28 Yr Frontal Transplant (~2100 Graft) 8 Months

[Hassler]

I agree that this is down to poor work, the front 1-2cm are not remotely dense packed, you can practically count every single graft placed (and the count doesn't come anywhere near 2100).

 

A dense packed hairline would just be a blur of redness immediately post-op, not individual dots with larger areas of clear white skin around them as you have. You may also be a slow grower, but the gaps in the frontal area are never going to fill in, there just weren't the grafts placed.

 

I think your wise not to go back to the same doctor, there is no excuse for this sort of work, I think you should also name him on here, as as I can't understand why you would want to protect the reputation of a clinic who have let you down like this - I would be standing outside their clinic with a billboard around my neck.

[jimbrann]

A dense packed hairline would just be a blur of redness immediately post-op

 

Can you post pics of what this looks like for reference?

[Triple7]

I agree you should get a full refund. Having to deal with a poor result is way worse than just being a normal bald guy. Take it from me because I’ve been there!

[Hassler]

Can you post pics of what this looks like for reference?

 

Here a couple of references of immediately post-op (second one is my own):

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/171166-3594-strip-dr-bisanga.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/188104-1400-fue-dr-edward-ball-uk.html

[Speran28]

Hi everyone,

 

Appreciate the feedback and comments. Honestly I am not sure of the best way to ask for a full refund? I have no idea if blackmailing by saying I'll post your name everywhere if you don't give me a full refund is the best idea to go about doing this.

 

At this time I'm researching other surgeons to fix the scar and the transplant area. Any recommendations on doctors? Right now I'm leaning toward Cooley or Shapiro (likely Cooley though because of prp specialization)

[Gasthoerer]

There is one good thing in this.

 

If much less than the promised were planted, you wasted less of your precious donor at a bad clinic. Furthermore, if you just count the # of grafts you can user this as a measure for the refund (50 % of grafts approx. 50 % of refund).

 

Good luck!

[Hassler]

I agree with the previous post. If I were you then I would take the 50% refund on offer and run for the hills. You've prob got about 40-50% of the HT you needed (and paid for), so a 50% refund is approaching fairness.

 

You could expend an awful lot of mental energy pursuing the guy for a full refund, and the fact that he has offered money back tells you that he is at least somewhat moral. My opinion from looking at the post-op pics is that you had inadequate density grafted in the frontal area, PLUS a poor growth rate on top...a double whammy. If they had all grown, the result would still not have been great imo (but better than it is). I've seen nothing but excellent results from Shapiro and Cooley, so I suspect your experience would be like night and day with them.

 

Bear in mind, that as disappointing as it is, the result does still hold some intrinsic value. Any existing hair (whether native or previously transplanted) is always a bonus when going for another procedure, it assists in the goal of achieving density, so in the hands of a really good HT doc, they could probably achieve a superior result now than if you had gone to them with your relatively blank canvas in the first instance (I believe).

 

Finally, and to end on a high note.....you have great donor hair. Your hair looks coarse, it has a wave/curl, and the colour is a relatively low contrast with your skin. In the right hands, you should be able to get a cracking result if you don't let this bad experience put you off going for another procedure.

[adonix]

There is one good thing in this.

 

If much less than the promised were planted, you wasted less of your precious donor at a bad clinic. Furthermore, if you just count the # of grafts you can user this as a measure for the refund (50 % of grafts approx. 50 % of refund).

 

Good luck!

 

The way it looks he had around 35-40% growth, probably less than 20% in the hairline.

 

I would completely disagree with that measure -- % of growth = % of refund, especially when growth is less than 50%.

 

Lost grafts are priceless, and any reputable clinic that cares about its patients wellbeing should go above and beyond in making things right - including full refunds in cases like this one.

 

That entire story of 'wait another 3-4 months' is just buying time - hoping you would give up. No new hair will grow in the hairline after 10 months.

 

On another note - if I was the OP, and wanted to go with FUT again, I would go only with dr. Wong or dr. Konior.

[Gasthoerer]

The way it looks he had around 35-40% growth, probably less than 20% in the hairline.

 

I would completely disagree with that measure -- % of growth = % of refund, especially when growth is less than 50%.

 

 

Please read my post if you quote it: I never spoke about growth, I was refering to planted grafts.

 

Also I disagree that he had only 20 % growth. The primary issue is, that far to few grafts were planted. That is actually good news, because:

 

a) Easy to proof from the pictures

b) Not more grafts wasted

c) You might have a good chance when sueing (maybe the clinic mentioned the graft # somewhere in the papers)

 

Poor growth is much worse (and I think there is a secondary issue here too, but not 20 %):

a) Wasted grafts which you never get back

b) Hard to proof why it happend and who is responsible (even the best clinics have results with poor growth).

c) In case you sue, due to b) y?u have little chance

[Hassler]

I think it's a double whammy of poor density by the doc and then also poor growth. From the post-op pics, the density looks around 60% of what I would expect to see and the growth was probably also about 60% of what was planted, you add them together and you've got around 35-40% of a satisfactory end result.

 

The doc can really only be held 100% responsible for the poor graft density, as the poor growth could be down to numerous factors (including bad luck). That said, if the doc is taken to task with his grafting density, I'm sure his standard reply will be "one has to be very careful with density, grafts placed too closely together won't grow and follicles can be transected by trying to place them too closely together". All of which we know to be 100% true, however, that's the real skill in the top HT surgeons isn't it, it's the skill and judgement to push things to the limits of what is possible in terms of density to achieve the most natural/dense hairlines while avoiding disaster. The best analogy I can think of is the racing car driver who can push the car to top speeds while staying just below the line which would otherwise see the car come flying off the track. I'm afraid the doc in this case looks like he trundled round the track without taking it out of 1st gear (he knows his limitations).

 

I say he should take the 50% refund and draw a line under this saga, the situation is very recoverable, it doesn't seem worth the mental anguish of a protracted fight (in which he could end up with nothing).

[Speran28]

Agreed Hassler and really appreciate the comments.

 

I think this could be a long drawn out issue and frankly isn't worth my time to get back $3500 or so. It's not the end of the world financially for me, it was more so the annoying waste of time. I would have liked to have had my hair fixed by now, not be looking at another transplant.

 

The main issues are that I was nudged into FUT by this clinic (you want a lot of hair and this is the only way to get it was the explanation), along with the poor growth I received and frustrating scar I now have.

 

I'm going to take my 50% refund, which I still am unsure if I will get (he was really pushing for a second surgery and did not seem happy about my refund request). Then I am going to go to Cooley or Shapiro and hope it can all be fixed.

 

To be perfectly honest, this experience has been so horrible that I wish I'd shaved my head many times and almost feel silly for going this route. I do hope it works out okay.

 

Another question, has anyone tried Cooley's help hair shakes? Am confused why he somewhat pushes them as I do not see much documentation stating they work. Further, does anyone use oral minoxidil? Cooley prescribed this to me (I get sides from fin and take a very low does), but am concerned about impacts on the heart. I have naturally low blood pressure and am not really comfortable lowering it even further with medication.

[hitherehair]

I've seen some excellent repairs by feller and bloxham on youtube

[Legend007]

Hey speran .. yeah I think u right .. just go ahead and take the 50% refund .. it’s not about the money u just wanted more hair .. it’s disapponting u didn’t get it to a satisfactory standard .. who would think that paying a few thousand dollars to make urself feel n look better only to make things worse .. no point stressing out over what has been done .. u still have options ,, go fix urself n choose another doctor that u can trust with ur hair .. I think in the end u gonna be better .. ur hair looks good, it’s manageable .. just gotta tough it out for the next few months .. best of luck to ya ..

[Speran28]

Updated pictures at 15.5 months out that I have sent to the doctor for refund last Friday. Still waiting to hear back. They did call me last week offering the free transplant again. No mention was made about the refund.

 

I am not sure why they keep wanting to redo the transplant. Perhaps it is less costly? Regardless I am not going back and am just happy they're at least willing to do 50%. I did sign a bunch of forms that likely said we are not entitled to refund you and anything can happen etc.

 

Regarding why this happened, he said it could be a number of reasons and he honestly does not know why. He stated he follows the same procedure and uses same techs everytime. They do have good reviews on Yelp and Google so not sure what happened here.

 

I am currently consulting with a few top surgeons to see about fixing this in May sometime.

 

I admit it's incredibly frustrating and I still wish I could go back and simply shave my head, so word to the wise here. I will be starting a new post after my new transplant for people to follow. To be completely candid, I am thankful this is fixable and I have the monetary means to do so, but I admit the recovery from an FUT procedure isn't fun and am not looking forward to doing it again. This will be my last one to fix the scar and then if I ever need more I will do FUE.

[jimbrann]

Updated pictures at 15.5 months out that I have sent to the doctor for refund last Friday. Still waiting to hear back. They did call me last week offering the free transplant again. No mention was made about the refund.

 

I am not sure why they keep wanting to redo the transplant. Perhaps it is less costly? Regardless I am not going back and am just happy they're at least willing to do 50%. I did sign a bunch of forms that likely said we are not entitled to refund you and anything can happen etc.

 

Regarding why this happened, he said it could be a number of reasons and he honestly does not know why. He stated he follows the same procedure and uses same techs everytime. They do have good reviews on Yelp and Google so not sure what happened here.

 

I am currently consulting with a few top surgeons to see about fixing this in May sometime.

 

I admit it's incredibly frustrating and I still wish I could go back and simply shave my head, so word to the wise here. I will be starting a new post after my new transplant for people to follow. To be completely candid, I am thankful this is fixable and I have the monetary means to do so, but I admit the recovery from an FUT procedure isn't fun and am not looking forward to doing it again. This will be my last one to fix the scar and then if I ever need more I will do FUE.

 

Hi, what did your recipient area look like at months 3, 4, 5 and 6? I noticed you only posted pics from months 8 onwards but what about before? Reason I'm is asking is so we can gauge the differences in growth during these months compared to your month 8.

 

Did you notice continued growth up until months 4 or 5 and then no improvements or was your hair at month 8 exactly the same as it was at month 4?

 

Can you post pics of your recipient area prior to month 8?

[harryforreal]

6:38 AM so a bit groggy while writing this. Even so...

 

Your post catches my attention in part because I think we have similar hair qualities - and I think MAYBE our hair quality poses some slightly different challenges from other hair qualities; but maybe I'm wrong. Still, thicker, dark hair seems to have more natural results to me than softer, light brown hair such as yours and mine. For me one big problem has been trying to get a soft hairline - my natural hairline has always been soft and free falling, whereas the transplanted hairs are definitely thicker and more coarse. Maybe this is the same problem for everyone, I'm not sure. But for me the result has been very unsatisfactory.

 

As to your actual result:

 

Very poor result. I agree with other posters that the original implanting was not nearly dense enough. Actually, the placement was absurdly non-dense. Was this done by a surgeon or a green tech assistant??

 

If done by an experienced surgeon, it is someone at the very least who has no aesthetic sense. The implanted hair appears to have grown well to me. It is not a question of graft survival. It is simply an issue of aesthetic design - too much space with thicker, coarser hairs = totally unnatural and thus aesthetically unpleasing look. Either this surgeon is inexperienced with hair transplant results, or simply has no sense for how younger guys want their hair to look. And your result sure as heck is not how younger (and I dare say older also!) guys want their hair to look.

 

I think the lack of density was a significant problem with my HT, as well, though not as extreme as your HT. But I should caution: the thicker hairs at the front of the hairline, even though they are singles, will still leave you feeling that your HT has an unnatural look and feel - literally, whenever you reach up and run your fingers through your hair you will feel the thicker, coarse hair at the front. So when you go for repair, look for a surgeon who:

 

1) dense packs (with a proven, verifiable track record)

2) Can cherry pick softer hairs for the front of the hairline. For this reason I probably favor FUE.

 

Also, consider a higher hairline (i.e., removing some of the lower grafts); it will take a lot more grafts to fill up all that space down to where your transplanted hairline is .

 

As for the refund, if you can get 50%, take it and run. Any decent lawyer would advise this. There is literally no point in spending more time and energy and frustration on top of what you have already experienced to try and squeeze out an extra $1500 - especially as others have pointed out that you did have hair growth, so you have gotten SOMETHING for your money. Unfortunately as you now know, it's not really about the money - it's about the TIME. You will have to spend at least another year trying to repair this. Just get on it, get it done, and then move on with your life. Chasing down some hack doctor with a butcher knife for a mere $1500 isn't worth the time and effort. If the money is that important, simply get a second job at McDonald's for a couple months - because it will be much less time and frustration for the money than trying to get a full refund.

 

A plus is that your skin looks very good - no redness or bumpy texture, which plagued me. Also it looks like mostly singles at the front, so that will be easy for a good surgeon to work with.

 

I have been impressed with Dr. Konior's work, and am intrigued that he will use nape hair to soften a hairline; though I have not met with Dr. Konior personally or seen any of his work up close - only online photos.

 

And of the posters, I generally find myself agreeing with Gasthoerer, even if sometimes he's a bit...PMSing or something. ^^ But he has good observations and good advice.

[Speran28]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and comments. I really do appreciate every single one! I had been way too busy with working full time and running my own company on the side to answer until now.

 

Because......

 

I just had my transplant to fix this with Dr. Cooley. And, let me say that this was a night and day experience!

 

My old transplant was from Dr. Mcgrath who did give me a 50% refund and apologize for this procedure. I did appreciate him doing that. However, in hindsight and after this experience I could not possibly recommend the clinic.

 

Dr. Cooley is beyond thorough and I can't thank him enough.

 

Here's how the day went.

 

He started by spending over 30 minutes discussing exactly what I wanted while actively encouraging me to show examples to him and explain all of my concerns

 

When then moved into his photo area where he himself took the photos (a tech took them in my last procedure). Then he spent ~30 minutes analyzing my hair from every angle, measuring my head and hairline, and discussing what may be needed as long as I was okay with it.

 

At the end of this, it was decided my hairline was created too low, with far too little density, along with grafts being thicker one hair grafts then he would have used. He ended up removing, it seemed like around ~100 grafts all along my hairline with electrolysis to really clean it up and create a more appropriate hairline to match my head shape and facial structure. I can already tell!

 

Then we moved into his surgical room, he spent a long time carefully removing the strict and old scar. He has to take extra care because there was a lot of scar tissue and he did not want to transect any follicles. He closed up the donor using a double tricho closure (i had a single last time) and also stuffed it full with Acell to further promote healing. I am to keep the suture in for 3 weeks, it was only 10 days on my last procedure. I am confident this will greatly help with my scar.

 

From there he started creating incision using different size tools based on where the hair was placed, this was an extremely methodical process with only maybe 50% being done then, while the rest were created later using the stick and place method.

~5 techs dissected hairs delicately into 4 categories. FINE single hairs, normal single hairs, doubles, and triples or higher. The fine single hairs are especially important for me because of my coarse dark hair on light skin.

 

Then, we took a lunch break, with an amazing lunch they wheeled in for me.

 

After lunch he injected PRP all along my scalp to help with thinning areas and also promote healing where he placed the graft and in the donor area.

 

Finally, they started with graft placed. The amazing thing to me was that Dr. Cooley was there every step of the way. I believe he actually placed the majority of the grafts himself, I mean it when I say this guy is a machine. It is absolutely amazing what he does and how well practiced the process felt from start to finish.

 

After that, he gave me a bag of medication, topical solutions, and sprays. This also included very detailed instructions all nicely written down for every step. He went over them verbally with me as well.

 

Truly a night and day experience. I think the post op photos here will speak for themselves in comparison to my post op photos from my past surgery of which you can find at the beginning of this post.

 

NOTE: Again, the large red splotches are from electrolysis removal of old grafts. These should fully heal in less then a week.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Speran28

[Speran28]

Update, showing my donor scar only 1 month after surgery with Dr. Cooley vs my donor scar 8 months after my previous surgery with Dr. Mcgrath. The second picture is the 8 month from first surgery.

 

I only had my sutures taken out 1 week ago and feel it has healed extremely well. My old scar was still very red at this time period and had hypertrophy starting to take place, this scar feels far flatter and I can feel little hair growing through slowly on account of the double tricho closure that was done.

[voxman]

Oh Hell yeah...great looking work and you will be so happy no one will stand to be around you for long because of your constant looking in the mirror.

[pkipling]

Yes! The post-op photos from Dr. Cooley are exactly what your recipient area should look like after a HT. This is going to be a drastically improved result from the first procedure and I'm really happy you were able to get this fixed.

And not for nothing, the way you kept your composure and stayed level headed throughout this entire process has been very refreshing to see, and I look forward to seeing some great results in the near future. 

[thatoldchestnut]

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to go through a failed/unsatisfactory hair transplant. I am glad you are on the path to recovery though.

I'm sure Dr. Cooley will do you proud, all the best!

[Speran28]

Appreciate the feedback guys! Thank you all very much. Yes, I have tried my best to stay level headed, accept what happened, and figure out a solution. There is nothing else I really could do, other then continue these post and hope others learn from this. 

2 month update on Dr. Cooley transplant:

Donor Area:

Scar has healed a lot more, and is very flat, I have a hard time finding it now vs my old one which had keloid issues and hurt even a year after surgery. I barely feel this one. The downside is that even though I have been very careful and followed Dr. Cooley's instructions, it seems to have maybe stretched a bit? It is a double tricho closure though, so maybe in the next 2 months hairs will grow through. 

Transplanted area:

No hair growth yet that I can find, this is to be expected at 2 months. All transplanted hairs fell out at around 3-5  week mark. I think by the 4 month there will be noticeable growth. As far as the electrolysis,  you can see my head does still slightly noticeable markings, but it is healing nicely and I expect it to be completely healed by month 3. 

 

Feel free to ask questions if you have any.

[Legend007]

If this ur ur 2 month result . U have great potential for a good outcome .

ur hair caliber looks thick.. that’s a good start .. keep us updated .

[newpatient99]

@Speran28

Any more updates?

[Speegs]

Top tier docs make all the difference, keep us posted with updates on the progress of the repair session.