Dr Jose Lorenzo 6212 FUG

[Mickey85]

Greatjob,

 

Yes you and them are wrong, whether it is an opinion or not it is wrong.

 

You are arbitrarily stating that your opinion is right and everyone else's opinion is wrong. That is funny. FUE doctors are constantly pushing the bar on what can be achieved via FUE. What we have seen recently is just touching the surface. Different surgeons have different extraction protocol, some can extract a higher percentage of the donor without visible thinning due to proficient use of smaller guages, clever extraction patterns, thinner-walled punches, wider use of the donor etc.

 

However, if you got your way and strip was banned, I would be shit out of luck

 

Who said it should be banned? Market forces will dictate what happens. FUE is on the rise whilst strip is on the decline:

 

 

Blake has said that the current FUE figure is 40% of all cases.

 

It is just an opinion of mine and a few others than FUE is a superior method and better for the patient.

 

The only way you can say what I stated above is an opinion is by kindly telling me how a Nw 5/6 with lower donor density can extract 6,000+ grafts via fue

 

Show me a case where a NW5 or 6 with low density has been restored with 6,000 grafts via strip please? I'm talking low density(as you stated), not average. Most NW6's with low density would be declined for a procedure by strip or FUE. You think Bruce Willis could get restored with no compromise(very high hairline, very low density and coverage, lacking crown)? You act as if strip totally bypasses the density barrier but it is equally important as with FUE. In fact FUE actually eradicates one factor that limited many patients as candidates; Laxity. If someone has low density, they are not getting 6,000 grafts from strip or FUE(unless body hair is used)

 

Here are some FUE cases where NW5 and 6s have been restored with less than 6,000 grafts via FUE:

 

3,650 FUE grafts

 

2,600 FUE grafts

 

3,939 FUE grafts

 

4,300 FUE grafts before

 

After

 

 

In terms of your specific case and that you could not get more than 3,000 grafts via FUE, the flaw there is that you have publicly stated that you had a previous strip case where you are even in doubt of the graft count. Given the the occipital region is usually the densest, the first procedure would have significantly diminished the FUE quantity you could have gotten if no strip procedures were performed. Not to mention the lowering of density that occurs with each strip procedure.

 

You seem to arbitrarily dictate that if FUE can't solve 100.1% of all cases than it cannot replace strip. I feel that if it can solve the majority of cases than it can be used as a replacement. That is where we differ. Strip cannot cater for every single NW5 or 6. It can't treat 99% of nw7s. Neither can FUE. But I do believe FUE can treat the majority(as can strip) but FUE has fewer drawbacks and there is a growing demand for it whilst strip is on the decline. When I say FUE is the replacement for strip, I mean as the industry standard. Can it cater for every single balding/bald individual? No. But neither can strip.

 

Yes I am beginning to feel as if I am talking to a brick wall at this point

 

Feeling is mutual.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Mickey85

[greatjob]

I'm not even going to go through and address all your statements in your last post as it is becoming tiresome. However I think the issue is we don't seem to have a similar understanding of what the statement "FUE will replace strip" means, or you have altered the statement with your last post to make you appear in the right by claiming that you really meant that FUE will replace strip as the dominant procedure. Saying FUE will replace strip as the dominant procedure is not what you have been saying, because if it was we would not even be having this conversation, because I agree that is highly probable and I honestly would welcome that.

 

What we have been arguing about is the sentiment that fue will replace strip, and like I stated before that cannot be true without regeneration. And that statement is true, because FUE can't completely replace strip if it doesn't meet the needs of the entire marketplace, that is all I have been saying. However with the recent revelation of your "new" opinion this debate is over as I don't disagree that it is likely FUE will overtake strip as the dominant procedure.

 

The only other issue I have had in this thread, which isn't only with you, is you and a few other poster's insistence on bringing previous myths and misinformation about fue into all of the recent fue results posted, without reason or provocation, and then you and said posts begin mocking strip and strip doctors for no reason. We are all aware that there was great resistance towards FUE with its introduction, as is the case with the introduction of every new technology, and there is still some of that present today. But I don't think it is constructive or appropriate to continually dredge up old fights and beat a dead horse to death. I, and I'm sure all other members here, are happy to see these great FUE results, and I commend you as you have had a hand in bringing them to this forum, but you guys are doing these results a disservice by making unprovoked inflammatory remarks that are sure to turn every thread into a pissing match.

[Mickey85]

I'm not even going to go through and address all your statements in your last post as it is becoming tiresome. However I think the issue is we don't seem to have a similar understanding of what the statement "FUE will replace strip" means, or you have altered the statement with your last post to make you appear in the right by claiming that you really meant that FUE will replace strip as the dominant procedure. Saying FUE will replace strip as the dominant procedure is not what you have been saying, because if it was we would not even be having this conversation, because I agree that is highly probable and I honestly would welcome that.

 

What we have been arguing about is the sentiment that fue will replace strip, and like I stated before that cannot be true without regeneration. And that statement is true, because FUE can't completely replace strip if it doesn't meet the needs of the entire marketplace, that is all I have been saying. However with the recent revelation of your "new" opinion this debate is over as I don't disagree that it is likely FUE will overtake strip as the dominant procedure.

 

The only other issue I have had in this thread, which isn't only with you, is you and a few other poster's insistence on bringing previous myths and misinformation about fue into all of the recent fue results posted, without reason or provocation, and then you and said posts begin mocking strip and strip doctors for no reason. We are all aware that there was great resistance towards FUE with its introduction, as is the case with the introduction of every new technology, and there is still some of that present today. But I don't think it is constructive or appropriate to continually dredge up old fights and beat a dead horse to death. I, and I'm sure all other members here, are happy to see these great FUE results, and I commend you as you have had a hand in bringing them to this forum, but you guys are doing these results a disservice by making unprovoked inflammatory remarks that are sure to turn every thread into a pissing match.

 

That's all cool champ. That is really what I mean by "FUE will replace strip" I do believe that the majority of clinics will eventually become very FUE dominant if not FUE exclusive with a small minority performing strip for whatever reason(cost, ease, etc). I was vague on FUE being the 'replacement'. No where did I say strip won't exist or it will be obsolete, that was your assumption maybe. Usually I say I believe FUE is the superior procedure or FUE is the future. I have never said FUT is dead or obsolete. I agree with the Dr Mwamba quote that I used before:

 

"But FIT provide so many advantages over the strip in comfort that it will definitely replace the strip as the standard technique"

 

Strip can't and never could serve the entire market place which is why people are routinely denied and HT. FUE in its current state cannot either so I was a bit confused when about the "until regeneration occurs" thing.

 

 

I can't speak for others but I will make a conscious effort to try to avoid opening old wounds.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Mickey85

[Slickers]

Slicker, stop with the fabrications, those links were from this from April onwards. They were shown to prove that you stated a bunch of lies and to discredit you. You made false statements and I have proved they were totally conjured up by you. Of course I recognize that I am pro-FUE, I blatantly admit that! But you specifically said:

 

The only FUT threads you reply to is when there is a hint of a concern, you duly express your 'concern' and yet you ignore all the success stories. Conversely you refrain from expressing any such concerns where the procedure was FUE, at least not without qualification.

 

This is obviously untrue. I do not refrain from expressing concern over FUE. I do not ignore the great strip results. Just because I am pro-FUE does not mean I ignore strip results.

 

and directed me to a handful of comments

 

A handful? More like 16 buddy. That is more than 3 handfuls. Again with the lies.

 

That you sugar-coat some FUE results as "stellar", "mind-blowing" 'oh stop you're killing me with these FUE results" just cos they're FUE and in the main overlook strip results?

 

Ummmm I am pro-FUE, I look at way more FUE results than strip. FUE is a hard method to perfect so I am genuinely impressed when I see a great FUE case compared to the barrage of 1,500 graft strip cases.

 

Perhaps you didn't go over those links where I called certain strip results "Stellar:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/165572-dr-hasson-9168-grafts-one-session-one-day-post-op-6.html#post2349119

 

Or "Hot damn!"

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/170145-dr-bisanga-bhr-clinic-3721-fut-0-%96-10-months.html#post2343169

 

Or "Holy $h!+!"

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/171243-dr-nakatsui-4647-grafts.html#post2354992

 

Must be painful to be caught out huh?

 

I'm not sure what you are saying here by loosely quoting questions back to me?

 

I'm stating those quotations back at you because you used them on me and I proved you dead wrong.

As you've said it's a discussion forum and if you post you're going to get feedback.

 

Where did I ever say to stop giving feedback on my postings? Where did I complain? I proudly said "Call me out all you want". Bring it on buddy. Don't threaten me with action when it doesn't bother me one iota. I'm all for it.

 

It's paranoid.

 

Thanks Mr armchair psychologist for your analysis.

 

But I and others are free to object and take issue with them as well.

 

Object all you want pal, why should I care? Who am I to deny you the right to do so? But I will respond back in kind.

 

Mickey the only one you’re discrediting here is yourself. Posting a couple of exceptions to the “broad sentiment” and tendency of your posting doesn’t make it any less true. It’s clutching at straws mate. Say you posted 100 times, 200 times even, where you credited a strip result or other, big deal. Out of 1,900? The point is a simple one……… the VAST majority of your posts are prejudiced towards elevating FUE and undermining Strip. There is a generality that is irrefutable. To deny it, and call me a liar because of an overly literal illustration of my take on what you do is a poor attempt to deflect the blindly obvious. In the very same post you even acknowledge and defend why you do it. Seriously. Can’t you understand why this doesn’t make sense?

 

 

As for the other quotes, in-between laughing I can’t reply seriously. “Bring it on buddy” “Don’t threaten me with action……”. What?! What is wrong with you?

 

Look Mickey for last time I’m not on here to waste my time arguing semantics with you. I’m on here to keep abreast of the Docs doing good work, FUE or FUT, to see peoples success stories and give a little back by sharing my own story. If you want to immerse yourself in a crusade and throw petulant insults at anyone who disagrees with you then that’s up to you champ’. Knock yourself out. Clearly no amount of reasoning with you will make a blind bit of difference. Adios.

[Mickey85]

Mickey the only one you’re discrediting here is yourself. Posting a couple of exceptions to the “broad sentiment” and tendency of your posting doesn’t make it any less true. It’s clutching at straws mate. Say you posted 100 times, 200 times even, where you credited a strip result or other, big deal. Out of 1,900? The point is a simple one……… the VAST majority of your posts are prejudiced towards elevating FUE and undermining Strip. There is a generality that is irrefutable. To deny it, and call me a liar because of an overly literal illustration of my take on what you do is a poor attempt to deflect the blindly obvious. In the very same post you even acknowledge and defend why you do it. Seriously. Can’t you understand why this doesn’t make sense?

 

 

As for the other quotes, in-between laughing I can’t reply seriously. “Bring it on buddy” “Don’t threaten me with action……”. What?! What is wrong with you?

 

Look Mickey for last time I’m not on here to waste my time arguing semantics with you. I’m on here to keep abreast of the Docs doing good work, FUE or FUT, to see peoples success stories and give a little back by sharing my own story. If you want to immerse yourself in a crusade and throw petulant insults at anyone who disagrees with you then that’s up to you ‘champ’. Knock yourself out. Clearly no amount of reasoning with you will make a blind bit of difference. Adios.

 

Cya pal

[Spanker]

Hey Spanker, hope you been well.

 

I genuinely do believe FUE to be the replacement for strip. As do Reddy, Lorenzo, Umar, Hakan, Erdogan, Eser, Demirsoy, De Reys, keser etc. That does not mean anyone else has to at all. You say both have their place, that is totally fine man. You got a great result with strip and I'm happy for you. To say I don't have any idea what I'm talking about is your opinion, that's your privilege. The members can read the posts and decide on their own. That is their privilege.

 

 

Mickey,

 

I am not just saying that you don't know what you're talking about, I am directing it to anyone saying that, if, what you were saying is that FUE was a complete replacement for strip, which now, is something I don't think you are saying. It was not an attack directed at you, but anyone saying that, because it just isn't true. It's not an opinion, it's just a fact, and those facts are listed in your advantages/disadvantages as to why strip is not obsolete.

 

That is true Mickey, they can decide on their own, but it really needs to be on a fair playing field. No one is going to FUE threads and saying, "That's a great looking $55,000 procedure that took 2 years to get." We are letting people decide for themselves and not pushing an agenda.

 

I did not see anything new in this presentation that would make me think anything differently about FUE, except that he was able to get two 3,000 graft cases right, there is nothing exceptionally ground breaking about it. If a FUT doctor couldn't get two 3,000 procedures right, he would be getting bashed. Additionally, it was done artistically and very natural. Which again, is awesome, it is just not ground breaking in terms of it being FUE and therefore special.

 

If every FUE doc could get as good of results as Dr. Lorenzo and it wasn't so price prohibitive, I think that you would be on the right track. But as it stands, and probably for the foreseeable future, strip will have its place as well, not only because there are more doctors that can do it, but because there are more patients that can afford it.

 

I think you said Blake said that 40% of all procedures are FUE now. That may be true, but I have a feeling that if you looked at 100 of the top results this year, do you think that 40 of them would be FUE? I don't know.

 

I seriously considered FUE, but in the long run, it just wasn't reliable enough in my mind, and that was only a year ago plus 2 more years of research. Things could be getting better, that the potential of FUE is really being shown, but the list of doctors that do it really we and do it with artistry is just so short.

 

 

I don't think anyone here is against FUE or against you. It just gets tiresome as to the way things have been going. It's nothing personal.

 

I hope that FUE, strip, propecia, and nizoral all become obsolete, as hopefully a very effective non-surgical cure/treatment will pop soon.

[Mickey85]

 

I think you said Blake said that 40% of all procedures are FUE now. That may be true, but I have a feeling that if you looked at 100 of the top results this year, do you think that 40 of them would be FUE? I don't know.

 

 

40% is the figure Blake told me, I think it was worldwide or based on ISHRS data which would exclude surgeons who are not a part of it. I definitely cannot see 40% in North America but FUE is quite huge in Europe, the European forums are pretty much FUE dominant.

 

I have always maintained that strip will garner more grafts in general compared to FUE(as shown in my pros/cons list). My sentiments were in contrast to someone like Dr Feller who said something like "I don't think FUE will replace strip as the gold standard in hair transplantation but rather an adjunct". I definitely can see FUE becoming the gold standard and industry standard in the future. Strip never had the ability to restore 100% of balding/bald individuals so I naturally assumed that 'replacement' meant replacing it as the go-to procedure. I don't see strip going away completely. There will always be surgeons who have an easier time and get better results with strip, patients who want cost-effective HTs(sadly the price of FUE has not dropped in most parts of the world) want a megasession in one go etc.

 

You a cool guy Spanker, always cool debating or chatting with you.

[KO]

I know Mickey loves to evangelize FUE, but keep in mind, he's really trying to convince surgeons to adopt FUE - to simply show them that it can be done.

 

I see his point, especially when there are so many mediocre strip procedures from well known surgeons.

[Slickers]

I know Mickey loves to evangelize FUE, but keep in mind, he's really trying to convince surgeons to adopt FUE - to simply show them that it can be done.

 

I see his point, especially when there are so many mediocre strip procedures from well known surgeons.

 

There are just as many performing mediocre/ poor FUE.

 

There is a fine line between encouraging the industry to embrace advancements and challenge some of the lazy attitudes towards FUE (for which Mickey has rightly been given plenty of credit for on here), and pushing an agenda in an over-zealous way - which is basically where the criticism comes in.

 

It's difficult to comment further without re-igniting the debate. We simply have a difference of opinion. I don't think people should be pushed away from strip just because it's strip. There are too many excellent clinics changing peoples lives for the better for that. My preference as I've said before is to focus on the Docs doing outstanding work whatever the procedure.

[nathaniel]

Oh, I wish we had created a separate thread for this "FUE/Strip" discussion....That being said, I will create two posts: The first post to address specifically questions regarding this photograph of Lorenzo's work; the second post to jump into this hurricane of "FUE/Strip"...

 

Mick,

 

Exceptional result.

 

1) Beginning in September will Dr. Lorenzo operate exclusively out of your clinic in...London is it? Or will he travel back and forth between London and Spain doing hair transplants in both locations? I ask this because on the whole London is much more expensive than Spain.

 

2) What will be the cost of FUE w/ Dr. Lorenzo at your clinic in the UK? How does the cost differ from Dr. Lorenzo's procedures performed in Spain?

 

3) Will you offer travel discounts to patients based on distance travelled?

 

4) It has been stated that the coarseness and dark color of many Spanish patients' hair have contributed to the successful outcome visually of Dr. Lorenzo's work. My hair is sandy blonde/light brown and relatively fine (at least to me, I'm no hair expert). My hair is even lighter and finer on my temples. How do you take thicker, darker, coarser hair from the "safe zones" of FUE and match it convincingly to the lighter, finer hair along the temples in people whose hair is not dark and coarse?

 

5) Recently I met with a highly respected coalition doctor in the USA who performs both FUE and Strip. He is known for hairline design. He was very clear that he could not achieve visually the same results with FUE as he could with Strip. Remember - I am focusing on visual results - not graph yield or transections (I'm assuming his FUE procedures yield a comparative number/percentage of healthy grafts as his strip procedures do). Specifically this doctor stated that strip offered him a broader spectrum of subtle graft variations to construct a fine hairline than does FUE. I know this last statement will probably bring a wave of responses, but I do ask that responders minimize language that might trigger inflamed, nonobjective, off-topic emotional responses. Mick, your thoughts (as well as thoughts from Dr. Lorenzo) would be greatly appreciated. I would like to add that the coalition doctor I spoke with felt that even the BEST hairlines he had viewed by even the most acclaimed European FUE doctors did not match up in quality to the BEST hairlines he has viewed resulting from strip.

 

Ok.....let the fireworks begin....

 

Oh, one last thing, Mick, like Spanker I cannot afford a $56000 hair transplant - or even one at half the price. I will say that I am "fortunate" in that the coalition doctor stated he could create a stellar hairline with only 1000 grafts from strip, so in that sense I don't see me approaching a $56000 hair transplant thank goodness....

 

Ok.....now to post #2, which will be short....not sure about the responses, however....

[nathaniel]

Perhaps a new thread should be created to discuss the FUE/FIT opinions being expressed here? Either way, I agree with Blake and a few others on keeping the tone respectful - even though we all have experienced difficult emotional trauma resulting from our own hair loss histories - ultimately using loaded terminology such as "stupid" and "liar" does not contribute positively to objective and lucid discussions with regards to hair transplants.

 

That being said, I did follow one of Mickey's (a self avowed FUE proponent) link in this thread and it appears to me that Mickey acknowledges that depending on the situation FUT is a better option than FUE:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/169896-practical-theoretical-fue.html

 

FUE has many glaring advantages over FUT which would be more evident but I don't think it can supersede FUT just yet in terms of total hairs/grafts achievable. Sure you could go past 50% extraction on the donor, but I think it would be left cosmetically barren in most cases. Part of the reason people want FUE is to avoid the linear scar and other complications(visual and other) on the donor of FUT so going past 50% via FUE would in a way be reverting back to the unacceptable donor result that lead people away from FUT in the first place.

 

There is a 10,000 graft FUE result and to me, it does not look convincing at all. The patient was basically a NW7 and the result after several operations was average at best. Maybe the patient was happy with the result but I certainly would not be. And that is not a flaw of the surgeon as he is one of the best FUE surgeons in the world, but a limitation of hair transplantation and particularly FUE. In most cases there just is not enough donor hair to cover a NW6 or 7 with enough coverage and density... Even with FUT the surgeons have to compromise with an unnaturally high hairline and spare crown density.

 

All in all I like that you have embraced FUE and I do see this trend continuing but I do not see FUE transcending FUT in terms of total graft/hair quantity. Maybe sporadically but not consistently. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

(Bold italics added for emphasis by me, Nathaniel).

[JustOne]

amazing ! truly. this guy must be so happy

[balody]

Wow Mick,what a result! Haven't been on here for a while and i see nothing has changed lol

Hope you and the team are keeping well:)

[Injertocapilar.com]

Video:

33 yo patient who had quit his medical treatment due to possible side effects. We advised to re-started in low doses in our first consultation. We planned a 2 steps reconstruction. First: 3111 Fu’s (5819 hairs; 1.87 hairs/graft; 47-58 microns of hair; 0.75 mm punch). Second, 1 year after: 3101 Fu’s (5669 FU’s; 1.9 hairs/unit; 0.85 mm punch). Low rate hair/graft but good result due to combination of surgery and low doses of anti-dht. Dr. Jos? Lorenzo. Injerto Capilar. Madrid. Spain

 

First procedure:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second procedure: