Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Time to do something, I *really* feel for you and hope all turns out well...I haven't read this *entire* thread, but there are a couple of points I would like to comment on... Your Results Thus Far: I have *not* seen where precisely the grafts where placed, but regardless at the 9 month mark for that # of grafts, I too would expect a better result. What is a Mega Session: KevKristy--- "There are a few in here who say that even full growth at 2500 will not make a difference. I mean how carried away are we getting? 2500 was a mega session not too long ago, and people were raving on this site. Now it's nothing? Go to Epsteins website. Most of his patients are in the 2-3K range." Just by virtue of the fact that it was not too long ago that 2,500 grafts was considered a "mega-sesion" this does not change the fact that this is, by some docs standards today, considered a far cry from a mega-session... Some docs have pushed the envelope and have thereby radically changed what we can expect from ht's and even a single session, *donor and laxity permitting*... How can 2,500 be considered a mega session when H&W are *routinely* cranking out 4 and 5K grafts? Let alone those cases of 6, 7K+? Why should our expectations be stuck in the past, irrespective of how short ago that past was? Further, 2,500 is a relative number; relative to the NW level. 2,500 grafts moved on a NW3 w/limited hair loss restricted to his hair line will make for a *huge* cosmetic transformation. But, 2,500 (even in the best growth scenario) will *not* make that huge of a transformation on a NW5... I really don't understand peoples tendency to be stuck in the past w/respect to what is and is not considered a mega-session. We should be welcoming w/open arms those docs who can push 4 and 5K grafts out routinely and be thankful. There are so many reasons to go for the max# of grafts possible in the *first* session and little to none, not to. Also, it is interesting to note this is the second complaint we've seen against Dr. E in just a couple of months. The Feller patient who recently had (I believe) 7K+ grafts moved in two sessions, went to Dr. E originally and was turned down for even one transplant; further he felt as though he was treated in a less than favorable manner. I know of a few well respected members who are quite happy w/Dr. E's results (want hairs comes to mind) but nonetheless, this only exemplifies the vast discrepancy among even those in the "coalition"... Final Note--- if you have extensive baldness (i.e. NW5+, even 4+) do you *really* want to settle for what *used* to be considered a mega-session? Part of the biggest expense of a ht, is undergoing the down time. Why go for anything less than the best of possible results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member kevkristy Posted April 7, 2008 Regular Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 hey notgoing2gobald In response to 2500 and mega session. I think you need to read the entire thread. I never said 2500 should be considered a "mega session." I simply said it was considered one not too long ago, and lately people are just dismissing it. Pat said similarly that 1500 was considered "mega" 10 years ago. Secondly, the 2500 in question was concentrated on 1/3 of scalp. So no matter how you cut it, this should make a huge difference, even on a NW5 or 6. Bill said similarly within thread. Obvioulsy if the 2500 were spread out on the entire scalp of a NW5 it would produce a marginal difference. Either way, thanks for your input, and advice. -KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 hey notgoing2gobald In response to 2500 and mega session. I think you need to read the entire thread. I'll wait for the Cliff Notes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I definitely sympathize with both you guys (Kev and Time). To get to 6+ months, let alone 9 months, and have such ostensibly non-existent growth would be *extremely* *extremely* troubling to me. I agree with PleaseGrowPlease's analysis w/ regard to "standing by the work". Also, I don't think NG2GB was insinuating that ~2500 is so low of a number that you shouldn't be shocked to have such minimal effect; rather, that just in general, even with "full" growth, the ~2500 still might leave you in a clear need in your particular case. ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Time to do something Posted April 7, 2008 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I am trying to stay positive and hope this will all work out in the end. I have received several private messages about this situation. I have also sent a private message to Pat and Bill for some guidance and I am waiting to hear back from them. They indicated yesterday on this thread that they had contacted Dr. Epstein and they were waiting to hear back from him. I have received some private messages urging me to consult with another doctor and demand a refund from Dr. Epstein. I thought I had done my research thoroughly before selecting him to do my procedure. I'm not pointing any fingers at this time but I hope I can solve the mystery as to why after nine months and $10K I'm still bald for all practical purposes. I am really confused now and don't know what to do. I am really discouraged to think that the past nine months of waiting may have been for nothing and many of my grafts are lost forever and can never be replaced. I have been encouraged to get a refund from Dr. Epstein and take that money and go to H&W. I've got to live with this for the rest of my life. I am happy with who I am and my appearance but the one thing I could never feel good about was being bald. That is why I took all of my savings and invested in this. I've got so much going on in my life right now this is a complication I did not need. God, I pray this all works out. NW5 Dr. Epstein July 4, 2007 2520 grafts 471 one hair grafts 1540 two hair grafts 505 three hair grafts 5070 Total hair count Dr. Epstein August 4, 2008 2384 grafts 870 one hair grafts 1150 two hair grafts 364 three and four hair grafts 4262 Total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro November 18, 2009 1896 grafts 760 one hair grafts 852 two hair grafts 288 three hair grafts 46 four hair grafts 3362 total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro July 1, 2011 1191 grafts 447 one hair grafts 580 two hair grafts 150 three hair grafts 14 four hair grafts 2113 total hair count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infield missing Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 As someone looking for a first time procedure, I find this thread both informative and disheartening. I don't care how nice a Dr. is or how much he stands behind his work. A limited donor area once harvested is irreplaceable. Are results of Time, kev and Irish homer up to this site's coalition standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Timetodosomething, man I *really* feel for you, as does everyone else on here Im sure, and keep us posted as we're all here to support you. Investing nine months (of grueling patience) -AND- your savings has got to hurt; hearing those words from your recent post really drives home your pain. While, at this point, nothing Dr. E says will be of any consolation I would still like to hear what he has to say about this and, more importantly I hope you still see a significant amount of growth and maturity. infield missing: "As someone looking for a first time procedure, I find this thread both informative and disheartening. I don't care how nice a Dr. is or how much he stands behind his work. A limited donor area once harvested is irreplaceable." I completely agree w/you. Although this is extremely rare, and hopefully as mentioned TTDS will still see more growth, circumstances like these are what makes it difficult for me (and Im sure plenty others) to make this decision. As if the down time wasn't enough, the biggest loss are the grafts that *seem* to be non-existent at this point. *If* the growth is non-existent in the coming months, I would really like to hear how rare this occurs and is it attributed to the mishandling of grafts? I have heard some opinions that it could be attributed to a patients physiology, but doesn't this only account for grafts that *thin,* and not one's that simply don't "take"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 TTDS, The number one cause of a "failed hair transplant" procedure is poor handling of the grafts during the dissection processing, storing process, or placement process. However, physiological factors can come into play. In your case, Dr. Epstein has proposed that your gray hair may be a factor and/or the hair piece may have caused the delay. Right now, as discouraging as your 9 month results are, I do not feel we can fully determine whether or not this is a "failed hair transplant". In my opinion, it would be wise to wait until the one year mark (which is when most veterans will tell you a hair transplant is close to fully mature) before making a final evaluation and decision. At the same time however, it's not necessarily a bad idea to get a second opinion from another qualified hair transplant surgeon or even meet with Dr. Epstein who may be able to evaluate your scalp to get a better idea of a potential problem. In my opinion, making an offer to replace grafts for free if they don't grow sounds nice but unfortunately is of little value since 1) it is a waste of a finite donor hair supply and 2) if it didn't grow the first time, what makes anyone think it will grow the second time? I do know however, that Dr. Epstein does stand behind his work and I trust he will do everything in his power to take care of you. Please keep us posted. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member kevkristy Posted April 7, 2008 Regular Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I think TTDS nailed it. It's the down time that is so devastating. Money can be made, spent, and recouped. Time cannot. -KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Time to do something Posted April 7, 2008 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I did have my HT on the 4th of July. Maybe the techs would have rather been somewhere else that day. I am really concerned about the hairpiece statement. That is odd. I'm even more perplexed now because Dr. Epstein told me wearing a hair piece would be absolutely no problem and many of his clients over the years have done so. If indeed there was the slightest doubt that this could have been a detriment to my outcome I should have been told so in the beginning. I agree with you, I don't want to take a chance of wasting more donor hair. I suppose I should go to another doctor to get an estimate of how many grafts were successful. I will need an unbiased source to determine this. Can you recommend a doctor in the Central Florida area? I see this potentially turning into a monster. NW5 Dr. Epstein July 4, 2007 2520 grafts 471 one hair grafts 1540 two hair grafts 505 three hair grafts 5070 Total hair count Dr. Epstein August 4, 2008 2384 grafts 870 one hair grafts 1150 two hair grafts 364 three and four hair grafts 4262 Total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro November 18, 2009 1896 grafts 760 one hair grafts 852 two hair grafts 288 three hair grafts 46 four hair grafts 3362 total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro July 1, 2011 1191 grafts 447 one hair grafts 580 two hair grafts 150 three hair grafts 14 four hair grafts 2113 total hair count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Time, I think you are acting in a very commendable way under such circumstances. Between the sound advice/support offered, and what we can only hope -- and assume -- to be a sympathetic and willing reaction by Dr. Epstein, I'd try to find solace in knowing you are moving forward with a vast array of (powerful) options. Also, you never know -- in the next ~3months you might make some appreciable headway, which can only help. As for docs in Central Florida -- I am pretty inept at geography, but Dr. Charles, perhaps? Don't worry about things getting out of control; you have sincere support and a good head on yer shoulders. ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Time to do something Posted April 7, 2008 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I would like to hear from others who have gray hair or wore a hair piece to see how long it took their HT to mature. This is the first I've heard that gray hair takes longer to come to the surface (longer than nine months) and that a hairpiece could inhibit growth. In fact I've heard the opposite. I've heard in the past year from many hair piece wearers who had no problems at all. Also it was mentioned that it could be a physiological factor. How would I know if I have something wrong with me that prevents me from being a successful hair transplant patient? If I am one of the rare people who a hair transplant won't work on I don't want to go thought the time, trauma, expense and stress again only to find out it was not successful. NW5 Dr. Epstein July 4, 2007 2520 grafts 471 one hair grafts 1540 two hair grafts 505 three hair grafts 5070 Total hair count Dr. Epstein August 4, 2008 2384 grafts 870 one hair grafts 1150 two hair grafts 364 three and four hair grafts 4262 Total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro November 18, 2009 1896 grafts 760 one hair grafts 852 two hair grafts 288 three hair grafts 46 four hair grafts 3362 total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro July 1, 2011 1191 grafts 447 one hair grafts 580 two hair grafts 150 three hair grafts 14 four hair grafts 2113 total hair count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Most of us hid under a hat until growth and that was never a factor. Your peice is lace so that bs is out of the question since it can breathe. Ive seen tons of guys with gray hair that had normal growth . Did he plant ALL gray hair? I just hope he is using this spin move to buy some time and keep you off the edge in hope things shape up . Hang in there 3 more months because you might be a rare case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I think your next (best) course of action is what you have already stated doing, that is: having a consultation with a *different* doc and have him evaluate your situation (i.e. how many grafts would he estimate have grown it, if the hair piece would have altered your growth/yield, etc)...then you can take it from there. Also, *if* your first transplant does indeed turn out to have not yielded what was harvested, or even *if* it does for that matter, I would strongly consider going to H&W and getting MAXED out, as many grafts as possible for your next surgery, so you will limit the likelihood of having less than favorable results, and also as I just think this should be the first line of attack for ANYONE w/considerable loss... Hang in there, we're all here for you man! PGP--- "Your peice is lace so that bs is out of the question since it can breathe. Ive seen tons of guys with gray hair that had normal growth"... I agree 100% and what's worse and even more concerning is that if either of these conditions were to possibly have a detrimental (or prolonged "growth" in the case of grey hair) affect on his ht to begin with, then why was he not informed PRIOR to surgery? I don't like to point a finger at a doc, especially over just one case, but this is the third case I recall now w/a complaint against this doc in just the past month or two: TTDS, Godsluv, and the Feller patient... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member hairthere Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 ttds, one suggestion i would offer you just to help your appearance would be to buzz the sides and back down a bit. also, did epstein take immediate post-op pics? if he did you should have them. posting them here would also help us all get a better idea of what's going on. and you might want to post some better angles of your head now along with some closer shots. I am the owner/operator of AHEAD INK a Scalp Micropigmentation Company in Fort Lee, New Jersey. www.aheadink.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 That concerns me about 3 recent complaints. Im wondering if there were some new techs hired at the time. A question everyone should ask is , How long have your techs worked with you? For instance a place like SMG is so consistent in the results they acheive is because Janna and others have been there for a long time and actually they are the ones responsible for the growth of the grafts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 TTDS, If you are considering getting a second opinion, Dr. Charles, Dr. Rose, and Dr. Nusbaum are all first-rate Coalition physicians in the state of FL. Also, if you can get together with Dr. Epstein in person, let him evaluate your scalp to see if he can get a better idea what might be going on. I'm not convinced that the hair piece or gray hair has anything to do with the poor growth at this point, but some patient bloom late, and you may be one of them. It's all projection at this point, and a physician may be able to give you a better indication if they can examine you in person. This is why before making a final evaluation and decision on how to proceed is best left to the one year mark. Nonetheless, I am concerned about this and hope you'll keep us updated on your progress. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Time to do something Posted April 7, 2008 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 I have received private messages with complaints from patients other than the ones Bill mentioned. I'm scared. I REALLY hope this is just a bad dream or a case of me getting overly worked up to quickly. NW5 Dr. Epstein July 4, 2007 2520 grafts 471 one hair grafts 1540 two hair grafts 505 three hair grafts 5070 Total hair count Dr. Epstein August 4, 2008 2384 grafts 870 one hair grafts 1150 two hair grafts 364 three and four hair grafts 4262 Total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro November 18, 2009 1896 grafts 760 one hair grafts 852 two hair grafts 288 three hair grafts 46 four hair grafts 3362 total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro July 1, 2011 1191 grafts 447 one hair grafts 580 two hair grafts 150 three hair grafts 14 four hair grafts 2113 total hair count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Time to do something Posted April 7, 2008 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 As much as I don't want to make a trip to Miami (his Tampa office is closer but he is rarely there) I wonder why Dr. Epstein hasn't contacted me with that request? NW5 Dr. Epstein July 4, 2007 2520 grafts 471 one hair grafts 1540 two hair grafts 505 three hair grafts 5070 Total hair count Dr. Epstein August 4, 2008 2384 grafts 870 one hair grafts 1150 two hair grafts 364 three and four hair grafts 4262 Total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro November 18, 2009 1896 grafts 760 one hair grafts 852 two hair grafts 288 three hair grafts 46 four hair grafts 3362 total hair count Dr. Ron Shapiro July 1, 2011 1191 grafts 447 one hair grafts 580 two hair grafts 150 three hair grafts 14 four hair grafts 2113 total hair count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Im wondering if there were some new techs hired at the time That would make perfect sense, BUT the Feller patient saw Epstein directly and was denied a ht, because he thought he wasn't a good candidate; later Feller got over 7 (or 8?) K grafts from him; Godsluv ht was a couple of years ago, but he just recently came on here complaining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member MORE_HAIR Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Time to do something. I figured I'd jump in here and share something I found. But first...know you're in good hands with this forum and will be helped out no matter what your growth is in the next few months. Any coalition doc HAS to stand by you and do the right thing...if they don't there reputation is at risk. Days of doctors disappearing and not taking your calls are over thanks to the internet. Plus Epstein is a good man. Not that this does you any good but I used Dr.Epstein and I'm a little over four months post-op and all is going as planned. Dr.Epstein is real passionate about his work....he'll be all over this i'm sure. Let me share something I read in Dr.Bernstein and Dr.Rassman's "The Patients Guide To Hair Restoration"...got this out the 6th edition of their writings. Page 88...DELAYED OR RUDUCED GROWTH "Growth cycles vary widely,some patients may experience significantly delayed growth. This can produce substantial anxiety for these patients" "We have seen significant growth between 12-24 months following a hair transplant in a few patients who presented with delayed growth. In the rare case of reduced growth,additional work may be necessary." If you don't know Dr.Bernstein because he's not mentioned much on the forum...he's kind've a guru/scientist type. Ask Bill about his reputation. Hang in there buddy. You're not alone...we all feel for you. This just may turn around and surprise you. Stay strong...you have plenty of options. MH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I have received private messages with complaints from patients other than the ones Bill mentioned. TTDS, I'm a little concerned by this statement since I didn't mention anybody by alias or name to you. If patients are having concerns that didn't already address them, I'd encourage them to come forward. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member condoguy Posted April 7, 2008 Regular Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 what about dbk20022003? didnt he also have a complaint? I think he was at 7 mos growth but he wasnt happy with the location of his hairline or coverage? 7 mos is too early to judge as well though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member notgoing2gobald Posted April 7, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 7, 2008 Ah yes, dbk20022037.9626181671811638261281167abcdefghijklmmnopqrstuvwxyandzTHISISHOWIKNOWMYABC'S... how did his name slip my mind? Godsluv & Feller's dude complained... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member nm315 Posted April 8, 2008 Senior Member Share Posted April 8, 2008 this must be the most disturbing post... this website gave the feeling dr e was one of the best in the feild of ht.. now every guy thinking of ht will be scared... http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/blog/home-page.asp?WebID=1247 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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