Dr. Wong 7111 Grafts/ 2 Sessions/FUT/ 27 and 15 Months Post Op

[1966kph]

All that said I must admit the crown looks excellent on that I think we would all agree?

Or not.

Have a good weekend all

[mahhong]

As far as I can remember, I never suggested they were deliberately hiding something. I'm suggesting that the presentation is utterly 2nd rate.

 

If a patient is going to come to the surgery for post op pics, one would imagine the doctor would want to comb the hair into a style that showed off the hairline, placement, density etc not take photos of a crossface comb over held together by hairspray.

 

You need to remember doctors have no say over if or how a patient is presented - the wishes of the patient are key. Many patients will not allow photos of them to be made public, some will want their faces hidden. When patients return for followup they may have styled their hair and be reticent about having it brushed or combed - perhaps this man had a busy day ahead of him, perhaps he had another appointment or meeting. Doctors cannot demand or force a patient to be presented in any way.

 

The bottom line is H&W have an excellent reputation and an absolutely huge archive of photos, videos and interviews of patients old and young who have had all manner of small or large HTs. This presentation may not be the most thorough we've ever seen but to insinuate it's second rate is wrong. The photos are clear, consistent, well lit and from pretty much every major angle. You don't actually know any of the circumstances of the patient; whether they were unable or unwilling to have their hair combed, whether they are or aren't wearing hairspray etc. but in light of the fantastic reputation of the surgeons and very acceptable presentation, not to mention the clearly documented improvement, I think you've been a bit harsh really. You've made a great many assumptions and you haven't really put the result into the large context of this surgeon's body of work.

[Squatch]

+1 Looks really good to me. They gave several angles. I don't care what hairstyle the guy has. There is no way he will have the density of his donor area. It only matters how well he can hide the the scalp in my opinion. Takes a lot of guts to present your face. 95% don't for whatever reason. It is up to the patient also what he wants presented. I often wonder why stones are cast by people that don't offer anything themselves. It is obvious he is happy with his outcome if he is showing it all. My.02 cents.

[Cryingoutloud]

You need to remember doctors have no say over if or how a patient is presented - the wishes of the patient are key. Many patients will not allow photos of them to be made public, some will want their faces hidden. When patients return for followup they may have styled their hair and be reticent about having it brushed or combed - perhaps this man had a busy day ahead of him, perhaps he had another appointment or meeting. Doctors cannot demand or force a patient to be presented in any way.

 

The bottom line is H&W have an excellent reputation and an absolutely huge archive of photos, videos and interviews of patients old and young who have had all manner of small or large HTs. This presentation may not be the most thorough we've ever seen but to insinuate it's second rate is wrong. The photos are clear, consistent, well lit and from pretty much every major angle. You don't actually know any of the circumstances of the patient; whether they were unable or unwilling to have their hair combed, whether they are or aren't wearing hairspray etc. but in light of the fantastic reputation of the surgeons and very acceptable presentation, not to mention the clearly documented improvement, I think you've been a bit harsh really. You've made a great many assumptions and you haven't really put the result into the large context of this surgeon's body of work.

 

I don't understand why you're being deliberately obstinate. You know full well that I'm not criticizing the clarity, lighting or angles.

 

My comments have been based entirely on what I can SEE or rather, what I can't. The patient's hairstyle IN THE PHOTOS does not lend itself to showcasing the result and the surgery knew it. You think they couldn't have supplied the guy with a tin of hairspray to reproduce his hairstyle after the comb through? Don't be so na?ve.

 

How he chooses to wear his hair outside the surgery is his business but - in these photos which are obviously intended to make the case for using this surgery - I can't see the hairline - neither can you.

 

 

If I was the patient, I would WANT to show my hairline - not a comb-forward and drag-across-the-face ski-slope, crispy hairstyle that invites the kind of doubt this does.

 

Is it better than when he started out?

 

Of course it is but is it "7,000+ grafts-by-a-top-surgeon" better?

 

Hell no

 

If they put up shots of the hairline accompanied by a comb-through video, my opinions can be altered but, until then, this is very much a 2nd rate result and presentation from H&W

[mahhong]

I don't understand why you're being deliberately obstinate. You know full well that I'm not criticizing the clarity, lighting or angles.

 

My comments have been based entirely on what I can SEE or rather, what I can't. The patient's hairstyle IN THE PHOTOS does not lend itself to showcasing the result and the surgery knew it. You think they couldn't have supplied the guy with a tin of hairspray to reproduce his hairstyle after the comb through? Don't be so na?ve.

 

How he chooses to wear his hair outside the surgery is his business but - in these photos which are obviously intended to make the case for using this surgery - I can't see the hairline - neither can you.

 

 

If I was the patient, I would WANT to show my hairline - not a comb-forward and drag-across-the-face ski-slope, crispy hairstyle that invites the kind of doubt this does.

 

Is it better than when he started out?

 

Of course it is but is it "7,000+ grafts-by-a-top-surgeon" better?

 

Hell no

 

If they put up shots of the hairline accompanied by a comb-through video, my opinions can be altered but, until then, this is very much a 2nd rate result and presentation from H&W

 

You can see the hairline pretty well in the documentation from the first procedure - the work is fine. I cannot see that a second procedure would have done anything to diminish that.

 

If you think you cannot see from this set of photographs that this is a very good result for 7,000 grafts then you're mistaken. This is a solid result, the hairline isn't going to look bad if the wind catches it, that's obvious.

 

As I say, I agree with you on the very basic principle that it would have been nice to see a video, because I'm always happy to see more documentation and I like detail. However in your initial post you basically suggested the result was sub-par and you'd hate to have to style your hair to cover it up. It's pretty clear to me that's an accusation of both sub-par work and an attempt to cover up that sub-par work through some elaborate hairstyling. Personally, for a surgery with H&W's reputation, who have provided one of the best, most consistent and most detailed archives of hair restoration success stories in the world, I feel that's a little harsh and makes an awful lot of assumptions for which there is very little evidence.

 

I'm simply contending it's unfair. Saying, "I'd love to see a video" or, "would be good to see the hairline" would be one thing, but I would suggest your initial comment was more of an accusation that the result is some kind of coverup that shouldn't fill anybody with confidence.

 

The photos do not "scream" comb over - the last 3 or 4 photos make that abundantly clear because if the density was too low you would get something of a 'see through' effect pretty easily. You'll see in HTs with lower graft numbers this happens a lot - in fact in the patient's first HT photos you can see what I'm talking about - a sort of shingling, see-through at the very edges of the top down shots where the density and length are not quite optimal (in that case it's clearly because it's a first HT and the density probably isn't that high).

 

I guess I feel that we as regular forum members have a job to be balanced but honest in the same way surgeons do. When surgeons post up sub-optimal, blurry, inconsistent or underwhelming photos (which rarely happens on here) I understand that they're held to account or more is demanded. Similarly everybody has a right to an opinion and free speech and that's obviously cool with me and everybody else no doubt. But I'd hate for somebody to come on here for the first time and see this and somehow get a sense it's poor documentation or, worse still, hiding something. It's fine - as I say, not the absolute best, not even close to being the absolute worst documentation. H&W have a great reputation, a goldmine of great, documented results and this one would appear to be another success story. I concur it would be great to see a little more but I think there are ways of asking for that without insinuating, because it isn't up to your standards, it's not good enough.

[Shampoo]

Cryingoutloud do you not understand that most hair transplant surgeries are about "the illusion of density"?

 

Why should patients and/or clinics show a patient in the worst possible scenario or in a way they would never wear their hair styled?

 

Of course the photos are intended to "make the case for surgery" and show how well the illusion can be pulled off. Most of us realize even after surgery that we still don't have "enough" hair, but after surgery we know we now have enough to work with to make the illusion of density a reality.

 

You claim you would want to show your hairline, but you have no idea what people of different ages and different hair loss goals are. This guy looks a lot better and I am pretty sure he is thrilled with the difference of before and after.

 

In my case I would never show photos that make me look the worst, I will show photos that are examples of how well I can pull of the illusion of density. Isn't that what this is all about for most guys except the very young patients in their twenties?

 

I still have thin areas, but after my surgery I now have enough hair to "down-play" and better hide those weak areas. Do you really think I am going to post photos of those weak areas combed or styled that expose those areas in the worst possible way? Heck no, why would I do that when I NEVER do that in my daily life. The point being that now I have the option and choice via my transplant to "hide" those areas with the "illusion of density".

[KO]

If the clinic should only show the patient at his "best" in order to sell surgery, then why does Dr Lorenzo do wet comb-throughs of patient hair?

 

To be clear I'm not attacking Hasson and Wong, just the cheerleading.

[mahhong]

I don't really understand the whole "cheerleading" concept personally. H&W have been doing great work for years and by and large continue to do great work. They've done a lot of groundbreaking stuff and have produced some of the most "legendary" results in the hair restoration community - the sorts of results that have contributed to the legitimization of hair transplantation over the last two decades or so and pushed the envelope on what is possible. I think that's why they're popular, I don't think there's any cheerleading, it's just a recognition of good and durable work.

 

Shampoo makes a really important point, too. I remember a case once where a man wanted his first HT to focus on his crown and vertex and wasn't too bothered about his hairline (despite it being pretty much non-existent). It was an odd choice to many people but that's how the guy felt about his own goals and the doctor, after educating the patient about the various pros and cons of the approach, went ahead with it. I'm 99% sure it was posted on here several years ago and the doctor explained the context behind the restoration. It wasn't what many people would have chosen but the patient was happy.

 

People have their own goals. For all we know this guy wasn't that fussed about a dense hairline; perhaps he was happy to be conservative in approach or is planning a final HT to deal with it. Perhaps this hairstyle was part of a carefully considered plan to meet his goals. This is all hypothetical of course, but that's sort of the point. I do feel too many people judge the work of doctors by their own goals sometimes.

 

As I say, if H&W were consistently posting photos where the hairline was obscured, or their documentation was erratic and half-hearted, I'd be inclined to agree with some of the concerns. But there are results on the front page of this forum from H&W of patients with their hair styled to very clearly show and make use of the hairline, so it's unfair to take one case and suggest it's indicative of some kind of cover up.

 

These are not scientific case studies, they're simply presentations of the outcomes or progress of various patients. Yes some consistency and quality is necessary and rightly demanded by the admin but we are not talking about controlled studies here, just informal presentations of work. These are large photos, taken from consistent before and after angles, showing pretty much every facet of the work in good detail. Some video or hairline examination would be nice but absence of it doesn't warrant suggestion of hidden problems or failures - that's particularly true in the absence of us not knowing the patient or his specific goals and medical history personally.

[Cryingoutloud]

Yes indeed, the cheerleading is tedious in the extreme.

 

The patient in this case didn't HAVE to show his full face, did he? He could just as easily have had his eyes, nose and mouth blurred out. I think the surgery has erred in publishing these pictures without the obligatory hairline shot.

 

It's down to the surgery to provide honest, transparent results photos/videos of results. I shouldn't have to traipse back through pictures of the first procedure to see the hairline - the damn thing should be presented in THESE photos.

 

I'm not saying H&W deliberately set out to deceive but all they had to do was comb the guy's hair back a bit to show the hairline. The fact they DIDN'T leads me to SUSPECT it probably looks like a dog's breakfast. It's entirely possible that it doesn't but a shot of the hairline would remove all doubt, wouldn't it?

 

There are way too many groupies on this forum who are too eager to cut surgeons who ought to know better more slack than they deserve given how much they charge for their procedures.

 

I fully accept that the guy looks better than he did and, clearly, he's happy with his result and that really is all that matters . . . TO HIM. However, the surgery is posting these pics as a showcase for their abilities on a public forum and as a HT patient myself, I'm saying the result looks 2nd rate because of the presentation.

 

Lorenzo, Bisanga, Arocha, Feriduni wouldn't dream of putting up rubbish photos of a hairspray-reinforced comb over after a 7,000-plus graft procedure.

[Cant decide]

Cryingoutloud do you not understand that most hair transplant surgeries are about "the illusion of density"?

 

Why should patients and/or clinics show a patient in the worst possible scenario or in a way they would never wear their hair styled?

 

Of course the photos are intended to "make the case for surgery" and show how well the illusion can be pulled off. Most of us realize even after surgery that we still don't have "enough" hair, but after surgery we know we now have enough to work with to make the illusion of density a reality.

 

You claim you would want to show your hairline, but you have no idea what people of different ages and different hair loss goals are. This guy looks a lot better and I am pretty sure he is thrilled with the difference of before and after.

 

In my case I would never show photos that make me look the worst, I will show photos that

are examples of how well I can pull of the illusion of density. Isn't that what this is all about for most guys except the very young patients in their twenties?

 

I still have thin areas, but after my surgery I now have enough hair to "down-play" and better hide those weak areas. Do you really think I am going to post photos of those weak areas combed or styled that expose those areas in the worst possible way? Heck no, why would I do that when I NEVER do that in my daily life. The point being that now I have the option and choice via my transplant to "hide" those areas with the "illusion of density".

 

Amen brother. amen!!!!

[KO]

I don't really understand the whole "cheerleading" concept personally. H&W have been doing great work for years and by and large continue to do great work. They've done a lot of groundbreaking stuff and have produced some of the most "legendary" results in the hair restoration community - the sorts of results that have contributed to the legitimization of hair transplantation over the last two decades or so and pushed the envelope on what is possible. I think that's why they're popular, I don't think there's any cheerleading, it's just a recognition of good and durable work.

 

.

 

No, each result should be evaluated on its own merits and not on the fame or reputation of the surgeon - no exceptions. If the result is not presented properly, forum members should be calling it out. As for the goals of the patient, it is irrelevant, the result should be displayed as it is seen in real life. If a NW6 patient gets hairline work done, it does not mean that the clinic should only show the front. Although even "reputed" clinics regularly do that.

 

Now, again I think this is a good result, I like the fact that the clinic showed crown shots but Cryingoutloud has a point in that the hairline is not visible.

[Cant decide]

No, each result should be evaluated on its own merits and not on the fame or reputation of the surgeon - no exceptions. If the result is not presented properly, forum members should be calling it out. As for the goals of the patient, it is irrelevant, the result should be displayed as it is seen in real life. If a NW6 patient gets hairline work done, it does not mean that the clinic should only show the front. Although even "reputed" clinics regularly do that.

 

Now, again I think this is a good result, I like the fact that the clinic showed crown shots but Cryingoutloud has a point in that the hairline is not visible.

 

So if only hairline work is done, they should showcase the crown ?

[KO]

They should showcase the whole head as it is seen in real life. Hope that is not difficult to understand.

[Cant decide]

They should showcase the whole head as it is seen in real life. Hope that is not difficult to understand.

 

I will take 3 days to take it in and understand?

[KO]

I will take 3 days to take it in and understand?

 

Sure, keep your cheerleader outfit handy until then.

[Cant decide]

Sure, keep your cheerleader outfit handy until then.

 

Will do. In the mean time, get a grip...

[mahhong]

Yes indeed, the cheerleading is tedious in the extreme.

 

The patient in this case didn't HAVE to show his full face, did he? He could just as easily have had his eyes, nose and mouth blurred out. I think the surgery has erred in publishing these pictures without the obligatory hairline shot.

 

It's down to the surgery to provide honest, transparent results photos/videos of results. I shouldn't have to traipse back through pictures of the first procedure to see the hairline - the damn thing should be presented in THESE photos.

 

I'm not saying H&W deliberately set out to deceive but all they had to do was comb the guy's hair back a bit to show the hairline. The fact they DIDN'T leads me to SUSPECT it probably looks like a dog's breakfast. It's entirely possible that it doesn't but a shot of the hairline would remove all doubt, wouldn't it?

 

There are way too many groupies on this forum who are too eager to cut surgeons who ought to know better more slack than they deserve given how much they charge for their procedures.

 

I fully accept that the guy looks better than he did and, clearly, he's happy with his result and that really is all that matters . . . TO HIM. However, the surgery is posting these pics as a showcase for their abilities on a public forum and as a HT patient myself, I'm saying the result looks 2nd rate because of the presentation.

 

Lorenzo, Bisanga, Arocha, Feriduni wouldn't dream of putting up rubbish photos of a hairspray-reinforced comb over after a 7,000-plus graft procedure.

 

I'm sorry but I've seen equally good (or equally bad, if you want to do it that way) documentation from pretty much every doctor on this board. This whole groupie context is a tad childish. There are plenty of equivalent sets of documentation from many of the doctors you would also appear to be "cheerleading". I don't even want to get into a debate about that because all the doctors on here are by and large excellent and I'm not into picking sides on that sort of thing.

 

KO - Nobody gets a HT on the basis of one set of photos (or at least they most certainly shouldn't). If I was considering a doctor I'd trawl through this site and look at virtually every case of theirs that bore some relevance to my own situation, and then do the same on their own sites and other forums. I'd meet with the doctor, I'd ask my questions, talk through a plan; I'd put forward my concerns and look for reassurance there, and probably contact a few patients myself to get personal insights. To that extent, context is essential and no one case could possibly hope to tell you everything you need to know - the whole is inherently greater than the parts in choosing a doctor. No single set of photos could give you an idea of what your own experience may be like - to that extent context is essential. No single documented case proves, disproves or suggests anything.

 

What if, hypothetically speaking, this gentleman and the doctor purposefully chose to go fairly conservative on the hairline because it was the patient's choice to style his hair this way? One could then argue the only true way to present this case would be the way the patient intends it to be shown. Or, let's even go with your own belief and say, actually, the hairline didn't turn out as spectacularly as hoped. Does that make this presentation invalid or, worse still, deceptive? As shampoo said - all HT is illusion in some way and so even if you were right and there was a less than stellar hairline lurking under there (there isn't), would that prove H&W are a poor choice?

 

By your logic anybody side parting their hair is covering something up and all cases should be presented with the hair brushed back to get a true sense of the patient's outcome. I would contend this isn't true. Virtually all documentation is lacking in some sense. For example there is no documentation of the scar in these photos - are we to assume there's some hideous, uneven, 3/4cm monstrosity of a scar lurking under there somewhere too?

 

Saying you shouldn't have to go "traipsing" through other threads isn't true - actually you should want to do that and it's essential to put a case into context. These threads are actually not here to satisfy your every desire, they're just documentation. They're not perfect demonstrations, I don't think anybody has suggested they were. If you were considering having a HT and you could be put off a surgery because one set of photos didn't come up to your standard, ask yourself; is that a bigger reflection on you or the surgery?

 

As I say, it's not that you don't have a point, it's just that you have nowhere near the point you think you do, in my opinion. I've seen some fluctuations in the documentation and the work of every doctor here, that's to be expected. Over time though, I feel I've got a handle on who has produced consistently quality work and I'd have no trouble saying H&W are among the best for that. No cheerleading, no groupie conspiracy, just a lot of gathering info and being objective.

[KO]

Even if the patient went deliberately conservative with his hairline which is fine, the result is less important how the patient chooses to see it compared to how everybody else does. That means good photos of hairline, mid scalp, crown, and donor.

[Spanker]

This is a nice result IMO. Couple things:

 

I'm not big on the term "illusion of density" because most people can't grasp that. I've had a transplant and seen tons and I never think of a transplant as an illusion. The bottom line is that a transplant into a bald area will not be as dense as a non balding person, but it can give you a permanent look of not being bald. A transplant in a thinning area can give the appearance of a full density. You can keep putting hair in your recipient until you run out of donor, so you should make sure that you manage where you put it so you can come out of it looking natural. When a person this guy's age gets a transplant it looks natural at less than original density. If you met this guy, you wouldn't think anything about his hair.

 

I feel like people get spoiled like someone said earlier, looking at a bunch of nw3s get 3500 grafts and expecting the same result from an advanced Norwood.

 

Honestly, if this result doesn't do it for you, you should really consider staying away from a hair transplant because you are very likely not going to be happy in the end.

 

I think the things you should expect from transplantation is to not look bald and look natural. You can't expect to look like Brad Pitt. There is just not enough donor for that.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Spanker

[Shampoo]

I'm not big on the term "illusion of density"

 

I respect your choice Spanker to not like it and I agree with you many patients do not fully grasp it, but I love the statement "illusion of density" because for me that is EXACTLY what it is. The lack of understanding of "illusion of density" is a huge contributor to patients not being happy a year later.

 

For me it describes a hair transplant for most patients down to a "T".

 

I have people all the time complimenting me on my great thick hair since my surgery.

 

I smile and appreciate their kind words...(thanks Dr. Wong)...but always think to myself,

"oh boy if they only knew". If they only knew they were seeing "an illusion of density".

 

I have become very skilled in working wonders with what Dr. Wong added to my hair. All I needed was something to work with. I had run out of enough hair to work with....my transplant simply gave me "a new palette to start painting with". But I don't really have real denisty.....but I can now.....when I couldn't before.... achieve a real "illusion of denisty".

 

And of course I am not going to splash pictures of my thinner parts to show as Dr. Wong's work. In my mind that would be stupid and not any where near the point of my transplant. Why show my thin parts in pics when no one ever sees those in my daily life? The point of my transplant is that now I have a choice to not show the weak spot, before my transplant the thin spots showed and all I could do was wear a ball cap....now I have other options.

 

As far as "cheerleading"....

how about I flew to Vancouver from Texas....got a great result that changed my life....if that is "cheerleading" so be it!

[1966kph]

Happy patient equals result.

If I ever do get a ht for which I have realistic expectations if I am happy that's all that matters to me.

Good for you shampoo and congratulations.

Have a nice day with your nice hair you swine.

Sorry a bit of gelousy creeping in.

[Shampoo]

Good for you shampoo and congratulations.

Have a nice day with your nice hair you swine.

Sorry a bit of gelousy creeping in.

 

LOL@1966!

 

ps: here I am today at Bass Pro Shops after church

at least i can go ball-cap-less now

 

[Spanker]

I respect your choice Spanker to not like it and I agree with you many patients do not fully grasp it, but I love the statement "illusion of density" because for me that is EXACTLY what it is. The lack of understanding of "illusion of density" is a huge contributor to patients not being happy a year later.

 

For me it describes a hair transplant for most patients down to a "T".

 

I have people all the time complimenting me on my great thick hair since my surgery.

 

I smile and appreciate their kind words...(thanks Dr. Wong)...but always think to myself,

"oh boy if they only knew". If they only knew they were seeing "an illusion of density".

 

I have become very skilled in working wonders with what Dr. Wong added to my hair. All I needed was something to work with. I had run out of enough hair to work with....my transplant simply gave me "a new palette to start painting with". But I don't really have real denisty.....but I can now.....when I couldn't before.... achieve a real "illusion of denisty".

 

And of course I am not going to splash pictures of my thinner parts to show as Dr. Wong's work. In my mind that would be stupid and not any where near the point of my transplant. Why show my thin parts in pics when no one ever sees those in my daily life? The point of my transplant is that now I have a choice to not show the weak spot, before my transplant the thin spots showed and all I could do was wear a ball cap....now I have other options.

 

As far as "cheerleading"....

how about I flew to Vancouver from Texas....got a great result that changed my life....if that is "cheerleading" so be it!

 

I guess illusion of density makes me think "fake." There isn't anything fake about it. I guess I understand that its less than full density and that works for me. It's all semantics as long as you understand.

 

Anyway, you result looks really good and very natural. Did you have any crown work?

[Shampoo]

Spanker I had a bit of crown work, but I intend on returning to Dr. Wong for a "crown focused" procedure.

 

I just sort of dread the 6 month ugly duckling phase so I keep procrastinating...lol.

[Spanker]

Good luck. I think it may not be as bad this time because you have stronger hair in the recipient. Good luck.