WARNING, if considering Dr Hakan Doganay, read this first

[esrec]

I didn't like that the dr didn't check on me before I left, I believe he was going out of the country but still at least a bye would have sufficed, I also didn't like that I was basically knocked out for most of the procedure, how much he did himself is unknown I know he designed my hairline, how much of the extraction is a mystery can't say it was him or his techs cause I was out. Overall it lacked good bedside manner, don't need to be treated like a baby, but don't like to feel like a number either, but that's not to say the result will be bad, I'm hopeful it's going to be good, he certainly has the portfolio to show he's a very skilled surgeon and one of the best. But I will not be making a thread about everything unless the final result is available, at that point if I'm unhappy no doubt a detailed thread will be made, but if ppl ask about my experience I'm willing to share it.

 

All valid and objective feelings. Bedside manner is a big consideration for most. You paid a lot of $$ and trusted this person with your head. A little empathy goes a long way. Big reason why I called this out in OP post--if you dont care during the surgery, whats that say about afterwards.

 

Any recipient or donor area concerns? Understand if you want to wait before commenting.

[CJD]

Oh and David can you check CJD's ip address? I believe it is an banned poster or one of their cronies. I suppose you remember the troubles we had wIth Dr M's gang few months ago. He is bashing Dr Koray Erdogan without any valid proof or links. I even send him an private message and he has not responded.

 

 

Thank you for showing me that you said this about me. I was not aware of it as I have a busy life, and this forum is not it. This post further exemplifies the type of behavior you have exhibited with me on this site with your attacking me for giving my opinion to OTHER people and for telling others the truth about a bad experience with Dr. Erdogan. I am not a banned poster. I have no connections to anyone unlike yourself. The forum administrator knows of my problem and of my complaint against Dr. Erdogan because I contacted him long ago at the time it occurred. I am not saying anything about Dr. Erdogan that I have not raised with the forum administrator previously, that I have not experienced myself, read or been told by others , or that I have not posted DIRECTLY TO Dr. Erdogan on the site for him to respond to. It appears from your posts that you have an agenda and that you do not feel others are allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours. I will provide a link to another thread for others to see that outlines my experience with you attacking me and how you contacted me by PM simply because I gave my opinion to someone when it was asked for. Your posts and behavior thereafter show and confirm that it was done in a provocative manner and not in an innocent way that you claimed. My post even predicts how you and others will behave when someone speaks the truth about a negative encounter with any doctor. I was correct. Anyone viewing this can see what has transpired. I don't have time to keep up with it all nor do I care to act childish. What I have said and how I have said it speak for themselves. I am glad you are simply calling more attention to my posts.

 

It certainly appears from your actions that you are the one with connections to a doctor. You go around to every post and attack anyone who has a negative thing to say about Dr. Erdogan or me for warning others about my bad experience with him. You have even made up lies about me here. I will not go down to that level. I am very honest and unbiased in my advice on the forum. It can easily be seen that I often tell people to do their research and often make people aware of truthful information I have seen about multiple doctors. I tell people to make their own informed decisions. You continue to say that I am "bashing" Dr. Erdogan. My bad experience was with Dr. Erdogan so that is the only doctor I can personally speak badly about. Telling people about being treated badly by a doctor and making people aware of bad things about that doctor is not "bashing" someone. it is being truthful. My opinion of Dr. Erdogan will not change because of the way I was treated by him and due to the fact that he never resolved nor even attempted to resolve my problem nor what was done to me.

 

While you have claimed to have no connections to Dr. Erdogan in another thread you ARE a patient of his. I have also pointed out how you have been dishonest with your statements in the thread I will link (which I am sure you will now edit) and also completely misquoted what I wrote. You have attacked me here for speaking the truth. I am now simply responding to your accusations about me again. I joined this site seeking a source for truthful information and will continue to provide truthful information to others in order to help serve the purpose of this site and help prevent others from having a bad experience when making a very important decision in their life.

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/181181-fue-live-consultation-dr-koray-erdogan-5000-grafts-too-much.html

 

You are obviously angry because I have warned people about some negative things surrounding Dr. Erdogan and about my bad experience which I am allowed to do. Prospective patients should be aware of bad things that have happened with all doctors. It helps raise the quality of care everywhere. Would this site be legitimate if it only included good things about doctors ? Would it be believable if no one was ever treated wrong by any doctor ? A doctor should never treat someone in a poor and disrespectful manner like I was if they do not want to have someone talk badly about them in a public place. Despite that and contrary to your behavior, I have always respected your right and everyone's right to have and form their own opinions. I do not attack anyone for holding a contrary opinion or for speaking well of a doctor. Intelligent people can assess the information for themselves as well as the behavior of people such as yourself and decide who is acting in a respectful, professional, and honest manner.

[Melvin- Admin]

Alright, a lot of people seem to be giving extra attention to my claim of graft wastage, and not the other ones which in my opinion are much more unsettling. Although I do have a photo with two grafts laying on top of my head and I do think the techs behaved unprofessional from time to time during the operation, I admit I can not prove they wasted more than those two grafts.

 

However the possible overharvestation of my donor area does concern me as many former patient of Dr Hakan Doganay ended up with badly scarred donor. And the fact that the clinic is telling me after the procedure that a FUE scarring should be covered with at least 1-1,5cm long hair is just infuriating. It contradicts the very reason of having a FUE procedure.

 

I took a second look at your donor pictures, there is a section that seems to be a bit lighter, could be over harvesting could be shock loss it's too soon to tell, however your scarring doesn't look bad, in most of the photos your hair seems to be at a 1 guard and it's not really noticeable, try adding lipogaine to your routine, it can help with shock loss if it is shock loss. But either way I definitely don't see your donor area being a problem, it doesn't look bad to me, that's not to say your concerns aren't valid, I'm just saying looking at it from the outside your donor doesn't look like its ravaged but if you want get a second opinion from a hair professional through a one on one consultation.

[ZeoRanger]

Thank you for showing me that you said this about me. I was not aware of it as I have a busy life, and this forum is not it. This post further exemplifies the type of behavior you have exhibited with me on this site with your attacking me for giving my opinion to OTHER people and for telling others the truth about a bad experience with Dr. Erdogan. I am not a banned poster. I have no connections to anyone unlike yourself. The forum administrator knows of my problem and of my complaint against Dr. Erdogan because I contacted him long ago at the time it occurred. I am not saying anything about Dr. Erdogan that I have not raised with the forum administrator previously, that I have not experienced myself, read or been told by others , or that I have not posted DIRECTLY TO Dr. Erdogan on the site for him to respond to. It appears from your posts that you have an agenda and that you do not feel others are allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours. I will provide a link to another thread for others to see that outlines my experience with you attacking me and how you contacted me by PM simply because I gave my opinion to someone when it was asked for. Your posts and behavior thereafter show and confirm that it was done in a provocative manner and not in an innocent way that you claimed. My post even predicts how you and others will behave when someone speaks the truth about a negative encounter with any doctor. I was correct. Anyone viewing this can see what has transpired. I don't have time to keep up with it all nor do I care to act childish. What I have said and how I have said it speak for themselves. I am glad you are simply calling more attention to my posts.

 

It certainly appears from your actions that you are the one with connections to a doctor. You go around to every post and attack anyone who has a negative thing to say about Dr. Erdogan or me for warning others about my bad experience with him. You have even made up lies about me here. I will not go down to that level. I am very honest and unbiased in my advice on the forum. It can easily be seen that I often tell people to do their research and often make people aware of truthful information I have seen about multiple doctors. I tell people to make their own informed decisions. You continue to say that I am "bashing" Dr. Erdogan. My bad experience was with Dr. Erdogan so that is the only doctor I can personally speak badly about. Telling people about being treated badly by a doctor and making people aware of bad things about that doctor is not "bashing" someone. it is being truthful. My opinion of Dr. Erdogan will not change because of the way I was treated by him and due to the fact that he never resolved nor even attempted to resolve my problem nor what was done to me.

 

While you have claimed to have no connections to Dr. Erdogan in another thread you ARE a patient of his. I have also pointed out how you have been dishonest with your statements in the thread I will link (which I am sure you will now edit) and also completely misquoted what I wrote. You have attacked me here for speaking the truth. I am now simply responding to your accusations about me again. I joined this site seeking a source for truthful information and will continue to provide truthful information to others in order to help serve the purpose of this site and help prevent others from having a bad experience when making a very important decision in their life.

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/181181-fue-live-consultation-dr-koray-erdogan-5000-grafts-too-much.html

 

You are obviously angry because I have warned people about some negative things surrounding Dr. Erdogan and about my bad experience which I am allowed to do. Prospective patients should be aware of bad things that have happened with all doctors. It helps raise the quality of care everywhere. Would this site be legitimate if it only included good things about doctors ? Would it be believable if no one was ever treated wrong by any doctor ? A doctor should never treat someone in a poor and disrespectful manner like I was if they do not want to have someone talk badly about them in a public place. Despite that and contrary to your behavior, I have always respected your right and everyone's right to have and form their own opinions. I do not attack anyone for holding a contrary opinion or for speaking well of a doctor. Intelligent people can assess the information for themselves as well as the behavior of people such as yourself and decide who is acting in a respectful, professional, and honest manner.

 

By vaguely saying you were mistreated and that you know some other people who had issues with Erdogan you're not helping or warning anyone?

 

Exactly what is your problem? Grafts didn't grow? Bad scarring? Grew a unicorn instead of hair? What is it that went wrong? Cut to the chase, bro.

[Yaz89]

Thank you for showing me that you said this about me. I was not aware of it as I have a busy life, and this forum is not it. This post further exemplifies the type of behavior you have exhibited with me on this site with your attacking me for giving my opinion to OTHER people and for telling others the truth about a bad experience with Dr. Erdogan. I am not a banned poster. I have no connections to anyone unlike yourself. The forum administrator knows of my problem and of my complaint against Dr. Erdogan because I contacted him long ago at the time it occurred. I am not saying anything about Dr. Erdogan that I have not raised with the forum administrator previously, that I have not experienced myself, read or been told by others , or that I have not posted DIRECTLY TO Dr. Erdogan on the site for him to respond to. It appears from your posts that you have an agenda and that you do not feel others are allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours. I will provide a link to another thread for others to see that outlines my experience with you attacking me and how you contacted me by PM simply because I gave my opinion to someone when it was asked for. Your posts and behavior thereafter show and confirm that it was done in a provocative manner and not in an innocent way that you claimed. My post even predicts how you and others will behave when someone speaks the truth about a negative encounter with any doctor. I was correct. Anyone viewing this can see what has transpired. I don't have time to keep up with it all nor do I care to act childish. What I have said and how I have said it speak for themselves. I am glad you are simply calling more attention to my posts.

 

It certainly appears from your actions that you are the one with connections to a doctor. You go around to every post and attack anyone who has a negative thing to say about Dr. Erdogan or me for warning others about my bad experience with him. You have even made up lies about me here. I will not go down to that level. I am very honest and unbiased in my advice on the forum. It can easily be seen that I often tell people to do their research and often make people aware of truthful information I have seen about multiple doctors. I tell people to make their own informed decisions. You continue to say that I am "bashing" Dr. Erdogan. My bad experience was with Dr. Erdogan so that is the only doctor I can personally speak badly about. Telling people about being treated badly by a doctor and making people aware of bad things about that doctor is not "bashing" someone. it is being truthful. My opinion of Dr. Erdogan will not change because of the way I was treated by him and due to the fact that he never resolved nor even attempted to resolve my problem nor what was done to me.

 

While you have claimed to have no connections to Dr. Erdogan in another thread you ARE a patient of his. I have also pointed out how you have been dishonest with your statements in the thread I will link (which I am sure you will now edit) and also completely misquoted what I wrote. You have attacked me here for speaking the truth. I am now simply responding to your accusations about me again. I joined this site seeking a source for truthful information and will continue to provide truthful information to others in order to help serve the purpose of this site and help prevent others from having a bad experience when making a very important decision in their life.

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/181181-fue-live-consultation-dr-koray-erdogan-5000-grafts-too-much.html

 

You are obviously angry because I have warned people about some negative things surrounding Dr. Erdogan and about my bad experience which I am allowed to do. Prospective patients should be aware of bad things that have happened with all doctors. It helps raise the quality of care everywhere. Would this site be legitimate if it only included good things about doctors ? Would it be believable if no one was ever treated wrong by any doctor ? A doctor should never treat someone in a poor and disrespectful manner like I was if they do not want to have someone talk badly about them in a public place. Despite that and contrary to your behavior, I have always respected your right and everyone's right to have and form their own opinions. I do not attack anyone for holding a contrary opinion or for speaking well of a doctor. Intelligent people can assess the information for themselves as well as the behavior of people such as yourself and decide who is acting in a respectful, professional, and honest manner.

 

This was posted yesterday as I was not aware of your problems with Dr Koray. Today, in the above link, I have already responded to you. I believe it unwise to bring Dr Koray in unrelevant thread. I have already wished you well in your agende.

 

Of course this forum is a place to share information and have the right to free speech.

Althought it works like this, most posters do need solid evidence. I once again ask you to start your own thread with pictures and they will be judged fairly.

 

No need to create lies about me being dishonest. I have may have edited my post but I did then say I have been rude to you; I even apologised.

[Petchski]

Even if 50% of what paleo is saying is true, his post along with the other patient experiences are pretty damning.

[Torn]

Paleo, thank you for coming forward with your story. I believe it is the true spirit of this site to not only post the great results but to warn of the bad as well. It is unfortunate that some who come forward are criticized, though hopefully it will not stop others from doing the same. Surely the doctors do not post their less than acceptable results. It's only from the patients that we hear of them.

[Melvin- Admin]

By vaguely saying you were mistreated and that you know some other people who had issues with Erdogan you're not helping or warning anyone?

 

Exactly what is your problem? Grafts didn't grow? Bad scarring? Grew a unicorn instead of hair? What is it that went wrong? Cut to the chase, bro.

I agree were all here to helpe eachother out and share our experiences, being vague provides no help at all.

[CJD]

This was posted yesterday as I was not aware of your problems with Dr Koray. Today, in the above link, I have already responded to you. I believe it unwise to bring Dr Koray in unrelevant thread. I have already wished you well in your agende.

 

Of course this forum is a place to share information and have the right to free speech.

Althought it works like this, most posters do need solid evidence. I once again ask you to start your own thread with pictures and they will be judged fairly.

 

No need to create lies about me being dishonest. I have may have edited my post but I did then say I have been rude to you; I even apologised.

 

 

I accept your apology if it is genuine. I have not made up any lies nor attacked you. I have only responded to you . I referred to you misquoting me earlier and making some statements that were not true in your earlier post in the other thread. I did not say much of what you claimed that I did, and I clearly pointed those things out in my response.

 

As far as making up lies is concerned, you made statements on this thread about me having been "banned" and about me being some "crony", etc. . Those are completely baseless, unwarranted, and made up. I have never made anything up about you or anyone else anywhere nor will I.

 

By getting my story and knowledge out there, I am merely telling the truth for all who seek it to find . I respect that your experience with Dr. Erdogan was thankfully much different than mine . Had I not been treated so terribly and in such a disrespectful manner, I would not be posting my story at all. I am honestly amazed Dr. Erdogan treated me in the terrible way he did as this problem could have been resolved when it happened.

 

I again wish you the best and hope you can respect me in the way I have you. Other than the fact that you attacked me and have said untrue things about me,I do not have an inherent problem with you having a different opinion or review of the doctor. My reason for posting about my experience and knowledge of Dr. Erdogan is between he and I and has nothing to do with you. I gave him many chances to resolve the situation previously and have also given him the chance to respond recently.

[ZeoRanger]

 

By getting my story and knowledge out there, I am merely telling the truth for all who seek it to find . I respect that your experience with Dr. Erdogan was thankfully much different than mine . Had I not been treated so terribly and in such a disrespectful manner, I would not be posting my story at all. I am honestly amazed Dr. Erdogan treated me in the terrible way he did as this problem could have been resolved when it happened.

 

I again wish you the best and hope you can respect me in the way I have you. Other than the fact that you attacked me and have said untrue things about me,I do not have an inherent problem with you having a different opinion or review of the doctor. My reason for posting about my experience and knowledge of Dr. Erdogan is between he and I and has nothing to do with you. I gave him many chances to resolve the situation previously and have also given him the chance to respond recently.

 

So WHAT is your story??

 

I sympathise with anyone who has a bad result. But in your case I'm not even sure whether you had a bad result or it is just something trivial... Could you be anymore specific? "Erdogan was disrespectful and mistreated me" doesn't cut it. Only results matter.

 

My hunch is you flew all the way to his practice but then got turned away because you were an unsuitable FUE candidate e.g. unpredictable MPB or too curly.

 

Spill the beans already... Otherwise your "Erdogan is bad" campaign has no more merits. It's just as useless as a newbie who posts "I had an amazing result with Dr xyz" but doesn't show any photos.

[Bill - Seemiller]

paleo,

 

I'm a little late in chiming in with my thoughts but that's because I know that David was already in the process of working with you. I do happen to understand and share some of your concerns, mainly the one that 2500 grafts were used in such a small area when you have so much thinning behind it. That said, I know that Dr. Doganay did address the possibility of future hair loss and suggested that you get on hair loss medication.

 

While Dr. Doganay did provide you with enough information to make an informed opinion (informed consent), the real issue here is whether or not a patient should be able to make the decision for himself or should the doctor recognize that this isn't the best strategy and refuse to honor the patient's request and provide him with a much more conservative procedure?

 

I've seen varying opinions on this. In some cases, I would argue that as long as the patient has all the facts and thus, can provide informed consent, that he should be free to make the choice for himself. On the other hand, sometimes even when we have all the information we make foolish decisions that can bite us in the ass later down the road and it may have been better if someone with more experience and knowledge (in this case a physician) stopped us.

 

In this case, it looks like Dr. Doganay laid out the facts and provided you with the power to make the decision for yourself. Unfortunately, now it looks like you have some regrets.

 

In looking at the pictures however, I honestly don't share your concerns at only 4 months. In my opinion, everything looks to be on par and everything appears to be healing nicely. As you already know, it takes at least 12 months (and longer for FUE it seems) for the hair transplant to fully mature. Thus, while some of your concerns are related to the procedure and communication, in my opinion, the best thing to do at this point is to wait it out to see what the results look like in 12 months. Then, you can decide how to proceed.

 

That said, I do strongly recommend you consider hair loss medication such as Propecia and/or Rogaine to help combat future hair loss in the thinning areas. Do understand however, that all hair loss medication comes with the possibility of side effects and that you should fully research and understand the pros and cons of these before moving forward.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Regarding Dr. Doganay's recommendation...

 

We do strongly consider patient reviews and results when considering a surgeon for recommendation. Likewise, we also consider them in an ongoing evaluation of a surgeon's abilities and whether or not they should remain recommended. Just because a surgeon is approved for recommendation, doesn't mean they obtain tenure. Physicians recommended by this community must continue to show evidence that they regularly produce outstanding results.

 

Obviously, we have to take each situation one at a time. If we feel that a particular physician or clinic is slipping or no longer providing state of the art hair transplantation, they will no longer be recommended here. That said, I haven't seen evidence that Dr. Doganay and/or his clinic is no longer producing excellent work. Unfortunately, in this case, there is a lot that we cannot assess because there is a lot of "he said", "she said" kind of debate and since nobody here was present the day of the procedure or preparation, we can't know for sure. The only thing we can really do is analyze the work and the results itself.

 

Since the patient was provided with informed consent, I don't see anything in this case that suggests that Dr. Doganay wasn't operating in the best interest of the patient. Thus, at this point, all we can do is wait to see how the result itself turns out. Hopefully paleo will keep us posted on his progress and hopefully, in another 8 to 12 months, he will be satisfied with his result.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[TakingThePlunge]

Gentlemen,

 

Let's please keep this thread on topic. This discussion was started by Paleo to discuss his experience.

 

In reading over the continued discussion, I can agree with the majority of what's been said. However, I don't agree that anyone is placing "blame" on Paleo for anything. We have to remember first and foremost that there is absolutely NO way of knowing if this hair transplant will be a raving success, complete failure or anything in between. In fact, as has already been pointed out, the OP's statement that he is 4 months post-op is totally incorrect. According to the clinic, he had surgery on the 11th and 12th of July. That puts him at 3 months 8 days today from the completing of his procedure.

 

Yes, we do have to provide, support and a shoulder to lean on when members come with concerns whether they be real or imagined and the publishers of this community have a long history of advocating for patients, facilitating communication with physicians and helping them to attain a desirable outcome when results do not meet expectations. But, sometimes people need some tough love and I don't feel that pointing out falsehoods, misconceptions or misunderstandings or requesting proof is placing blame. We are not talking about a failed procedure in this case.

 

Again, if you take the time to review the many listed complaints. Many just don't hold water at this point in time.

 

"They may have wasted a number of my grafts and to compensate either harvested more and/or implanted less grafts. I admit, this one claim I cannot prove."

 

OP admits this cannot be substantiated. Now says we are "giving extra attention to my claim of graft wastage".

 

So let's move on to the next issue.

"However the techs were dropping equipment and cursing during the operation"

 

What does this even mean? I've seen a couple of comments about this being unprofessional. Are we meant to believe that multiple techs we dropping tools repeatedly and hurling expletives throughout the two-day procedure or did a single tech drop a tool and mutter something? How do you know it was s curse word? Was it in Turkish or English? What was the word? Everyone has a different interpretation of "cursing". For some "darn it" is unacceptable.

 

"I have uploaded my post-op donor picture and a bunch of post op donor pictures from other clinics’ 2500 graft procedures and compared to them my donor area looks overharvested and thinned out in certain points. In my opinion they either transected a lot of grafts, harvested more or didn’t care about the pattern at all."

 

A number of you guys have reviewed the pics and advised that this is likely shock loss. The only way to know for certain (as with most other aspects of the procedure) is to allow the transplant to fully mature. Good advice given on this topic by the community!

 

"When I mentioned the donor scarring they told me that after a FUE procedure one should wear its hair at least 1-1,5 cm long to cover it!! To my understanding the very reason of a FUE procedure is to be able to wear my hair 4-5mm long."

 

Here I agree with Paleo that the appeal of FUE is the potential for wearing shorter hair. While there are no guarantees that this will be the case, it is certainly common and I'm surprised that the clinic would state otherwise.

 

"Anyway, my hair is longer than 1,5 cm and the signs of the scarring is still visible. Anyone can check it and decide."

 

Of course it is. You are only 3 months and 1 week post-op and potentially have shock loss. In my personal experience, my donor appeared thin on the sides for some time after my FUE. It has filled in nicely now.

 

"Upon questioning they told me I have an average donor with 45-50 grafts/cm2, which is a guess at best as they never measured it, and it is way out of the literature which states an average donor is between 65-85 grafts/cm2."

 

This has already been explained as a miscommunication on the part of the clinic.

 

"As we mentioned in our email, we meant the density of the receiving area, which is 45-50 grafts/per cm2. Please check the "after 2 weeks" pictures showing the density of the receiving area.

 

The donor area supply was enough as it can be seen on the pictures. Otherwise, we would not accept this operation. There are some potential patients.And even if some of them insist to have operation from our clinic, we reject them since their supplies are not enough."

"It has been 4 month since the operation and my recipient area never looked good for one minute since. It is red, bumpy with red spots and minimal growth. Moreover, a number of the grafts that were implanted by the tech are misaligned."

 

Again, as of today it's been 3 months 1 week. It's not unusual for the recipient area to not look good.

 

"I have been in contact with the clinic since and all they had to tell me was everything looks fine. To be factual at one point around month 2 after repeatedly asking about folliculitis they recommended me to take antibiotics for 5 days, and when 3 month post-op I was still in bad shape and I told them I am even willing to fly back to Antalya they offered me a prp treatment, an ozone treatment, and some cream and a shampoo for free but it did not improve my situation.

 

2 weeks ago I got so fed up, I have contacted a trusted hair restoration surgeon and a dermatologist. A bacterial culture was taken from my head which came back positive. I have been prescribed antibiotics and anti-inflammatory cream and for the first time in 4 months I am seeing improvements."

 

Again, I don't understand the complaint. When we travel abroad for surgery, we do so knowing that our physician is not down the block in the event of an emergency. The first thing anyone should do if they suspect folliculitis or other serious complication is consult with a local doctor. It's very difficult to give a diagnosis online or over the phone. The clinic ultimately advised antibiotics and went above and beyond in my opinion.

 

"My only wish now is to shave my head but I am left with a low, uneven hairline with thinning all over behind it and a badly scarred / overharvested donor."

 

This single sentence alone says a lot about this thread.

 

 

1. Not even 4 months post-op with no idea what the transplant will look like and the OP already wants to just shave his head?
   
2. Several comments have stated that the hairline does not appear too low. As we all know, hairlines are typically uneven by design in order to mimic nature. If the design is not to the patient's liking when all is said and done, it can be easily augmented.
   
3. There is no photographic evidence at this time to support that the donor is either badly scarred or over-harvested.
   
   

 

"I will apologize for and withdraw any statement that anyone can disprove."

 

I addressed the above already but I must state again that this is not how things work in the US. One cannot make unsubstantiated claims or defame another in print without providing proof and our Terms of Service don't allow it.

 

Imagine if I published in a public forum that someone was involved in criminal activity or was a sexual deviant of some sort, provided no proof and then said I'll gladly retract the information if someone can disprove it. What?

 

Look, I have absolutely nothing against Paleo. I want the best of results for him as I'm sure each of you do as well. Right now no one knows how his transplant will turn out. If the result is truly subpar, I'm certain that Dr. Doganay will make it right and he will most certainly have the full support of the publishers of this community.

 

Until then, let's keep this in perspective and be both fair and realistic.

Edited October 20, 2015 by David - Moderator

[Sean]

Paleo, please archive everything and keep steady documentation from this point to the 12 month mark. Review and assess in few months. Gather multiple opinions across forums and compare and contrast.. Wish you the best.

[TakingThePlunge]

Originally Posted by paleocapa89 View Post

I have also learned never to go to a clinic which generates its revenue purely based on the number of grafts they transplant (like them) and don’t charge a fix price. This revenue model will only motivate them to scale up their operation and transplant as many grafts in as little time as possible..

I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of clinics worldwide charge on a per graft basis. Some have a sliding scale whereby the charge per graft goes down after a specific number but fixed prices are virtually unheard of.

 

It is simple economics. If you get your revenue exclusively based on the grafts you transplant you will be motivated to transplant as many grafts in as little time as possible. However if you set a flat minimal charge like fix 5000 dollars for 1000 grafts or less than you will be able to cover the fix costs of the procedure even if you only transplanted 700 grafts.

 

Here is why your idea does not work well in practice. There is 1 physician I know of that used a model like this. We advised him to change this model and he did due to the following complaint.

 

The clinic's fee structure was setup like this...

 

1. 2000-2999 grafts FUT or FUE for 3500 Euros

2. 3000-3999 grafts FUT for 4000 Euros

3. 3000-3999 grafts double day FUE for 4500 Euros

 

The patient was advised that he required 3,000 grafts FUE.

 

Now, do you feel that 1 extra graft for an additional 1,000 Euros is worthwhile? Now, if you're at the high end of the range then it may be a bargain.

[harin]

I like the spirit of the moderators in NOT hurriedly closing the thread but keeping it open to maintain the sanctity of the forum and continued ongoing civil discussion. So, thank you Moderators and Owners of this brilliant forum.

 

Quick question for the modertors and the site owner though?.

 

Does this website charge any fee from the physicians for its recommendations?, nothing wrong in it since it takes revenue to run a support forum like this, but just wondering about if the physicians are charged for being on the forum? -besides I also understand that the vetting process for the physicians or surgeons is pretty heavy and strict and only quality docs are recommended as we already know.

 

Thanks.

[TakingThePlunge]

I like the spirit of the moderators in NOT hurriedly closingthe thread but keeping it open to maintain the sanctity of the forum and continued ongoing civil discussion, thank you.

 

Quick questionfor the modertors and the site owner though?.

 

Does this website charge any fee from the physicians for its recommendations?, nothing wrong in it since it takes revenue to run a support forum like this, but just wondering about if the physicians are charged for being on the forum? -besides I also undertand that the vetting process for the physicians or surgeons is pretty heavy ans strict and only quality docs are recommended.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, recommended physicians pay a sponsorship fee that funds the enormous costs of running a community like this.

 

This is disclosed on this page,

 

How this online community is funded.

 

Those surgeons who are carefully reviewed and chosen for recommendation on this site contribute a monthly fee to co-sponsor this online community and display their before and after photos, videos and contact information.

[paleocapa89]

To Bill:

 

I'm a little late in chiming in with my thoughts but that's because I know that David was already in the process of working with you. I do happen to understand and share some of your concerns, mainly the one that 2500 grafts were used in such a small area when you have so much thinning behind it. That said, I know that Dr. Doganay did address the possibility of future hair loss and suggested that you get on hair loss medication.

 

While Dr. Doganay did provide you with enough information to make an informed opinion (informed consent), the real issue here is whether or not a patient should be able to make the decision for himself or should the doctor recognize that this isn't the best strategy and refuse to honor the patient's request and provide him with a much more conservative procedure?

 

So this is how things work around here? I state my claims, I reason, I back up everything the best way I can, then the doctors rep and the moderators hand-in-hand come in and refuse everything I claim without real evidence or reason. Did you even care to read through my previous answers?

 

No Dr Doganay did not provide me with enough information to make an informed consent. He didn't even have enough information to make an informed decision himself. He did not check for donor capacity, donor density, level of miniaturization, etc. How can you inform the patient without that information? How can you come up with a game plan without that information? You can't.

 

He took a quick look at my head drew a new hairline and quoted 2500 grafts. I would not call that an proper evaluation.Yes we talked about potential future hair loss due to my family history. No he did not inform me about my CURRENT hair loss. I visited him to get my CURRENT hair loss evaluated and check my eligibility for a hair transplant. Do you think I would have done a procedure if I was aware of my thinning? Do you think I would have wanted 2500 grafts put in the front if I was aware of it or I was told about the ongoing thinning? No I would have not.

 

Let me ask you this, but I am still waiting for an answer from the doctor himself:

 

Given that I am very young. I have aggressive hair loss. My family history shows high norwood scale hair loss. He never checked for miniaturization and donor capacity. And I told him I was not on propecia due to sides. On what basis did he think I was a good candidate for a hair transplant? What made me a good candidate? What made he think 2500 grafts to the front is a good approach?

 

 

 

I've seen varying opinions on this. In some cases, I would argue that as long as the patient has all the facts and thus, can provide informed consent, that he should be free to make the choice for himself. On the other hand, sometimes even when we have all the information we make foolish decisions that can bite us in the ass later down the road and it may have been better if someone with more experience and knowledge (in this case a physician) stopped us.

 

In this case, it looks like Dr. Doganay laid out the facts and provided you with the power to make the decision for yourself. Unfortunately, now it looks like you have some regrets.

 

No, he did not lay out the facts.

 

In looking at the pictures however, I honestly don't share your concerns at only 4 months. In my opinion, everything looks to be on par and everything appears to be healing nicely. As you already know, it takes at least 12 months (and longer for FUE it seems) for the hair transplant to fully mature. Thus, while some of your concerns are related to the procedure and communication, in my opinion, the best thing to do at this point is to wait it out to see what the results look like in 12 months. Then, you can decide how to proceed.

 

That said, I do strongly recommend you consider hair loss medication such as Propecia and/or Rogaine to help combat future hair loss in the thinning areas. Do understand however, that all hair loss medication comes with the possibility of side effects and that you should fully research and understand the pros and cons of these before moving forward.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

Edited October 20, 2015 by paleocapa89

[paleocapa89]

Let's please keep this thread on topic. This discussion was started by Paleo to discuss his experience.

 

In reading over the continued discussion, I can agree with the majority of what's been said. However, I don't agree that anyone is placing "blame" on Paleo for anything. We have to remember first and foremost that there is absolutely NO way of knowing if this hair transplant will be a raving success, complete failure or anything in between. In fact, as has already been pointed out, the OP's statement that he is 4 months post-op is totally incorrect. According to the clinic, he had surgery on the 11th and 12th of July. That puts him at 3 months 8 days today from the completing of his procedure.

 

So this is how things work around here? I state my claims, I reason, I back up everything the best way I can, then the doctors rep and the moderators hand-in-hand come in and refuse everything I claim without real evidence or reason. My statement that the procedure was 4 month ago is not totally incorrect, it only shows how you would question everything I write and believe everything the clinic writes. My operation was not in JULY but in JUNE. If you'd like I can send you photos with date tags, email conversations, airplane ticket, anything. Is this picture convincing enough?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, we do have to provide, support and a shoulder to lean on when members come with concerns whether they be real or imagined and the publishers of this community have a long history of advocating for patients, facilitating communication with physicians and helping them to attain a desirable outcome when results do not meet expectations. But, sometimes people need some tough love and I don't feel that pointing out falsehoods, misconceptions or misunderstandings or requesting proof is placing blame. We are not talking about a failed procedure in this case.

 

Again, if you take the time to review the many listed complaints. Many just don't hold water at this point in time.

 

I urge everybody to read those forums and decide themselves. And I will invite those members here as well.

 

"They may have wasted a number of my grafts and to compensate either harvested more and/or implanted less grafts. I admit, this one claim I cannot prove."

I also state that it is based on the grafts that I found laying on top of my head, the unprofessional atmosphere of the procedure and the fact that my donor looks overharvested

 

OP admits this cannot be substantiated. Now says we are "giving extra attention to my claim of graft wastage".

 

So let's move on to the next issue.

"However the techs were dropping equipment and cursing during the operation"

 

What does this even mean? I've seen a couple of comments about this being unprofessional. Are we meant to believe that multiple techs we dropping tools repeatedly and hurling expletives throughout the two-day procedure or did a single tech drop a tool and mutter something? How do you know it was s curse word? Was it in Turkish or English? What was the word? Everyone has a different interpretation of "cursing". For some "darn it" is unacceptable.

 

I don't think you need to be a linguist to be able to recognize the sound of equipment being dropped and the cursing that follows, even if it is in turkish.

 

 

"I have uploaded my post-op donor picture and a bunch of post op donor pictures from other clinics’ 2500 graft procedures and compared to them my donor area looks overharvested and thinned out in certain points. In my opinion they either transected a lot of grafts, harvested more or didn’t care about the pattern at all."

A number of you guys have reviewed the pics and advised that this is likely shock loss. The only way to know for certain (as with most other aspects of the procedure) is to allow the transplant to fully mature. Good advice given on this topic by the community!

 

I agree, that is why I will keep documenting everything, however the many ex.patients that suffered donor scarring from Dr Doganay does not give me much hope. I also state that the middle of the back of my head looks the exact same from post op day 1. I believe shock loss occurs later.

 

"When I mentioned the donor scarring they told me that after a FUE procedure one should wear its hair at least 1-1,5 cm long to cover it!! To my understanding the very reason of a FUE procedure is to be able to wear my hair 4-5mm long."

 

Here I agree with Paleo that the appeal of FUE is the potential for wearing shorter hair. While there are no guarantees that this will be the case, it is certainly common and I'm surprised that the clinic would state otherwise.

At least we agree on this one. I think is unacceptable to advertise FUE only to say later, "sorry yes, we do FUE but without the benefits of FUE" .

 

"Anyway, my hair is longer than 1,5 cm and the signs of the scarring is still visible. Anyone can check it and decide."

 

Of course it is. You are only 3 months and 1 week post-op and potentially have shock loss. In my personal experience, my donor appeared thin on the sides for some time after my FUE. It has filled in nicely now.

 

Again, it's been more than 4 month

 

 

"Upon questioning they told me I have an average donor with 45-50 grafts/cm2, which is a guess at best as they never measured it, and it is way out of the literature which states an average donor is between 65-85 grafts/cm2."

 

This has already been explained as a miscommunication on the part of the clinic.

 

Again, you believe everything that the clinic states. When I asked about donor density (knowing that they have no idea because they have never measured it) this is the answer I received:

 

"Donor Density: Average, which is 45-50/per cm2

 

Use tools: Micro motor with 0.7 mm punch attached

 

Implanter pen needle size: 0,6 mm for single graft 0.8 mm for double grafts 1 mm for triple grafts

 

Minumum 4 years experience assistance extracting performed by Fatma Can Implantation performed by Dr. Hakan His assistance name Şerife Kapson

 

Density of grafts put in the recipient.. 50 grafts implanted in per cm2

 

They have clearly differentiated their two answers regarding the donor density and the recipient density. Only after I told them that the average donor density is 65-85 cm2 they changed their answer.

 

Yes it is easy to deny it afterwards. Do you really believe it they have written recipient density two times in one answer? Once stating it is average 45-50 and later stating that it is 50cm2? Very unlikely. In my opinion simply the rep answered who had no knowledge of what real donor density is, and since they had no information about my donor density having never measure it, he simply tried to bluff something.

 

 

 

 

"As we mentioned in our email, we meant the density of the receiving area, which is 45-50 grafts/per cm2. Please check the "after 2 weeks" pictures showing the density of the receiving area.

 

The donor area supply was enough as it can be seen on the pictures. Otherwise, we would not accept this operation. There are some potential patients.And even if some of them insist to have operation from our clinic, we reject them since their supplies are not enough."

"It has been 4 month since the operation and my recipient area never looked good for one minute since. It is red, bumpy with red spots and minimal growth. Moreover, a number of the grafts that were implanted by the tech are misaligned."

 

Again, as of today it's been 3 months 1 week. It's not unusual for the recipient area to not look good.

Again, it's been more than 4 month

 

 

 

"I have been in contact with the clinic since and all they had to tell me was everything looks fine. To be factual at one point around month 2 after repeatedly asking about folliculitis they recommended me to take antibiotics for 5 days, and when 3 month post-op I was still in bad shape and I told them I am even willing to fly back to Antalya they offered me a prp treatment, an ozone treatment, and some cream and a shampoo for free but it did not improve my situation.

 

2 weeks ago I got so fed up, I have contacted a trusted hair restoration surgeon and a dermatologist. A bacterial culture was taken from my head which came back positive. I have been prescribed antibiotics and anti-inflammatory cream and for the first time in 4 months I am seeing improvements."

 

Again, I don't understand the complaint. When we travel abroad for surgery, we do so knowing that our physician is not down the block in the event of an emergency. The first thing anyone should do if they suspect folliculitis or other serious complication is consult with a local doctor. It's very difficult to give a diagnosis online or over the phone. The clinic ultimately advised antibiotics and went above and beyond in my opinion.

 

Again, you are simply protecting the clinic. I have sent them hundreds of HD pictures, I have asked them many times about folliculitis only to be turned down every time. Yes, at one point they advised me antibiotics which did not do much, but they told me everything was fine. I even flew back to them to a personal check up, and still they did not do anything to properly diagnose me.

 

Do you think this is normal for a recipient?

 

 

"My only wish now is to shave my head but I am left with a low, uneven hairline with thinning all over behind it and a badly scarred / overharvested donor."

 

This single sentence alone says a lot about this thread.

 

Given that I have now found out that I am going to bald in a norwood 5-6 pattern pretty soon, and don't have nearly enough donor to compensate for it and now I also have a low hairline (compared to the future pattern of hairloss and a proper game plan) yes, I think shaving my head is the only way out. Do you have a better idea?

 

 

1. Not even 4 months post-op with no idea what the transplant will look like and the OP already wants to just shave his head?
   

 
Again, more than 4
 
 

Several comments have stated that the hairline does not appear too low. As we all know, hairlines are typically uneven by design in order to mimic nature. If the design is not to the patient's liking when all is said and done, it can be easily augmented.
There is no photographic evidence at this time to support that the donor is either badly scarred or over-harvested.

 
the design was uneven due to negligence not to mimic nature, that is why after the procedure when I pointed it out the tech started to panic and pull out grafts.
 
here is a photographic evidence of the back of my head with reasonably long hair
 

 
 

"I will apologize for and withdraw any statement that anyone can disprove."

 

I addressed the above already but I must state again that this is not how things work in the US. One cannot make unsubstantiated claims or defame another in print without providing proof and our Terms of Service don't allow it.

To mee, it seems I am the only one providing hard evidence and trying my best to back up everything.

 

 

Imagine if I published in a public forum that someone was involved in criminal activity or was a sexual deviant of some sort, provided no proof and then said I'll gladly retract the information if someone can disprove it. What?

 

Look, I have absolutely nothing against Paleo. I want the best of results for him as I'm sure each of you do as well. Right now no one knows how his transplant will turn out. If the result is truly subpar, I'm certain that Dr. Doganay will make it right and he will most certainly have the full support of the publishers of this community.

 

Until then, let's keep this in perspective and be both fair and realistic.

Edited October 20, 2015 by paleocapa89

[Bill - Seemiller]

Paleo,

 

I have not had a chance to read everything you wrote in your last responses however, I really think we need to clarify the date of your procedure and how many months postop you are. The clinic said that the date of your procedure was around July 12. That would make August 12, one month. September 12, two months. And October 12, three months. Today is October 20. That would make today three months and eight days from the date of your procedure. So unless the clinic stated the date of your procedure incorrectly, I don't know where you are getting four months from.

 

Can you please clarify this?

 

Bill

[TakingThePlunge]

Paleo,

 

Did you or did you not have surgery on the 11th and 12th of July?

[paleocapa89]

please at least read what I have written. Questioning everything I write and believing everything that the clinic writes does make me wonder whether I can expect impartiality from you. I had the procedure in JUNE 11-12.

 

And just to be clear: it was not a two day procedure, it was in the afternoon of June 11 and in the morning of June 12 while other procedures were also taking place on those same days.

Edited October 20, 2015 by paleocapa89

[paleocapa89]

Originally Posted by paleocapa89 View Post

I have also learned never to go to a clinic which generates its revenue purely based on the number of grafts they transplant (like them) and don’t charge a fix price. This revenue model will only motivate them to scale up their operation and transplant as many grafts in as little time as possible..

I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of clinics worldwide charge on a per graft basis. Some have a sliding scale whereby the charge per graft goes down after a specific number but fixed prices are virtually unheard of.

 

It is simple economics. If you get your revenue exclusively based on the grafts you transplant you will be motivated to transplant as many grafts in as little time as possible. However if you set a flat minimal charge like fix 5000 dollars for 1000 grafts or less than you will be able to cover the fix costs of the procedure even if you only transplanted 700 grafts.

Here is why your idea does not work well in practice. There is 1 physician I know of that used a model like this. We advised him to change this model and he did due to the following complaint.

 

The clinic's fee structure was setup like this...

 

1. 2000-2999 grafts FUT or FUE for 3500 Euros

2. 3000-3999 grafts FUT for 4000 Euros

3. 3000-3999 grafts double day FUE for 4500 Euros

 

The patient was advised that he required 3,000 grafts FUE.

 

Now, do you feel that 1 extra graft for an additional 1,000 Euros is worthwhile? Now, if you're at the high end of the range then it may be a bargain.

__________________

 

 

Your argument is valid, however not really contradicting my thoughts. I was saying a clinic that gets its revenue purely based on the number of grafts it transplants will be motivated to upscale and transplant as many grafts in as little time as possible.

 

Let's assume a day of operation cost 2000$ for a hypothetical clinic (salaries, rent of operating room equipment etc). If this clinic gets its revenue purely based on graft number and the price of graft is 2$ then unless the clinic transplants 1000 or more grafts in a day it will not earn profit but make a loss. Would this clinic offer the patient an operation of 700 grafts? No it would not because then it would make a loss of 600$ on the patient.

 

Now if you introduce a flat fixed type of revenue let's call it "price of operation" and set it 2000$ and set a price for each grafts as well on top of it like 1$/graft then you will make profit regardless of the number of transplanted grafts because the fix cost of the operation will be covered by the flat "price of operation" revenue and you will not need to upscale your operation, or hurry with the procedures to jam as many transplanted grafts in a day as you can, since you will be making profit with each transplanted graft.

Edited October 20, 2015 by paleocapa89

[Bill - Seemiller]

Paleo,

 

OK well there seems to be some confusion about the date of surgery. Perhaps the clinic got it wrong or typed it incorrectly.. That said, I've already stated in my last couple of posts, that I do not believe things look overly unusual for only four months after surgery.

 

I also think that Dave did a good job responding to each of your concerns after my initial reply on this topic.

 

I also don't understand that if you did not feel that you were given enough information why you proceeded with surgery in the first place. I'm not trying to point the finger at or blame you as I do believe it is a physician's job to help educate the patient prior to surgery. However, each patient does need to take responsibility for his work her own decisions which means educating themselves prior to undergoing a surgical procedure.

 

At what point did you learn that you were a Norwood 5A or 6 pattern and that you would require a great number of grafts moving forward? It seems like you have those concerns now after surgery and if you knew this prior to surgery, you may not have made this decision? But why did you do the research to obtain this information after you've already had hair transplant surgery and not before?

 

I guess at this point, I'm not sure what you want this community to do for you. We have provided a venue for you to vent your concerns and share your experience. We have also heard the clinic's side of the story and many valuable contributions were made by members of this community as well.

 

So other than waiting it out to see how your donor and recipient areas will heal and for your hair to grow, what is it you are hoping to accomplish at this point?

 

In my opinion, the best thing you can do it this point is wait things out and see how you heal and grow over the next 8 to 12 months. Then you can determine what to do next if anything. You may also want to consider nonsurgical treatments to help prevent further hair loss behind the transplant an area.

 

Best,

 

Bill

[Xkos48]

First, I would like to thank Dr. Doganay for being proactive in responding to paleo's statements and concerns.

 

I would also like to address some of these issues.

 

Paleo,

 

As a hair transplant patient with 3 surgeries under my belt (both strip and FUE), the first of which yielded less than expected growth, I understand the compulsion to second-guess your decision, your physician's advice and the work itself. When I was in that position, I received some very good advice from this community and that was to wait until the results grew in before assessing the quality of the work. That was good advice and it's the best advice you'll get at this early stage.

 

I have reviewed your photos and, from what I can tell, the hairline looks appropriate for the number of grafts and in the design. I cannot honestly evaluate the donor area. Perhaps someone else may be able to offer their input.

 

While I believe you are sincere in sharing your experience, I think your fears and concerns are very premature and I have to take issue with some of your claims.

 

 

 

At only 4 months this is pretty standard. Growth should be minimal at this point. Yes, you will hear about some patients who heal quickly and look great in a month or two. That was never my personal experience. With my first two transplants I remained quite red for many weeks.

 

Folliculitis is not common but can happen. For patients that travel abroad for surgery, getting the diagnosis can be tough. Unfortunately, consulting with a local physician is a must if you suspect complications.

 

 

 

Our community is not affiliated with the IAHRS and our Terms of Service prohibit linking to any of their resources. However, Dr. Doganay is recommended by our community and you can view his profile here.

 

His recommendation profile clearly states the following:

 

"Dr. Doganay's experienced technicians carefully extract follicular units and store them in sterilized cabs in the refrigerator before placement. Dr. Doganay prefers to place grafts in the crucial hairline areas himself while he gets help from experienced technicians for the remaining ones and place the grafts together."

 

 

 

I don't think it's fair to make such a statement when there is no proof that this occurred.

 

 

 

There are a couple of statements here that I find concerning. First, you state that the techs have "minimal experience". How do you know this? Did you ask them how long they have been in the field or how many procedures they have done?

 

The second is that you say you "have reason to believe" that Dr. Doganay is performing up to 4 procedures per day at two locations and that AHD Clinic is a "hair mill". Again, these statements are very disparaging and my feeling is that they should not be allowed to remain public unless you can supply substantial evidence to support them.

 

Dr. Doganay has maintained that he performs 1 and sometimes 2 procedures daily at a single location and this is also stated in his profile.

 

 

 

This is absolutely false. A number of top docs use motorized punches and/or implanter pens with great success. My FUE was performed using the Powered SAFE Scribe and I couldn't be happier with the results.

 

 

 

I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of clinics worldwide charge on a per graft basis. Some have a sliding scale whereby the charge per graft goes down after a specific number but fixed prices are virtually unheard of.

 

 

 

With all due respect, typically it's the accuser that must provide the proof and you've made a number of unsubstantiated accusations while providing surgical photos that appear perfectly acceptable at this stage.

 

Given your age, degree of hair loss and refusal to use medical hair loss treatments, I agree that hair transplant surgery may not have been the best decision at this time but I would not call your case unusual by any means.

 

Based on Dr. Doganay's response, it seems that the clinic was realistic and even conservative in their graft estimate and it seems there is an email trail that may shed more light on the case.

 

However, I don't see the value in further debating your case until your hair transplant has fully matured in 8 more months. If, at that time, your results are truly sub-par I'm certain that Dr. Doganay will work with you to ensure your satisfaction.

 

I do wish you the very best of luck and I hope that you ultimately obtain the result that you hope for.

 

Just to correct you david,dr.hakan did my 2 proc?dures in different places(first at aspendos,and the second at the downtown hospital).