspondence to the FTC titled under Marketing/Business Practices and Marketing Fraud.  Id urge anyone who has an issue with any clinic to do the same.  Federal prosecuters/investigators know how the game is played and how silencing occurs and or marketing misrepresentation or bias occurs due to business relationships as well.  The more information folks submit, the better it is for regulation of the industry.  You can file in Turkey to local boards but if doctors are part of US business entities, there is more power here via FTC.

lets see how it looks in photos a couple days from now.  Payam, i think majority is wishing you the best here.  This whole ordeal is no doubt not easy to go through. I think repair patients waiting to find a way to be repaired can feel the extreme pain.  It is very tough to go through all these things man.  Keep your head up.

I usually like your posts which are consistently helpful but come on, this is silly. Marketing fraud for what exactly? The fact that Payam can't read and misses the email correspondence and website material that nowhere says Koray does extractions (common in europe anyway), and specifically mentions a surgical team engaging in this? You can't claim marketing fraud for a below-par result or in Payam's case being wilfully illiterate. Also you mention "how silencing occurs", what silencing exactly? How is this not tilting at windmills?

Not to mention the fact that Payam deliberately parts and combs his hair in the video in the most retarded way possible to forcefully make the result look worse. 

Melvin did a great job emphasising this type of thing here and anyone else who has had a transplant will understand.

No excuse for not understanding this from people who should know better. 

Also to the people talking refunds, Payam's potentially pushed hundreds of people away off the back of a hell of a lot of dishonest, misleading or blatantly false information. The guy still can't post regular photos that aren't extreme closeups or in harsh bathroom lighting, parted ridiculously to avoid layering etc. No business in the world should refund a client/patient/customer who does this because it encourages people to make things up or in this case potentially assume that because they don't have an eighteen year olds density that they got screwed. If he acted like a decent and reasonable adult its a different story but no business should support or give credit someone who goes out of their way to turn people away off misleading info. He's literally posting on other forums saying not to go to the clinic because they will "be butchered". Sorry, anyone who thinks he should get a refund after that there's something wrong with your head.

 

Also maybe someone can explain to me why these results are passed over and no one cares whether or not they're below par despite Cooley having less than a tenth the number of patient posted results, but Payam's result is the end of the world. Genuinely want to know. I'm sick of having to repeat it, but this is not a dig at Cooley, but a question on why poor results are perfectly fine with some doctors but others people immediately jump to the "muh techs" and accuse the doctor of not caring or doing it for the money etc. Not hard to be reasonable or be consistent. Both with yields visibly lower than Payam's, and no one cares despite these two being half of the patient posted Cooley results on this site from the around the last yearish.:

 

 

 

 

Edited by JayLDD

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I'm glad you posted that thread because I really don't know what the point of Melvins picture was, an out of focus super closeup from a nw5 with the flash enabled will obviously look bad, even on someone with hair. Compared here to my month 6 picture i am guessing he was trying to emulate, how are they in any way similar.. i mean you can try to deny and deflect all you want but the video doesn't lie, and my pictures have all been high res at a distance to tell the unfiltered truth. 

C3FE9E1F-DFE6-46F5-8825-24B2C617A85B.thumb.jpeg.ce1bca4e6326196d3f1fca62290c19da.jpeg

IMG_20180922_123323.jpg

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Posted (edited)

HI Payam thank for the update .. In my opinion the left side definitely seems to be lacking density and will need extra grafts to reach the desired result ,why that happened I have no idea ..in saying that the way you show the result isn't the best tbh ...you should use a comb with a the end where the teeth are close together and not that brush you are using  which only aids in spreading the hair apart and not together like a comb does ...I have to be honest and although you obviously didn't have a a total success the rest of your hair looks pretty thick ..maybe if you could do the same with the right side so we can get a better idea of what the density in the hair-line there is compared to the left will give a better overall picture . 

I think you have shown concern about having a second surgery because you are worried that the new grafts won't take because of damage to the scalp ..I see nothing in your scalp that suggests there would be a problem .. But obviously get a Doc's opinion .

Edited by Mick50

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It would be interesting to see current status in the best possible lighting and the best layered style cut that you can sport. From all angles, preferably video.

Not saying that what you are showing is a good result in any way. But if you could provide my request it would be much appreciated by many and help us get a clearer picture of the situation.

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Why you keep parting the hair like that? And always that side?

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Posted (edited)

@JayLDD can you honestly say that you would be happy with this result in his temple area if you were in Payams shoe? genuinely curious. and that question goes for everyone on this forum that is reading this thread?

just lol how people say you rarely get hair restoration done in one pass. I’m not going to name or post the hundreds of results that show it’s possible (luke from cinik type examples).

im not saying there are never any failed hair transplants, Im simply in the corner of “Payam has a right to be upset about how his result turned out”

Edited by hairlossPA

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, hairlossPA said:

@JayLDD can you honestly say that you would be happy with this result in his temple area if you were in Payams shoe? genuinely curious. and that question goes for everyone on this forum that is reading this thread?

just lol how people say you rarely get hair restoration done in one pass. I’m not going to name or post the hundreds of results that show it’s possible (luke from cinik type examples).

im not saying there are never any failed hair transplants, Im simply in the corner of “Payam has a right to be upset about how his result turned out”

I think we all believe Payam has a right to be upset. We just would like a more thorough overview of his current situation so we can all assess the full final result. All we are being shown at the moment is the one temple area parted in a harsh light. Nobody is saying that they would be happy with that result or density but his transplant was for the entire front of his head and the other temple area. Before we can assess the outcome surely we need to be presented with the full result. I think that's fair enough.

Edited by DEB1982

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20 hours ago, Sean said:

Payam, thanks for showing the video.  It legit shows concerns and i know you will be posting more updates in the days to come.  

Man oh man, you definitely can try to reach out to IAHRS or ISHRS but not sure how you will be taken.  Quite honestly, you should file with them but send that same exact copy of correspondence to the FTC titled under Marketing/Business Practices and Marketing Fraud.  Id urge anyone who has an issue with any clinic to do the same.  Federal prosecuters/investigators know how the game is played and how silencing occurs and or marketing misrepresentation or bias occurs due to business relationships as well.  The more information folks submit, the better it is for regulation of the industry.  You can file in Turkey to local boards but if doctors are part of US business entities, there is more power here via FTC.

lets see how it looks in photos a couple days from now.  Payam, i think majority is wishing you the best here.  This whole ordeal is no doubt not easy to go through. I think repair patients waiting to find a way to be repaired can feel the extreme pain.  It is very tough to go through all these things man.  Keep your head up.

Fraud? That assertion is way over the top and, quite frankly, absurd. OK he didn't grow well but that can happen for a multitude of reasons. None of us know every single variable related to this case. When you go for an HT you sign a contract acknowledging and accepting the fact it may not be a success. Erdogan has great results posted by patients week in week out. The notion that federal prosecutors would be interested is laughable. Erdogan is not a cowboy or a crook, you've got your eye on the wrong ball. 

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I can understand your concerns, but anything can happen.  I was responding to the person that mentioned ishrs complaint.  It all depends on documentation, email exchanges, any other exchange outside the forums, and numerous factors.  If you call up the FTC or have a meeting with them, they can explain how things work.  There is more to these things in general.  I actually spoke with folks on that side.

 

so far did you get what you paid for?

payment was made was service rendered in full?

do you have statements from other known docs and consultations as to what is  needed to rectify current issue at hand?

did you see other results to make your expectations think this is how the work will be? Where did you see that work?  Can you link to that work?

You have copies of all email?  Can you provide details? From initial contact, to consultation, to today?

Do you have copy of consents?  Can you provide them?

Are there related forum posts / responses that can be attached? 

Did you get adequate response lately from the clinic? 

Did you get copies if your medical records?

What organizations is the doctor part of? Did you file complaint or raise issue with any organization?  If so, what was the complaint and what their response?  

How many other folks have shared their experience similar to yours? Can you link their accounts?

You can keep going—

At the end of the day, hope this issue is resolved.

Payam, when you get a chance, definitely try to post pics.

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7 hours ago, Payam said:

I'm glad you posted that thread because I really don't know what the point of Melvins picture was, an out of focus super closeup from a nw5 with the flash enabled will obviously look bad, even on someone with hair. Compared here to my month 6 picture i am guessing he was trying to emulate, how are they in any way similar.. i mean you can try to deny and deflect all you want but the video doesn't lie, and my pictures have all been high res at a distance to tell the unfiltered truth. 

C3FE9E1F-DFE6-46F5-8825-24B2C617A85B.thumb.jpeg.ce1bca4e6326196d3f1fca62290c19da.jpeg

IMG_20180922_123323.jpg

The point of that thread was to show how someone can make a good hair transplant look worse. Now I'm not saying you shouldn't be dissatisfied. It's your hair and how you feel cannot be dictated by anyone. However, you have consistently posted your hairline spread apart and have only posted one-side. I don't feel this is a fair reflection of the entire result. 

Rarely does anyone walk around with their hair spread apart and in public you will see the entire scalp not just one side. I don't think we're being unfair in asking that you show us pictures or videos of the entire result. It would be understandable if you only had that one section transplanted, but you had the entire hairline rebuilt. Moreover, you had some grafts placed in the mid-scalp and crown.

In my opinion, everyone who posts their progress photos should be taking photos of how they present themselves to the world. It's not about trying to make your result look better or worse. It's simply about giving the community a good understanding of how you look in public, which is where you're seen by others.


I do not provide medical advice, recommendations, all responses are my opinion.

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19 hours ago, hairlossPA said:

@JayLDD can you honestly say that you would be happy with this result in his temple area if you were in Payams shoe? genuinely curious. and that question goes for everyone on this forum that is reading this thread?

just lol how people say you rarely get hair restoration done in one pass. I’m not going to name or post the hundreds of results that show it’s possible (luke from cinik type examples).

im not saying there are never any failed hair transplants, Im simply in the corner of “Payam has a right to be upset about how his result turned out”

No definitely not, but I think it’s downright *moronic* to expect going into a transplant that you’re guaranteed a good result with any clinic, and that if you don’t get one you’re going to shit on the clinic.

I show the poor Cooley results above because anyone who has done their research would understand that virtually any clinic no matter how highly regarded regularly gets poor results if you judge statistically (even roughly) across all surgeons. If 5-15% of results from virtually every surgeon are at a similar standard to Payams (they are and everyone should do proper research and stop focusing on top tier results) the hysteria here appears evidently insane. 

It’s also clearly not a disaster, the density is poor but he’s in a better position than preop and a 1500 graft touchup would likely get him in a very strong position.

Payam has the right to complain his results are poor, but to say like he did on the other forum to everyone considering a procedure with Erdogan they “will be butchered” is ridiculous and reflects more poorly on him than the clinic. A normal person with basic understanding of success rates would have accepted and moved on or consulted rationally about a touchup/refund rather than shitting on them, being blatantly dishonest, often outright lying and then expecting sympathy.

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On 3/6/2019 at 10:28 AM, nb98 said:

Yeah you always show that one area so assuming that’s the worse area so if you’re brushing the worst area apart it’s gonna look bad. 

I don’t get this kind of thinking. Sorry not trying to be combative, but people keep saying it and it really baffles me. Would you prefer patients hide the transplanted areas or present them in the most flattering, dimly lit, combed over conditions or do you actually want to see the transplant? It’s just odd that a lot of people say this. You either want to see clear, high quality, well lit photos of the transplant or you don’t. 

I for one would rather see what I’m in for, rather than a touched up version...

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No, I want to see the whole area and styled. 

Not just the obvious bad part brushed apart. 

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8 hours ago, kw877 said:

I don’t get this kind of thinking. Sorry not trying to be combative, but people keep saying it and it really baffles me. Would you prefer patients hide the transplanted areas or present them in the most flattering, dimly lit, combed over conditions or do you actually want to see the transplant? It’s just odd that a lot of people say this. You either want to see clear, high quality, well lit photos of the transplant or you don’t. 

I for one would rather see what I’m in for, rather than a touched up version...

a lot of people on this forum are unconscious biased one way or another. i agree with you 100%

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The whole point of going through such a painstaking procedure is for a distinct cosmetic change that looks natural and satisfies the goal of the look of having hair.  The goal is not to have a scalp that looks off or see through based on the things discussed with the doctor, their marketing materials, their agents and affiliates.  If after going through such a procedure you have eyes wonder to your scalp and have negative comments or comments that suggest you are thinning or balding, then the procedure has failed.  If the reality is a person cannot attain a reasonable natural result, and doctors know this, then a doctor should turn that patient down instead of taking dollars and proceeding with it.  The most painful part is for a person to try to chase repairs due to the damages done.  Some docs will make you feel like they may do you favor but the amount of pain and suffering is surely worth an enormous amount of money.  

It is reasonable for any person that has attention to detail and demands perfection and quality after such an expensive and time consuming  surgery that utilizes priceless grafts to question a result, whether, issue is in a part or crown or a temple or eyebrow or the whole scalp. Theres been some talk about few folks going to cheaper unrecommended surgeons and being told you get what you pay for.  Well if something goes wrong with a known surgeon,  how is you get what you pay for, applied?  

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, kw877 said:

I don’t get this kind of thinking. Sorry not trying to be combative, but people keep saying it and it really baffles me. Would you prefer patients hide the transplanted areas or present them in the most flattering, dimly lit, combed over conditions or do you actually want to see the transplant? It’s just odd that a lot of people say this. You either want to see clear, high quality, well lit photos of the transplant or you don’t. 

I for one would rather see what I’m in for, rather than a touched up version...

As much as someone showing their result  in poor  lighting or possibly using concealer ..someone showing their result with harsh over head lighting with the hair spread apart is equally misleading and actually both scenarios are not helping new guys on here to decide to have a hair transplant or not 

All we are asking is someone like Payam to please take picture in natural    lighting  from a reasonable distance with his combed and styled in the way he wears it each day it quite simply will give us a better idea of his result.. and it is how up to recently guys have always showed their results on this site .

Also of course he is entitled to show his left side in the way he has done ..but again it would give us a better idea of the result if he does the same with the right side so we can compare  ..surely this would help his argument of poor density in the left side if he showed the whole hairline combed back ..and we would clearly see where the poor density is .

Again quite simply we just want to see how the hair looks in good natural lighting ..plenty of guys on here in the past have shown their hair combed in a natural  way with pics exposing their hairline or how they want to style it     and if it is     a sub -par result it is obvious and they have been advised accordingly.. but how can we do that when someone just shows close-ups of the area of concern.. we  need to see the whole hair-line ..Jesus !  is that really asking too much ?

 

Edited by Mick50

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Posted (edited)
On 3/8/2019 at 8:35 AM, JayLDD said:

No definitely not, but I think it’s downright *moronic* to expect going into a transplant that you’re guaranteed a good result with any clinic, and that if you don’t get one you’re going to shit on the clinic.

I show the poor Cooley results above because anyone who has done their research would understand that virtually any clinic no matter how highly regarded regularly gets poor results if you judge statistically (even roughly) across all surgeons. If 5-15% of results from virtually every surgeon are at a similar standard to Payams (they are and everyone should do proper research and stop focusing on top tier results) the hysteria here appears evidently insane. 

It’s also clearly not a disaster, the density is poor but he’s in a better position than preop and a 1500 graft touchup would likely get him in a very strong position.

Payam has the right to complain his results are poor, but to say like he did on the other forum to everyone considering a procedure with Erdogan they “will be butchered” is ridiculous and reflects more poorly on him than the clinic. A normal person with basic understanding of success rates would have accepted and moved on or consulted rationally about a touchup/refund rather than shitting on them, being blatantly dishonest, often outright lying and then expecting sympathy.

First of all, I would like to highlight that definitions of "butchery" change over time. As the hair transplant industry has evolved, so have expectations. And while no clinic can guarantee excellent growth for each procedure, I do believe that a so-called "recommended clinic" should deliver results that are natural and undetectable. Furthermore, anything less than this standard is butchery per modern standards. What this means is that hair angles should mimic nature and only singles should be placed in the hairline. In other words, the hair transplant should look entirely natural regardless of whether there is 30% growth or 95% growth. While I will refrain from calling out any clinics specifically, there are some clinics that just disregard the fundamental principles of a natural hair transplant and this should not be normalized. Naturalness is in my opinion just as important as growth and we should not expect hairlines that are riddled with multis or angles that are off. 

Second of all, I do not believe that Payam is out of line when voicing his opinion on here. The forums are a great tool for clinics to market their skillset and build up their reputation. But the forums also hold clinics accountable when results are not up to par. Under no circumstances should anyone silence a patient who may have a result that one should never expect from any clinic. 

Thirdly, why are you bringing other clinics into this conversation? It is not a secret that all clinics have cases of poor growth. I believe that we are having a conversation about one specific clinic who quite a few people have voiced concerns of unnaturalness about in recent times. Poor growth surely becomes a problem when it occurs frequently but good growth means very little when a hairline looks unnatural. 

Edited by delancey

I am not a medical professional and my words should not be taken as medical advice. All opinions and views shared are my own.

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Posted (edited)

Payam, 

So sorry that this is causing you some anxiety.  

I briefly read that one of your concerns is that your hair transplant looks unnatural and it makes you feel self-conscious. Have you had an opportunity to visit another reputable clinic who could offer you some advice on receiving a repair? Getting feedback from a top-tier clinic on the quality of the work may also help you in receiving at least a partial refund that could go towards getting this fixed so that you can move on with your life. The good news is that your hair loss is not widespread so the focus should really be on finding a clinic that you trust and one that produces results that mimic nature. There are many options available so try to stay calm and focus on the solution. 

 

Edited by delancey
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I am not a medical professional and my words should not be taken as medical advice. All opinions and views shared are my own.

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Payum 

I feel for you however just remember this is not a complete disaster. The donor is probably well intact and angles seem fine. It's a question of adding density yes it's still unacceptable density but trust me when I tell you if you go to the real top guns who really care for the patient and attention to detail is second to none and spend the whole time with 1 patient , then although still nothing is guaranteed - at least you give yourself the best possible chance of a good result. This next step is vital, you have a lifeline  and one more chance to put it right do not let price even be a consideration. However, before you even consider another surgeon make sure you get at least a partial refund you can go through  here or I.a.hrs (better) but what ever you do not go back to them no matter what they say. Once you lose confidence in a clinic no matter how good they are or have been it really is dumb to even go back there. Look at planet steven he ranted so much about how disappointed his experience and result was and still went back there! And he won't be happy when his second result comes through I assure you although he is very OCD and really isn't a good candidate based on his mental status.

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1 hour ago, FarsanUk said:

Look at planet steven he ranted so much about how disappointed his experience and result was and still went back there! And he won't be happy when his second result comes through I assure you although he is very OCD and really isn't a good candidate based on his mental status.

Kind of agree with that. I've watched his videos on Youtube and it is refreshing to see he is upfront in his thoughts on his procedure. However I do see signs he hasn't researched HT's enough. Think in his last video, he mentioned he asked the clinic what he could do to ensure his grafts grow and was a little surprised they couldn't give him a definite answer. To be honest, outside following post-op instructions, being careful with the recipient area and staying on medication, not sure there's much more someone can do and it pretty much comes down to the quality of the work and persons own physiology.

Similarly in one of his earlier videos, he mentioned he wasn't aware he wouldn't be the only patient on the day or that Dr Erdogan would only be doing the incisions. Yes clinics should be advising patients about this for sure but for me prospective patients owe it to themselves to be clued up on these things and do plenty of due diligence through questions and research before they head into the chair and not just look go by before/after pictures on a clinics website to influence their decision. 

After his 2nd procedure, he has used 4600 or so grafts on the hairline and temple point area.......genuinely think that is a staggering amount in a fairly small area for someone who you wouldn't say is clearly balding from his starting position, especially when you you see NW4-5 patients go in and have 5000 grafts and come out the other end with major improvements in the frontal area and crown.

In my mind, this is where HT's start getting murky and there has to be some push back from clinics. I've spoken with a recommended surgeon and he mentioned he see's it more and more where guys are coming in and wanting aggressive 'designer' hairlines and temple points to pull off a certain hairstyle before they've had any major loss behind the hairline and crown and it is a problem. 

I hope Planetstephen gets the result he wants after his second round but like you, there is a concern he is after something very specific that maybe fall's out the realms of what I'd call a real hairloss issue and he may still not be happy but let's hope that isn't the case.

In Payam's case, I can totally understand his disatisfaction with his result. It's not a complete disaster in my opinion but even taking into account the idea of 'an illusion of density', I don't think he is wrong to be expecting more in terms of density. Saying that, as others have suggested, it would be good to see pictures with an overall view where the hair is styled and from different angles.

Obviously he is the one who has to live with a result he is not happy with on a day to day basis so if it is making him self conscious, then can understand how in his eyes it is a disaster. End of the day, we are all emotionally/mentally wired differently, so understand where he is coming from.

I do believe his concerns with his result are fixable however and in the hands of a good surgeon he is comfortable with, there's every chance he will come out the other end happy and hope he does. 

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