Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Okay, I've found the pictures Matt took of me immediately prior to the HT (my first). It was Nov.8, 2002, just over 6 months ago. Needless to say, they paint the best picture I've found yet as to how much I've reaped from the 2350+ grafts I received that day by Dr Shapiro. Also worth noting, for my second HT (for which we're currently looking at this December), Dr Shapiro is going to be doing FUE for my right temple, in combination with a strip for the rest of my head. You can see, when looking at my frontal photo, how my right temple is actually quite thinner than my left (especially along the "jaw-clench bulge"). This is actually hereditary, so I know it will not be mirrored by my left side at any stage down the road, hence I'm taking the initiative to even things out somewhat. The exact number of grafts will be between 100 to 200 cherry picked, "temple worthy" hairs, with ultra thin ones backing them up, if necessary, from the strip itself. The extracted FU's will be pulled from my substantially thicker left side. The strip itself will be for about 1500+ grafts on the second pass (for the rest of my head). On the topic of FUE, Dr Shapiro said that he is all for it when it comes to situations such as this, or when it is a comparatively smaller session which is being sought. I don't want to start anything here, but it's also worth noting, I think, that Dr Shapiro is being so "conservative" only because of consultations he's had with many of the more well-known names in FUE that he's discussed the matter with. By his account, from those who were being honest with him, FUE still yields, on average, as much as a 20% transection rate due the fact that it's such a blind extraction process, as it stands now. That's not to say there aren't some doctors out there who haven't reduced that average ??“ even substantially, only to say that according to many of the ones most anyone here would recognize immediately as quite pre-eminent in the field of FUE (here in the US at least), the above statement still holds true (and no, I'm NOT naming names). Personally, I think this may lend credence as to why Dr Cole was so adamant concerning the COMPLETE transference of one's attention towards the one method as opposed to the other, but even he still does large sessions by strip, unless I'm mistaken ??“ perhaps for this very reason; when dealing out grafts by the thousands, surely ANY percentile increase in transection deserves pause. Looking at it from Dr Shapiro's standpoint, this view (however you deem it may've been arrived at) fits-in with his views on density as well, IMO. We've been witness, to paraphrase Matt Zupan, to a real "pissing contest" between doctors (and consequently, patients) in regards to density, and how much density Dr X can give you vs. Dr Y. This is all very good and well for those lucky individuals with the scalp laxity to afford such sessions, but for those (I suspect such as myself) for whom care SHOULD be taken with regard to potential scar stretch, bigger is not necessarily better. I, for one, am very keen on keeping as unbelievably thin a scar as I now possess from session #1, once session #2 has passed. Sure, if I had the scalp laxity of some of the more prominent examples of high density HT patients, I'm sure such super-high density sessions would return equally amenable results, scar-wise, but that's NOT the only reason I happen to agree with the 20-25 FU per cm2 per session approach. Survival of the grafts plays an important role as well for many, if not all, HT patients, and said survival is in no small part dependant on the blood supply transplanted grafts ARE in competition for once transplanted. The greater the scarcity of blood supply through overly-abundant competition, the lower one's graft survival rate becomes. Dr Shapiro doesn't do 20-25 FU per cm2 sessions because he's ??unable' to do 45+, he does it because he's not yet convinced of the efficacy such higher-density sessions yield in terms of graft survival. Sometimes it's hard to see the norm in light of the brightest stars, but THAT's what he continues to base his practices on, pissing contests aside. The fact that this further ensures the best possible results scar-wise doesn't hurt either (But please, before anyone thinks I'm "attacking" anybody/thing here ??“ I am NOT saying that practitioners of higher density HT's lack the integrity to field-out those who would not best benefit from such approaches either. Obviously, if their experience has informed them, safely, otherwise ??“ more power to them!). In any case, here are my 6 month post-op pics... Let me know what you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Okay, I've found the pictures Matt took of me immediately prior to the HT (my first). It was Nov.8, 2002, just over 6 months ago. Needless to say, they paint the best picture I've found yet as to how much I've reaped from the 2350+ grafts I received that day by Dr Shapiro. Also worth noting, for my second HT (for which we're currently looking at this December), Dr Shapiro is going to be doing FUE for my right temple, in combination with a strip for the rest of my head. You can see, when looking at my frontal photo, how my right temple is actually quite thinner than my left (especially along the "jaw-clench bulge"). This is actually hereditary, so I know it will not be mirrored by my left side at any stage down the road, hence I'm taking the initiative to even things out somewhat. The exact number of grafts will be between 100 to 200 cherry picked, "temple worthy" hairs, with ultra thin ones backing them up, if necessary, from the strip itself. The extracted FU's will be pulled from my substantially thicker left side. The strip itself will be for about 1500+ grafts on the second pass (for the rest of my head). On the topic of FUE, Dr Shapiro said that he is all for it when it comes to situations such as this, or when it is a comparatively smaller session which is being sought. I don't want to start anything here, but it's also worth noting, I think, that Dr Shapiro is being so "conservative" only because of consultations he's had with many of the more well-known names in FUE that he's discussed the matter with. By his account, from those who were being honest with him, FUE still yields, on average, as much as a 20% transection rate due the fact that it's such a blind extraction process, as it stands now. That's not to say there aren't some doctors out there who haven't reduced that average ??“ even substantially, only to say that according to many of the ones most anyone here would recognize immediately as quite pre-eminent in the field of FUE (here in the US at least), the above statement still holds true (and no, I'm NOT naming names). Personally, I think this may lend credence as to why Dr Cole was so adamant concerning the COMPLETE transference of one's attention towards the one method as opposed to the other, but even he still does large sessions by strip, unless I'm mistaken ??“ perhaps for this very reason; when dealing out grafts by the thousands, surely ANY percentile increase in transection deserves pause. Looking at it from Dr Shapiro's standpoint, this view (however you deem it may've been arrived at) fits-in with his views on density as well, IMO. We've been witness, to paraphrase Matt Zupan, to a real "pissing contest" between doctors (and consequently, patients) in regards to density, and how much density Dr X can give you vs. Dr Y. This is all very good and well for those lucky individuals with the scalp laxity to afford such sessions, but for those (I suspect such as myself) for whom care SHOULD be taken with regard to potential scar stretch, bigger is not necessarily better. I, for one, am very keen on keeping as unbelievably thin a scar as I now possess from session #1, once session #2 has passed. Sure, if I had the scalp laxity of some of the more prominent examples of high density HT patients, I'm sure such super-high density sessions would return equally amenable results, scar-wise, but that's NOT the only reason I happen to agree with the 20-25 FU per cm2 per session approach. Survival of the grafts plays an important role as well for many, if not all, HT patients, and said survival is in no small part dependant on the blood supply transplanted grafts ARE in competition for once transplanted. The greater the scarcity of blood supply through overly-abundant competition, the lower one's graft survival rate becomes. Dr Shapiro doesn't do 20-25 FU per cm2 sessions because he's ??unable' to do 45+, he does it because he's not yet convinced of the efficacy such higher-density sessions yield in terms of graft survival. Sometimes it's hard to see the norm in light of the brightest stars, but THAT's what he continues to base his practices on, pissing contests aside. The fact that this further ensures the best possible results scar-wise doesn't hurt either (But please, before anyone thinks I'm "attacking" anybody/thing here ??“ I am NOT saying that practitioners of higher density HT's lack the integrity to field-out those who would not best benefit from such approaches either. Obviously, if their experience has informed them, safely, otherwise ??“ more power to them!). In any case, here are my 6 month post-op pics... Let me know what you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 After: Right Side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Before: Left Side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 After: Left Side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Before: Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 After: Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 If I can enjoy the same benefit that Wassup benefited from with his second HT, when I have mine (see below - all of it) http://www.hair-restoration-info.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=5696015661&f=7466060861&m=5136062861&r=6136062861#6136062861 ... then I will be a TRULY happy, REBORN man! All the Best! HarryLemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocor1 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 HarryLemon: Things look very good! I've enjoyed following your story. I recently talked to Shapiro about FUE and he told me the same thing as you did. You have accurately written his opinion on the matter. I am beginning to believe with me, a FUE session of 200-400 FU in the frontal third might be okay. You know what is funny: a month ago I thought I'd like another 1000-1500 grafts, but it now seems utterly wasteful. One of my temples currently is slightly less dense than the other. It shows up in progression picts. It really isn't a big deal, but a few more FUs in the frontal third to "fine tune" my result will be acceptable to me. I know that Shapiro is like $4.5 a graft for FU strip. Do you know what he wants for FUE? I'm curious, and I didn't ask. I too am not too eager for another strip. Considering the ongoing result, the strip was certainly worthwhile. But that doesn't mean I particularly enjoyed hiding it or dealing with those damned infections or ingrown hairs I had. That was a bummer. I also want a very small scar. So maybe an FUE touch up session is right for me too. Anyway, keep up the info flow. Let us know how things proceed and I look forward to hearing your response. vocor1 Knowledge is Power If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member NW Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Looks good man ! I think if you went for a 2nd HT you could easliy drop the alley recession "just slightly", but the hair looks excellent anyways !..you must be excited, you have far better hair in front and will only grow nicer/stronger with time. Keep truckin on! NW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member uncjim Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Looks Great Harry! Very natural and totally undetectible. "Temples 'n Crowns Forever" Uncjim's Hair Loss WebLog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 vocor1: Thanks for your reply - I appreciate the sentiment! You know, I have no idea what, if any, change in rate I'll be paying for the FUE grafts, but I'm sure it'll be reasonable - I'll keep you posted on my findings (if I remember to ask - what price perfection, eh? LOL). I never really had any problem with the donor site after my HT, but then I had at least a couple inches of hair growth back there then. For me it was the pinkness along the front which persisted much longer than I ever thought it would (and still becomes slightly evident on my temples after my daily applications of Lipoxidil!) which was the greatest pain. I know that 'need' is a somewhat subjective matter (especially when it comes to cosmetic surgery), but I NEED to have at least 45/50 per cm2 along my hairline (if not more). The sheer freedom which has already been afforded by the return of what's come back is more than intoxicating for me; it's been no less than life transforming! I am so nearly there now, but what bugs you bugs you and there are no buts about it. I will continue to be 'bugged' until that full, but at least mature, look is back, and brother, I am WELL on my way! I view it like this though: wait at least a year for scalp laxity to return (accompanied by regular scalp stretching exercises - which I'll be starting now), and I can very reasonably expect a scar of much the same dimensions (most certainly no more than 2mm maximum - it's no more than 1mm now though, at the widest point) from the second one. Once the front 3rd (and temple frontlines) have been established (which those two strip sessions will accomplish), then I will proceed with nothing other than FUE for any touch-up work the future may require. Screw the possibilities of getting a scar which prohibits a short hair cut - it'll be nothing but FUE from HT #2 onwards. I have zero interest in ever shaving my head again, but I most certainly DO look damn good with a short clip, however - no way I'm gonna forfeit that. Regarding my right temple - in this case pictures really do NOT do this topic justice. If you saw me in person and studied the difference in thickness between my right side and left side it would dawn on you that, "oh yeah - wow" it really IS a lot thinner than my left side, throughout. For which I heartily say: "Don ye your green tights, Sir Robyn Hood, and do what thou doth best, for the vanquished hath rarely needed it so desperately!" <Praetorian lute and organ fades gradually>... Regards, HarryLemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Thank you NW and uncjim! NW - What, exactly, are the "power alleys"? I've never really figured that one out yet... I assume that's what you mean by "alley recession", but which PART of my hairline is that, precisely?? Is it the bit that juts perpendicular to the hairline, just north of the temple points (where the temples start to angle down from the horizontal hairline)??? Many thanks, HarryLemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 You've got to be thrilled and it's only going to get better. I also appreceiated your report of the discussion with Matt regarding density and FUE. You also said "to paraphrase Matt it's turned into a pissing contest between doctors." If that was the paraphrase, I'd love to hear what he actually he said (LOL)! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 12, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Paul148 - Thanks! The "pissing contest" remark is actually a direct quote from Matt (pretty funny analogy, I thought), but all my discussions on FUE were with Dr Shapiro... Thanks again, HarryLemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member arfy Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Harry Lemon I believe the term "power alleys" refers to temple recession. To take it to an extreme level, a guy like Jack Nicholson has "power boulevards" I'm not sure where the term comes from, but (wild guess) it refers to a distinguished older gentleman... a guy with temple recession tends to suggest maturity, wisdom and power. I think Dr. Shapiro plotted out a nice hairline shape for you, especially as seen in your semi-profile "after". I do see a noticeable difference in your left and right side in your befores... from one angle you look like you might have even waited to get a HT, from the other side you look like a "better candidate". I'm glad you are happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member NW Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Harry here is a pic from the "former King of Alleys".. Note I "do" like some natural recession and "do not" support low squared temples. But I needed "some" help !!!!!! NW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Mr T Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 HairyLemon, Looks good after only six months! From what I've read and the photos I've seen (like FutzyHead), it seems even better things may be in store in the coming weeks and months as the hairs mature and continue to grow in diameter. Best wishes, Mr. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member tkotko Posted May 12, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 12, 2003 Looks great Harrylemon! From looking at your before pics someone could tell me that was me and I'd believe it. We're very similar in hair color and degree of hairloss, so I'll be monitoring your progress for sure, and especially with the combo of FUE and strip, which seems very intriguing in the event I need (want) to go back for another dose. I hope I enjoy similar results at 6 mos. You mention you perform some scalp stretching exercises. For years (20) I've massaged my temples, forehead and back of my head for sake of controlling my hairloss and I'd swear it works cause the 2 periods I got lazy is when I noticed more hairloss. But anyway..what type of exercises do you do and where did you hear about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HarryLemon Posted May 13, 2003 Author Senior Member Share Posted May 13, 2003 Arfy & NW: Thanks to you both for your descriptions/diagrams on "power alleys", to say nothing for your sentiments & encouragements ??“ I REALLY appreciate that! I'm still mulling over bringing my right side down just a little (maybe 2-3mm), but more than anything I'm-a-hankerin' for the fill (a'la Wassup)! Mr T: Hey, I'm looking forward to YOUR results down the road! As far as future growth and increased diameter, etc., apparently I stand to gain another 30% in "fill-factor" over the next 6 months... Uhhhhhhh - BRING IT ON!!! tkotko: Thanks for kind words, tkotko... so you were blessed with the same landing-strip for a forehead as well, eh? Well, I'm sure that's going to be changing for the best soon! The exercise I mentioned is really just a strong-ish up and down rub along the back of the head that Dr Shapiro suggested I start doing now in the lead-up to HT #2, to help loosen the scalp a bit. I know what you mean about the message though ??“ hell I used to follow hearty neck and scalp messages with 10 minutes standing on my head twice a day when I lived back in London! Boy that was a blast ??“ NOT! Sad thing is though, it actually DOES work to an extent. The things we do for hair... I can't believe you've managed to keep it up for 20 years - that's incredible! And also smart - you've obviously gotten yourself into a real habit with it, which may be my best bet as well. What does your regimen consist of, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member tkotko Posted May 13, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted May 13, 2003 My routine is massaging my temples for a couple minutes, then massaging my "landing strip" for a couple minutes, then the very back of my lower head for a couple. Started this when I was 18 when I started noticing some hair loss, and those who would tease me passed me way up through the years. I got lazy the past year, year and a half or so and it seemed to accelerate a bit. So I'm convinced that it helped slow it down tremendously, but of course I can't prove it and win a Nobel prize or anything! Good luck with your continued progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now