Senior Member paleocapa89 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Although I do think there is a time and place for a discussion about the necessary mental toughness for a hair transplant and the doctor's responsibility in assessing the patient for it, please lets keep this thread for discussing the issues concerning Dr Hakan Doganay. For example the responsibility of properly assessing a patient physically and properly informing a patient based on the physical assessment. Or the fact that according to Xkos48 when he had his procedure in September 2013 his operation was carried out mainly by techs and ended up with a very poor result although on the physician page of Hairrestiorationnetwork.com it was clearly advertised that Dr Hakan Doganay extracts and implants all the grafts himself. Dr. Hakan Doganay*Hair Transplant Surgeon in*Antalya,*Turkey this is from September 2013 Edited October 21, 2015 by paleocapa89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member esrec Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 I agree... you do need to calm down...not for us, but for yourself. Worrying will bring you no closer to the outcome or resolution you desire. Try and take a step back..... I take no issue with you being panicked, I understand it. The difference between electice and non-elective surgery is most often mental vs physical. The former is usually more difficult. We've all suffered.. I've had some of my darkest hours due to my hair loss...I dont judge your panic, if anything, you're just being vulnerable. In the end, You maybe trusted the doctor more than you should have... we can all debate the merit in that. I think you'd agree if you were as thorough on the front end as you've been since, you'd be content with your decision. But remember, its early in the game... this is still a good doctor and no matter how bad the outcome it'll still be an improvement. Next time you'll do things a little differently... I think we can all say that about most things. Try and stay positive and be patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member aim4hair Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 I know where you coming from as Im not satisfied with my HT as well (was done with a different doc) and was thinking of going to dr. Hakan for repair but I'm glad I saw your post. I know it's easier said that done but try to not think too much about the future as you never know when would you lose the rest of your hair as it could be years from now so why to worry much about something you can't change now. I hope at least your result would be decent. My advice to you for now is to get on Rogaine foam and Nizoral (keto) ASAP and believe me they work and help you maintain what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Stig Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Is it the doctors job to evaluate your mental health to make sure you are not going to be a shrieking, panicking wreck post HT? I don't think it is. Don't think its appropriate to expect a HT doctor to carry the burden of evaluating a patient for psychological issues, but if the doctor whitnesses warning signs, he should apply judgement and decline the procedure if appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TR3B Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Not to derail the thread but Aim4hair do you have a thread running on your HT? I'd be interested to have a look at your results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Stig Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 For example the responsibility of properly assessing a patient physically and properly informing a patient based on the physical assessment. Paleo, I am not convinced the Dr did not perform an adequate assessment. My experience has been that the the doctor takes what seems like a quick look at the hair and donor supply and is able to quickly guage all that he needs to know. Remember, thats what these guys do for a living, and they see thousands of patients a year, I would imagine they can make a very quick assessment. Like I said before, and you evaded my question, did you go to another doctor to evaluate your remaining donor supply and hair loss pattern, and did he/she provide feedback that your donor supply is in fact too low to accomodate future hair loss? If you haven't done this, then how can you claim that the Dr should not have performed a procedure on you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member aim4hair Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Not to derail the thread but Aim4hair do you have a thread running on your HT? I'd be interested to have a look at your results. Don't have a thread yet might create one soon Back to this thread. One thing I'm surprised no one mentioned is that knowing this patient family history and the fact that he is not willing to take fin do you guys think it was a wise choice by the doctor to use 2500 grafts for that small area and work on the patient's temples as well ? I'm not expert but I think unless the patient has a GREAT donor area (which I can't judge myself) it wasn't a good call by the doctor to use that much grafts in that small area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Stig Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Answers to the claims: I arrived to Dr Hakan Doganay with a receding hairline and he merely looked at my head and did not evaluate my hair loss and miniaturization at all. If he did, it would had become clear that I not only have a receding hairline but a full, advanced norwood 5A-6 balding pattern. If I was told that, I would never had went through with the procedure. I clearly articulated before the procedure that I do not want to take propecia due to sides. We talked about potential future hair loss given my family history, but I was not informed that I am already way down the road. ( I became aware of my hairloss situation when my hair started to grow back postop) - Dr. Hakan Doganay did not evaluate my donor capacity either. He carelessly drew a new (somewhat low) hairline on my head using up 2500 grafts (for which I already paid for in advance). He did not warn me about my ongoing hair loss, or come up with a conservative game plan for the long term. You had operation on 11th and 12th July, 2015. Before the operation, you wanted to visit our clinic for a face to face consultation, and you come to the clinic on 26th May, 2015. In this consultation we evaluated the donor area and hairless area. We clearly mentioned that you may need a second operation in the future due to further hairloss, you need to use medicine, otherwise you could lose your hair. Additionally, after the face to face consultation, you mentioned in your email that you wonder whether you should go even more than 2500 grafts, and we replied that "please also think for future hairloss". Please check the emails on May 28, 2015. In the IAHRS website it was written that Dr. Hakan Doganay extracts and implants the grafts himself, I only found out later that he uses techs with very little experience do all the extraction and a part of the implantation as well. Dr. Hakan Doganay – Turkey Hair Transplant MD | IAHRS Member You had operation on 11th and 12th July, 2015. Before the operation, on April 21, 2015 you asked about procedure details in your email. We emailed you the following link for the plan and details: www.hakandoganayfue.com/hair-transplantation/our-methods In the link, the surgery details including the extraction procedure explained. Please check the email on April 21, 2015. - They may have wasted a number of my grafts and to compensate either harvested more and/or implanted less grafts. I admit, this one claim I cannot prove. However the techs were dropping equipment and cursing during the operation and I have a picture with discarded grafts laying on top of my head. I have uploaded my post-op donor picture and a bunch of post op donor pictures from other clinics’ 2500 graft procedures and compared to them my donor area looks overharvested and thinned out in certain points. In my opinion they either transected a lot of grafts, harvested more or didn’t care about the pattern at all. When I mentioned the donor scarring they told me thatafter a FUE procedure one should wear its hair at least 1-1,5 cm long to cover it!! To my understanding the very reason of a FUE procedure is to be able to wear my hair 4-5mm long. Anyway, my hair is longer than 1,5 cm and the signs of the scarring is still visible. Anyone can check it and decide. The grafts were not wasted. Normally, we transplant 2500 grafts in 1 day, but upon your request, we did your operation in 2 days. Additionally, in your email you mentioned that another clinic advised 4200 grafts. We emailed back that it seems that you don't need 4200 grafts, and around 2500 grafts should be enough, but the exact number of grafts will be decided when you are in our clinic. Also, we advised to get estimation for the number of grafts from other top clinics to double check. Please check your email on April 13th, 2015. Before the operation in the clinic, we mentioned that wearing hair at least 1-1,5 cm long depending on the scalp is necessary to cover the sign of the operation.Also, your donor on the pictures seem normal for 4 months. - Upon questioning they told me that they implanted 50 grafts/cm2 (check the pictures to see if that is true) and that they have harvested 2500 grafts (check the pictures if that is true) Upon questioning they told me I have an average donor with 45-50 grafts/cm2, which is a guess at best as they never measured it, and it is way out of the literature which states an average donor is between 65-85 grafts/cm2. If my donor density was in fact 50 grafts/cm2 that would had meant that it was low and I was not suitable for a FUE hair transplant. Distribution of Human Hair in Follicular Units - ResearchGate As we mentioned in our email, we meant the density of the receiving area, which is 45-50 grafts/per cm2. Please check the "after 2 weeks" pictures showing the density of the receiving area. The donor area supply was enough as it can be seen on the pictures. Otherwise, we would not accept this operation. There are some potential patients.And even if some of them insist to have operation from our clinic, we reject them since their supplies are not enough. In my experience they are more like a hair transplant mill than a quality clinic. I was rushed through the whole procedure starting from the inadequate evaluation through the operation itself which (for the most part) was carried out by techs with minimal experience. I have reason to believe they are having 2-4 procedures a day seven days a week in two locations. As we mentioned, normally, we transplant 2500 grafts in 1 day, but upon your request, we did your operation in 2 days, and your operation was not rushed. We have 1 or maximum 2 procedures a day, and we have only one location. As our regular process, we keep monitoring our patients by asking them to update us with the pictures until seeing the full result as we do for you. Thanks Dr Doganay, why did you agree to perform this procedure if this patient made it clear he would not be going on Fin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member paleocapa89 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Sorry, I didn't see your question, but I certainly didn't evade it. Yes, I have been to an other HT doc and he said probably another 2000 can be extracted from my donor. If you look at this picture, I would hardly think it is enough to cover for my future hairloss. And I would like to disagree with your statement of one quick look being enough for an assessment. You cant measure donor density without looking at a sample of the donor scalp under a microscope and measuring the hair density / cm2, and then extrapolating from that sample. And you can't come up with a proper game plan without checking the miniaturization pattern under a microscope as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member biolizard Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 I agree... you do need to calm down...not for us, but for yourself. Worrying will bring you no closer to the outcome or resolution you desire. Try and take a step back..... I take no issue with you being panicked, I understand it. The difference between electice and non-elective surgery is most often mental vs physical. The former is usually more difficult. We've all suffered.. I've had some of my darkest hours due to my hair loss...I dont judge your panic, if anything, you're just being vulnerable. In the end, You maybe trusted the doctor more than you should have... we can all debate the merit in that. I think you'd agree if you were as thorough on the front end as you've been since, you'd be content with your decision. But remember, its early in the game... this is still a good doctor and no matter how bad the outcome it'll still be an improvement. Next time you'll do things a little differently... I think we can all say that about most things. Try and stay positive and be patient. I like this advice. And this is the kind of post I need to see too, to help me with my own ability to cope right now. I have never once been on medication for any psychological condition. Never been clinically depressed. I would deem myself mentally rock solid prior to this FUE HT ! But seriously this FUE HT has brought me to my f*ing knees mentally! I've never experienced anything that has shaken me like this. I'm ashamed to admit but in my darkest hours I've even grappled with ridiculous notions of suicide. I know it's stupid, but I can't help the thoughts that pop into my head. What can say other than that since my HT, I have become depressed. That's just the way it is right now for me. I've never had such a demoralizing blow to my self imaging and right there on my face and forehead for the world to judge me! OMG! My recipient area is badly red purple discolored, scaly, bumpy, and I swear I can't imagine it ever getting to the point that it will be undetectable from the surrounding area of normal skin. It's scarred damaged tissue it would appear to be. I'm struggling to come to terms with this fact. This dreaded red line across my forehead just mocks me every time I glance in a mirror. A daily reminder of this mistake I made. But what can you do really? The only thing I can do is wear a hat to conceal my embarrassment and this also avoids questions and judgement. In addition, try and stay as positive as I can. I've definitely learned that even a mediocre FUE HT is WAY WORSE than just being bald! My advice to anyone seeking a HT is to take more time than I did and consider all the risk carefully. Don't jump into this like I did. I should've just accept my the aging process and balding with dignity, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TR3B Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 But what can you do really? The only thing I can do is wear a hat to conceal my embarrassment and this also avoids questions and judgement. In addition, try and stay as positive as I can. You can erm.....wait? You're being ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member 1978matt Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Your bias for FUT is incredible, if this were an FUT Doctor you'd be shouting that it's only been 4 months to allow time, but since it's an FUE physician and procedure you're damning the procedure as a whole on one persons unfinished results. I prefer and try and help this guy out by looking at things from a better perspective rather than use his misery to push my pro FUT agenda, but that's just me. The only thing that is finished is his donor area. Annihilated by overharvesting. FUE is fine if people are screened beforehand. 4,312 FUT grafts (7,676 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - August 2013 1,145 FUE grafts (3,152 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - August 2018 763 FUE grafts (2,094 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - January 2020 Proscar 1.25mg every 3rd day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member paleocapa89 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Biolizard, although I do not know how bad your situation is and how many months have passed since your op, If you truly feel your healing is subpar I can only advise you to state your concerns to the clinic that did your procedures and if you are not getting any help than go see a dermatologist, My recipient area looked like crap for more than 3 months when I turned to a trusted HT doc and a dermatologist who properly assessed me. since then I can see major improvements in color and bumpiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member biolizard Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Biolizard, although I do not know how bad your situation is and how many months have passed since your op, If you truly feel your healing is subpar I can only advise you to state your concerns to the clinic that did your procedures and if you are not getting any help than go see a dermatologist, My recipient area looked like crap for more than 3 months when I turned to a trusted HT doc and a dermatologist who properly assessed me. since then I can see major improvements in color and bumpiness. It's been 2 1/2 months. Not sure how it's "suppose" to look. But many other people's FUE I saw on YouTube at the 2 month mark didn't look like mine. I honestly would prefer to see a qualified dermatologist at this point and get his opinion on what has transpired. He may say that it's ok, maybe he will give me antibiotics, or some cream. I've read somewhere that rubbing Vit E oil on it would help with the scarring, so I started doing that. But that's not as good as being evaluated by a dermatologist. It just seems to me that after 2 months time, the skin area should've had plenty enough time to heal back to normal if it was going to. Good advice. I will make an appointment with a dermatologist and get their assessment and recommendations Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Stig Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Sorry, I didn't see your question, but I certainly didn't evade it. Yes, I have been to an other HT doc and he said probably another 2000 can be extracted from my donor. If you look at this picture, I would hardly think it is enough to cover for my future hairloss.. Okay, now you are talking business. If I can make a suggestion to you, send the results of your 2nd consultation to the moderators, and now that you can show that other surgeons have evaluated your lifetime donor supply to be welll below average, you should ask Dr Doganay what number he estimates your life time grafts to be , and in his opinion what lifetime plan he had in mind for you. Honestly, this is the type of facts you should have documented initially, as now you can show you have evidence to back up your allegations. I think it is starting to make sense, although I still think you should wait 6 months, then maximise the remaining 2,000 grafts conservatively, try get some BHT done, and then rivert to SMP into the vertex/crown areas. That should hold you for longer than you think, and you may be surprized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Buzz2 Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 I would like David the moderator to clarify his comments "Again if you take time to review the many listed complaints. Many just dont hold water at this point in time" Are you referring to the complaints listed by about 15 different memebers or the complaints listed by Paleo? Id be very dissapointed if its the former. Whilst Paleos comments are very concerning, ultimately he could end up with a good result, but looking at the work I believe this is unlikely. HT No1 : Nobel clinic, Gatwick 500 grafts - Terrible result, left with bumpy skin HT No2 : Marwan Saifi 1680 grafts. Great result HT No3 - Marwan Saifi 1250 grafts. Another good result. HT No4 - Hakan Doganay 2134 grafts. Result TBA Total 5134 grafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Melvin- Admin Posted October 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted October 21, 2015 Which physician did the evaluation? 2,000 grafts seems incredibly low, your donor area doesn't look completely obliterated, have you considered body hair? What about smp? You could always do smp to the scars and recipient area, hopefully you get descent growth for the hairline and I think you'll be okay, there are inidividuals in far worse situations than yourself, the fact that you're young and have a high Norwood pattern doesn't automatically disqualify you from hair restoration. I would also like to add that measuring your donor density a few months after surgery could be deceiving there is a real possibility you're experiencing shock loss. I’m a paid admin for Hair Transplant Network. I do not receive any compensation from any clinic. My comments are not medical advice. Check out my final hair transplant and topical dutasteride journey: View my thread Topical dutasteride journey Melvin- Managing Publisher and Forum Moderator for the Hair Transplant Network, the Coalition Hair Loss Learning Center, and the Hair Loss Q&A Blog. Follow our Social Media: Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, and YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member William1 Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 I too had to face the BS answers and evasion from the clinic. I know what paleocapa89 is talking about. There is a problem with Doctor Doganay. As a matter of fact the reason why I (a French person) gave my testimony on this English speaking forum about my hair transplant with Dr Doganay is because the French forum on which I got in contact with Doganay's team, didn't want anything to do with Doganay anymore. They erased him from the list of their recommended doctors because his team made their patients and potential future patients believe that hair transplant was a very simple thing. Very aggressive marketing. Furthermore, a very active contributor in this French forum called "Caraglio" was inciting people to get a hair transplant with Doganay, because he expected to get a nice price for his future own hair transplant with Doganay. They caught him somehow by getting access to his conversation to Doganay's french agent "Enzy". Here it is, for those who can speak french: Mise au point du 05-05-2013 - International Hair Loss Forum They erased all the forum threads about Doganay, and even erased the name "Doganay" itself from all over the forum and replaced it by "Dr D." I guess anyone can contact the admin of this French forum for further details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member paleocapa89 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Unfortunately I did not receive a written proof of the measurement as I had visited the HT doc to evaluate my badly looking recipient area since that was my main concern at that time. And yes, it might be lower now since I might be experiencing shock loss, I will go back in a couple of month and have it measured again and get a written proof of it. However I don't think it will be much higher, since it seems my hair is not really dense. I'd say its a below average maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member William1 Posted October 21, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Paleocapa89, baldness is also a normal thing. Everybody knows it's normal and only some quite superficial and immature girls think it's not. And baldness has its charms too. Look at this french politican from the XIXth century, he looks pretty nice. A lot nicer than today's dumb superhero actors if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Stig Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Paleocapa89, baldness is also a normal thing. Everybody knows it's normal and only some quite superficial and immature girls think it's not. And baldness has its charms too. Look at this french politican from the XIXth century, he looks pretty nice. A lot nicer than today's dumb superhero actors if you ask me. He looks like the baby face on Gerber baby food bottles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member LondonHTseeker Posted October 21, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 21, 2015 Interesting romantic-era comb forward! paleo why not go on Propecia? The sides will likely disappear. It's true to say your hair loss future looks bleak otherwise and probably relatively soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Paleo, You are obviously upset and angry and obviously looking for someone to demonized and blame. I had initially posted that I share some of your concerns and instantly you attack me and seemingly purposely misinterpret my words. The publishers of this community have provided you with this venue to express your concerns and instead if thanking us you'd rather try to kick us in the teeth. I don't know what you want or expect from us at this point in time but at 3 or 4 months the only thing I can say is "wait it out". At the end of the day I do hope you get the results you deserve but at this time i don't see what else we can do. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Melvin- Admin Posted October 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted October 21, 2015 Unfortunately I did not receive a written proof of the measurement as I had visited the HT doc to evaluate my badly looking recipient area since that was my main concern at that time. And yes, it might be lower now since I might be experiencing shock loss, I will go back in a couple of month and have it measured again and get a written proof of it. However I don't think it will be much higher, since it seems my hair is not really dense. I'd say its a below average maybe Paleo I don't see anything wrong with your donor area, here your shaved down to a zero did you expect there to be no scars? I'd say that's descent scarring most definitely not bad. I'm tending to agree that perhaps you were not a good candidate, your expectations seem high for the level of baldness you have, the doctor is partially responsible in informing you that there is no surgery without scars, and that you may need additional surgeries and that possibly you'll never have a full head of hair, if I may ask what was your expectation? I'm also young not as young as you but still young, and frankly I'm good with at least enough hair to frame my face, I've planned out my surgeries so that they will look good not only now that I'm 30 but when I'm 40,50,60 etc. You seem hellbent on the fact that you'll never have enough grafts to make up for future loss, but assuming these grafts grow in at least 80% and you get another surgery at 2,000 grafts, you'll be at 3,500 grafts give or take, placed wisely that isn't a bad result, it's all about perspective and I think your perspective is definitely not fit for anyone looking in to hair restoration, hair restoration is most definitely not perfect and you'll never be not bald, it's not a cure it's merely a crafty illusion. But it's important to know you're not the only young guy who's gotten a hair transplant who didn't plan for future hairloss, there are ways to go about making the situation better, that's ultimately what surgery is all about, simply improving your situation, that's the way I view it. I’m a paid admin for Hair Transplant Network. I do not receive any compensation from any clinic. My comments are not medical advice. Check out my final hair transplant and topical dutasteride journey: View my thread Topical dutasteride journey Melvin- Managing Publisher and Forum Moderator for the Hair Transplant Network, the Coalition Hair Loss Learning Center, and the Hair Loss Q&A Blog. Follow our Social Media: Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, and YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Spanker Posted October 22, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted October 22, 2015 I don't see anything abnormal in the donor and it looks very average with good caliber. I am an online representative for Dr. Raymond Konior who is an elite member of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians. View Dr. Konior's Website View Spanker's Website I am not a medical professional and my opinions should not be taken as medical advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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