FUT is more popular than FUE

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Dr. Feller,

 

Taking a piece of his video and using it is a low blow. I don't think this was wise of you to do.

 

What is so low blow about it? It's not out of context, it directly refutes the claims he made. And let's not forget, incredibly, he offered that video to contradict my claims. He put it into the debate unsolicited, not I. He needs to stand by it as Bill wrote.

[lileli]

What is so low blow about it? It's not out of context, it directly refutes the claims he made. And let's not forget, incredibly, he offered that video to contradict my claims. He put it into the debate unsolicited, not I. He needs to stand by it as Bill wrote.

 

 

It's just not good form. I would say the same if Dr. Bhatti made a video of type footage and said your shaky hand was a problem. This doesn't advance the conversation in a positive manner.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

It's just not good form. I would say the same if Dr. Bhatti made a video of type footage and said your shaky hand was a problem. This doesn't advance the conversation in a positive manner.

 

Now, what YOU just wrote WAS a low blow. Obviously I was using a motorized tool which vibrated. Not my hand. But Dr. Bhatti unprofessionally and disingenuously made that up and posted it. He made up a lie, I did not.

 

Dr. Bhatti claimed that that I offered no evidence to support my claims. No proof. Well there is the proof. But apparently the truth holds no appeal or interest for you. You are partisan to the end.

[Melvin- Admin]

Are you kidding?! This video strikes at the very heart of the debate. And you stoop to calling it slanderous and classless in an effort to discredit it? Where were you and your moral outrage when Swooping dug up posts of mine from 11 years ago and laughably posted them as a fallacious "gotcha". After you look up the word "slander," perhaps you should look up the word "hypocrisy".

 

Facts are stubborn things, aren't they? This has nothing to do with opinion.

 

Dr. Bhatti made a factual assertion that the grafts he pulls are not subject to traction forces during extraction-because, he says, they don't exist. His own video, without one word from me, is the most elegant proof one could offer refuting his implausible claim; little else could be classier or more persuasive.

 

Remember, he offered his video as evidence in the debate he began for the explicit purpose of convincing me, and you, that his procedure was without any of the detrimental forces I claim obviously exist.

 

Of course, that video says otherwise.

 

Now that you have baselessly attacked the messenger, again, how about getting back to the message: Look at his video and ask yourself, is dr bhatti's claim that his FUE procedure does not contain traction forces true or false? Does this video indeed constitute proof of my assertions? Is it not a fact that there is a tremendous amount of traction observable?

 

We await Dr. Bhatti's direct response.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKfaYG5BRhs

 

Don't you think this is going too far? Things have been said between both of you, but if this continues to escalate nothing good will come of it. The results are unknown at this point, if the results come out to be good wouldn't that prove that the forces could be overcome? But regardless I don't like to see things like this happening, although I disagree with a lot of things you say, I don't condone attacking you personally, I respect your opinion as a fellow hairloss sufferer, but i think this situation is best left to an agreement to disagree, this doesn't make you look good honestly, it deters from the message you're trying to convey, because it's obvious there is some form of vindication in posting up this video. I'm not saying Dr. Bhatti hasn't said things about you, what I'm saying is that it's in everybody best interest to stop this from escalating.

[newbie33]

 

I do not comment on results of specific patients of specific doctors unless they present them during discussion/debate specifically to be critiqued by others like Dr. Bhatti has with his video. It is far better, more educational, and objective to discuss the actual techniques used, rather than subjectively look at photos of results.

 

Thanks again for the answer, Dr Feller.

 

On the point above, I didn't name any doctors or cite specific results for the very reason that it's unusual for doctors to comment on each other. But the point I was getting at is that your previous assertions about FUE yield and thickness/naturalness of hairlines compared to FUE - that statement is based not just on your own results, but on the results you've seen in general, including from the 'best' FUE doctors?

 

It's implicit in your statement, but I think it's important clarify that it is the case.

[lileli]

Now, what YOU just wrote WAS a low blow. Obviously I was using a motorized tool which vibrated. Not my hand. But Dr. Bhatti unprofessionally and disingenuously made that up and posted it. He made up a lie, I did not.

 

Dr. Bhatti claimed that that I offered no evidence to support my claims. No proof. Well there is the proof. But apparently the truth holds no appeal or interest for you. You are partisan to the end.

 

Dr.Feller I have defended you on this forum. I'm disappointed you have decided to attack me. I thank you for providing information but this is now a horrible train wreck.

[lileli]

Now, what YOU just wrote WAS a low blow. Obviously I was using a motorized tool which vibrated. Not my hand. But Dr. Bhatti unprofessionally and disingenuously made that up and posted it. He made up a lie, I did not.

 

Dr. Bhatti claimed that that I offered no evidence to support my claims. No proof. Well there is the proof. But apparently the truth holds no appeal or interest for you. You are partisan to the end.

 

If you read my statement correctly, you would see that I was saying I would defend you if he did do that! You have completely disregard that point. I used that as an example of what Dr.Bhatti could do to you.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Thanks again for the answer, Dr Feller.

 

On the point above, I didn't name any doctors or cite specific results for the very reason that it's unusual for doctors to comment on each other. But the point I was getting at is that your previous assertions about FUE yield and thickness/naturalness of hairlines compared to FUE - that statement is based not just on your own results, but on the results you've seen in general, including from the 'best' FUE doctors?

 

It's implicit in your statement, but I think it's important clarify that it is the case.

 

I don't know who the "best" FUE doctors are, or who you consider them to be. While I most certainly came to my conclusion based on observation of results, this method is too subjective and could not be the basis of my position on FUE. Rather, I base it on the technique itself which is objective and free of personalities, ego, bias, money, reputation, and other subjective issues.

 

By focusing on the technique itself, I know with certainty that the grafts are subjected to much more trauma when compared to an FUT. The common sense end result is a potentially lower growth yield. The rules are the same for FUT by the way. The more the graft is mishandled, the less potential for growth. This is hair transplant gospel.

 

In this thread, however, Dr. Bhatti claimed rather loudly that the detrimental forces I described simply don't exit. He excoriated me for not having evidence of this nor proof. Is not the clip of his very own video the evidence and proof he claims does not exist at least with respect to traction force?

[HairJo]

The video does show traction how can anybody disagree with that

[lileli]

I don't know who the "best" FUE doctors are, or who you consider them to be. While I most certainly came to my conclusion based on observation of results, this method is too subjective and could not be the basis of my position on FUE. Rather, I base it on the technique itself which is objective and free of personalities, ego, bias, money, reputation, and other subjective issues.

 

By focusing on the technique itself, I know with certainty that the grafts are subjected to much more trauma when compared to an FUT. The common sense end result is a potentially lower growth yield. The rules are the same for FUT by the way. The more the graft is mishandled, the less potential for growth. This is hair transplant gospel.

 

In this thread, however, Dr. Bhatti claimed rather loudly that the detrimental forces I described simply don't exit. He excoriated me for not having evidence of this nor proof. Is not the clip of his very own video the evidence and proof he claims does not exist at least with respect to traction force?

 

Dr. Bhatti talked about the three forces.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

If you read my statement correctly, you would see that I was saying I would defend you if he did do that! You have completely disregard that point. I used that as an example of what Dr.Bhatti could do to you.

 

But he did do that Lileli, in a post right after I put up my video. Does it really make a difference that he didn't bother to repost my video in his thread with his snide comment? I don't recall you defending me. If you did, I apologize but I couldn't find your post coming to my defense after he made that clearly disingenuous accusation.

 

But I ask you, after viewing the video no matter what you think of me, is there or is there not proof and evidence of traction ?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Dr. Bhatti talked about the three forces.

 

Yes he did.

 

First he said they existed but that they were overcome. Then he changed it to they didn't exist and that I had offered no evidence or proof and that it was my unverifiable opinion.

 

Well, that video is proof of traction force in the flesh if nothing else.

 

Wouldn't you agree, Lileli?

[HairJo]

It seems like the forces are addressed by the doctor but the doctor seems like it makes no difference to the grafts how much forces affect them . I do believe all of these forces absolutely damage the grafts . To me they are proud that they finish a big case so quickly but I always believe haste makes waste I want my doctor to take his time with my case and choose which procedure will be the best for me . Listen to experienced doctors they know best sometimes what you're set on doing isn't really going to give us the look you want but some other procedure would, I personally would keep an open mind and take the advise of my doctor

[lileli]

The forces exist. The question is how do the forces affect graft survival in experienced hands. Dr. Feller, I accept your apology and again I have learned a lot from this thread. However, I still request that you take down that video unless you received permission to use their materiel

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Don't you think this is going too far? Things have been said between both of you, but if this continues to escalate nothing good will come of it. The results are unknown at this point, if the results come out to be good wouldn't that prove that the forces could be overcome? But regardless I don't like to see things like this happening, although I disagree with a lot of things you say, I don't condone attacking you personally, I respect your opinion as a fellow hairloss sufferer, but i think this situation is best left to an agreement to disagree, this doesn't make you look good honestly, it deters from the message you're trying to convey, because it's obvious there is some form of vindication in posting up this video. I'm not saying Dr. Bhatti hasn't said things about you, what I'm saying is that it's in everybody best interest to stop this from escalating.

 

 

How can we agree to disagree? The evidence is right in that video that Dr. Bhatti does not have grounds to disagree. What he said does not exist, exists. What he said I had no evidence of nor proof for is right there in full color.

 

Again, how is this going "too far"? Dr. Bhatti posted this video in this debate unsolicited in an effort to counter my claims. The fact that it countered his own claims and supported mine is about as relevant and "in bounds" as you can get in any debate. Shouldn't it be HE who you are addressing now to explain himself?

 

The issue isn't this particular patient, but the TECHNIQUE itself. Don't you see, HTsoon, that the traction force undeniably exists and therefore represents the very evidence and proof that Dr. Bhatti claims doesn't exist?

 

For the forces to have been overcome, in this case, Dr. Bhatti would have had to employ either a novel technique or instrumentation. He did neither. What he is doing is hoping that the patient's physiology is very tolerant and tough and could endure the excessive trauma his FUE technique subjected it to. This is not "overcoming" this is gambling with someone else body. Maybe the patient will grow well, maybe he won't. But no matter which, he would have been in a better position had he had an FUT that did not subject the grafts to that completely unnecessary trauma. Isn't that obvious?

 

The message I am trying to convey is that FUE causes more trauma to the graft compared to FUT, and therefore lower growth yields logically follow. Dr. Bhatti did not like that message and tried to discredit not just my observations, but me personally. He challenged me to a debate and I accepted. And here we are.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

The forces exist. The question is how do the forces affect graft survival in experienced hands. Dr. Feller, I accept your apology and again I have learned a lot from this thread. However, I still request that you take down that video unless you received permission to use their materiel

 

I'm glad you now see and believe the forces exist. Now it's time to see if Dr. Bhatti now sees that as well.

 

With respect to the video content, normally, I'd agree with you. But that video was submitted specifically for this debate. Surely he didn't post it such that only he could comment on it to my exclusion. What kind of debate would that be? Had it existed outside of this debate I would not have used it. If it had not been posted in this debate by its owner I would not have used it. But it was posted here to be viewed and commented upon, just as the other photos Dr. Bhatti posted on here. If Dr. Bhatti asked that it be taken down, what does that say about his belief in his position and his technique? As bill said, he needs to stand behind his video and perhaps he will do that.

[mav23100gunther]

I'm glad you now see and believe the forces exist. Now it's time to see if Dr. Bhatti now sees that as well.

 

With respect to the video content, normally, I'd agree with you. But that video was submitted specifically for this debate. Surely he didn't post it such that only he could comment on it to my exclusion. What kind of debate would that be? Had it existed outside of this debate I would not have used it. If it had not been posted in this debate by its owner I would not have used it. But it was posted here to be viewed and commented upon, just as the other photos Dr. Bhatti posted on here. If Dr. Bhatti asked that it be taken down, what does that say about his belief in his position and his technique? As bill said, he needs to stand behind his video and perhaps he will do that.

 

Dr Feller, I must be completely honest. When I first saw the original video, I was horrified. That immediately confirmed to me that no way in hell would I let Dr Bhatti do that to my precious grafts. Unless someone is blind, to the informed average Joe who knows a little about hair transplants, it's gotta be obvious that those grafts are at risk being handled like that. I completely understand that it may in fact mean nothing and that each and every one of those grafts will survive and grow, but c'mon these are hairs being removed from your body and then being manually rellocated. It's gotta be obvious that it surely can't work if grafts don't get handled with the utmost care. Like I said before, I only have a limited amount of precious donar grafts, and I may need every single one of them. If FUSS provides the less risk and is so tried and tested, that video definitely doesn't help get anyone comfort. Just watch that video and think logically. I also respect the reason that Dr Bhatti gave to want to edit that video, but I am not stupid, and will not be made a fool of - I just don't appriciate and like the blurring out part. I actually appriciate the manner in which Dr Feller is now actually using that video to highlight his point. To be honest, it's making me even better informed. Now, was it right what he just did, I don't know, and if I was Dr Bhatti I think I would be pretty ticked off. Not sure what the rules are on taking a public video and doing that with it.

Edited September 6, 2015 by mav23100gunther

[mav23100gunther]

The video does show traction how can anybody disagree with that

 

Completely agree. I think the FUT haters are just so blinded that they are convincing themselves otherwise. It's like when you hook up with an ugly girl and convince yourself that she is hot. Notice how they jump on Dr Feller for comments he made 10 freakin years ago and latch on to a conspiracy theory regarding Dr Blake, mFUe, and the connection to this thread which I still don't see what's the big deal about. Yet when Dr Bhatti tried to censor the video and then (in my opinion) got caught out in a "misunderstanding" by Bill releasing a pretty telling e-mail trail where Dr BHATTI actually disregards the advice given to him - not much of word from anyone, and then others stating let's just move on with he debate. The hypocrisy of some of these folks is unbelievable. Oh, and then at one point I got accused of changing positions just because I was trying to be somewhat objective - like that was the biggest crime in the world.

[Sethticles]

I've watched the video a few more times the 20 sec section (from 15minute video) where Feller has decided to focus on, to me looks like under the chin harvesting BHT, I have read that skin more elastic and needs to made more taut and BHT grafts are wider and stronger than harvesting from the regular donor area. So if it is in fact harvesting from the chin, BHT, Feller cannot comment because he himself does not practice this method. Just as test pinch under your own chin and the pinch your donor area, completely different look and feel which also looks like the video section.

[darlinglocks]

Dr Feller's technique can be contrasted with Dr Bhatti's minimally invasive technique shown even in the revised video besides his original video which are on this thread-

FUE scoring

 

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by darlinglocks

[hairshopeing]

Dr feller

Stop saying people have said things they haven't, atop trying to twist what people have said to suit yourself! You really are making yourself look very unprofessional and to be quite frank not a vindictive person.

You are gonstsntly twisting people stamens then come out with see I win type attitude when in fact what have said is complete and utter rubbish! And you don't win, and only you think you win that argument or point when in fact everyone else thinks the opposite! You have had examples of your patients having poor outcomes then going to a different Dr and being happy with their result and you have the audacity to claim that the pictures they show are actually your work prior to their latest procedure? It's madness, the guy wasn't happy with your work, went somewhere else,was happy, showed his results and you claimed it was your work he was showing! You tried to manipulate what he said about your yield,the terms he used regarding growth percentages you tried to make out ge had said higher % growth from 1 of the 2 procedures, it's ridiculous!

 

You have started to change what you originally said about fue; which is good, now your saying just not for mega sessions and yield usually won't be quite as good, nothing like your original posts in this thread!!

 

But let's put the facts strait

 

Dr bhatti HAS NOT SAID the 3 forces don't exist as far as I have read, which is all of this! HE HAS SAID they are not detrimental to his results along with other high achieving fue Dr's, why choose again to word it wrongly that he has said things that he hasn't!

 

You do this with everyone and everything!!

 

It's a shame because you have made some great points for food for thought, you have done yourself no favours with this thread and posting that video the way you have done gas made me come out with the above! I would find it hard to believe anyone who has taken time to follow this thread would proceed with any sort of transplant with you, fue or fut! I can imagine the manner in which you would act if that patient was unhappy, you d be saying he said this, and you said that,and it is a success because of xyz!!!

 

People buy people and I have to say if you were giving away hair transplants I'd walk on by!!

[hairshopeing]

I apologise for my appalling grammes yet again! I'm on a phone and have fat thumbs!

 

Before you think Dr feller I am just siding with Dr bhatti, I am not!

I don't honk he should have edited the video, period and I did think the way the grafts were scooped up was wrong from what iv seen and had done, if that is how a mega session is performed I will not ever partake in one of those!

My fue was done at a fast pace with regards to scoring the grafts bur I could see in a mirror how they were handled and they were gently placed on a cloth material individually! So I'm not siding with Dr bhatti but seriously don't make it personal between the 2 of you! The thread has been educational, keep it that way!

[FUE2014]

Is it bht or scalp hair that is captured in this Bhatti vid?

[newbie33]

Nobody wants their stamens twisted ;-)

[Melvin- Admin]

Dr Feller's technique can be contrasted with Dr Bhatti's minimally invasive technique shown even in the revised video besides his original video which are on this thread-

FUE scoring

 

 

Is this Dr. Bhatti? Why is it a bit shakey?