Hard vs. Soft Hairline

[Gorpy]

I second that. Thanks rp1979. I look forward to seeing your progress.

[MrJobi]

Spot on !

 

Dr. Rose totally emphasized my point above.. Of course a N6 could get a "soft" hairline but my point is that when all the odds are against you i.e. coarse hair & N6. It is very challenging for any doctor to produce a natural hairline.. Especially with picky people like us on here haha .

 

Dr. Rose also touched on the concept I mentioned in another mail about taking finer hairs and using them in the front..I think if I was a doc , I would pluck a couple FUE's from the nape of the neck along with the strip to produce a superior hairline..

 

I am in the wrong business haha

[Jotronic]

Some interesting takes on what makes for a soft hairline and what makes for a hard hairline. Here's my .02 worth.

 

Hard hairlines. Offensively abrupt without singles properly spaced slightly in front of the bulk of the hairline. Linear, temple to temple with an almost "plug" type appearance. I see this in some hairlines even when all singles were supposedly used.

 

Soft hairlines. Careful placement of singles at varying degrees of distance in front of the bulk of the hairline. Staggered in such a way to break up any perception of linearity. Overall shape closer to a U or V. This can be done with coarse hair (narrow transition zone to avoid plugginess)or finer hair (can be narrow or somewhat wide) regardless of hair color to scalp color contrast ratio.

 

The notion of selecting finer hairs from patients that have overall coarse hair is foreign to me. Why? Because I have yet to see a result online or in person where finer hairs were selected and were obviously advantageous in the result. The notion of using fine hairs, to me, sounds great in theory but as yet has not been proven to be valid in practice.I've asked for consistent proof ( or even one example) and while several clinics speak of it as an option no one has provided examples. As far as I'm concerned this finer hair issue is as valid as HM ( as in not valid).

 

I personally feel that "soft" hairlines can indeed be achieved with coarser hair but not in the same way as those options available for finer haired patients. You see, when a patient has coarse hair it is counter productive to spread these out in the soft fashion that many of you have advocated. The result is one of plugginess. As I stated before, if a doctor places the finest trimmed single hair graft too far away from it's neighbors then it will stand out to everyone clear as day. Think about it. Those people that have naturally soft hairlines as has been described in other posts have recession and miniaturization due to the effects of MPB. I'm talking about the wide transition zones of, I think Nervous stated this, about 3cm. Look at the hairs in this region. They are finer because they are being affected by DHT. This cannot be done with the coarser haired patients with high hair color to scalp color contrast. These patients must have dense packing all the way up to the edge of the new hairline with a series of singles placed just in front, but not too far from, the main body of hairline work. There are specific ways to do this but they all vary from one another in ways specific to the respective case at hand. Gorpy's hairline works for him because he had the right characteristics to pull it off, fine hair, salt & pepper (more salt, sorry) and low hair color to scalp color contrast. Had the same placement been attempted on someone with exactly the same physical characteristics but with darker, coarser hair, the result would have been embarrassing.

 

Imagine Gorpy's placement on this patient...

 

 

See what I mean. This of course represents how all things are not equal to all people but you get the point. This patient instead received higher density but with proper recession built in so that he doesn't look like someone trying to be 18 again. This patient not only required higher density because of the texture and color of his hair and recipient scalp, he also needed it to match the density of his forelock. Note the front edge of the hairline and how it matches the density in the forelock area. While it is higher density the photo also represents what I mean by "softer" for coarse haired patients. There is a transition zone that is more narrow than what someone with finer hairs could get away with and it matches the frontal and increased density just behind the frontal edge. He looks like he's had some recession but he also looks like someone who's recession has stabilized. Just after I read the last post in this thread a couple of hours ago I walked past a guy that had this same type of hairline as I was heading to the corner market for some things for dinner. He didn't have a bunch of residual hairs struggling for survival anywhere in front of his hairline. It was slightly recessed in the corners but the density and overall health of the hairline hairs was really strong (yes I check this out all the time).

 

So, to conclude, I believe that while "soft" as some of you have defined is great for some patients it does not necessarily mean "more natural". Quite the contrary, some supposedly soft hairlines, with the wrong characteristics, simply should not have been attempted in the first place. Soft hairlines can have wide or narrow fields of blending if the target hairs are finer and lighter in color but soft hairlines can also be made with coarser and darker hairs but the soft "zone" needs to be more narrow and with higher density.

[NervousNelly]

Joe,

 

Great post and very informative. I understand your point and appreciate your detailed description.

 

I guess the one point I see where we differ slightly in opinion is that I never considered a "hard" hairline as necessarily a bad thing, but just a different approach for certain individuals that needed it to match their native hair or frame their face better. You tend to see it as somewhat synonomous with "pluggy". I do however have a preference to the look of a softer blended hairline.

 

Essentially what it appears you are saying is that all quality HT's are/should be considered to have a soft hairline but the approach or transition zone will vary. Is that accurate? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

 

I certainly do agree that a surgeon can not have the same approach with all candidates as hair color and texture in relation to skin color is a major variable.

 

Interesting topic.

 

NN

[Gorpy]

Here is an example of a patient that appears to have high contrast hair/scalp and relatively course hair, from Dr. Robert True. Notice he has a soft transition zone. It does not look "embarrassing" as you state. You might prefer one over the other. We all have opinions, but it is definitely not embarrassing.

 

 

I got this from here.

You can see his before pics there. He is on the first page.

 

Where's the salt?

[Jotronic]

Nervous,

 

You got it. I've heard the term "hard" used for hairlines many times and it was with a negative connotation. While I understand that this thread was not the case I still think of it as a negative description.

 

Every hairline we build we try to incorporate the proper amount of softness and as stated this transition zone will vary depending on several factors. It may be wide, it may be narrow but the final result is tailored to that patient. Being able to recognize where and when the varying transition zones are appropriate is a true art and one that not many patients understand but hopefully I've helped to educate some of you on this. The wide transition zones are obvious, the narrow ones become obvious when you think about the specific case and what that patient brought to the table. The artist can only work with what he is given as tools so the masterpiece today will be very different than the masterpiece from yesterday but a masterpiece nonetheless.

[Gorpy]

That's true Joe, hard might carry a negative connotation. It was not meant to.

 

Here's another example of a soft hairline with significant transition by Dr. Robert True. Some people would not like the see through look at the front. Others would.

 

[Aquarius]

Jotronic -

That was thought and informative to say the least. I bet you could walk down a line of canditates and say yes or no within minutes.Well done.

Gorpy ; I am with you , but that photo sucks and even with the silk stocking True put over the lense it looks well kinda ...pluggy.

I would also be willing to bet his before pic was better.

[Jotronic]

Aquarius,

 

I have to admit, you can be a funny SOB sometimes. Silk stocking... I laughed out loud. I was about to reference the blur so good eye.

 

Gorpy,

 

I want to make sure we are understanding each other. My argument is that dark coarse hair cannot be used to make a hairline that is very low density in any capacity especially if we are to use your frontal hairline as an example. As I stated, it worked well for you because of your characteristics. Can you imagine your placement however on the patient I posted? It would look bad even though his single hair grafts were most likely inserted into .6mm or .65mm incisions.

 

I'll briefly address the examples you posted.

 

First patient firstly had a forelock that was incorporated into the new hairline. Placement was behind the forelock. On top of that, although I can spot a few details worthy of discussion, this is not a healthy example of anything really due to the stocking-on-lens effect so graciously referenced by Aquarius. It's a bit too blurry. Below I have shown where the forelock is integrated. As an exercise, everyone should look to either side of the hairline and see what you can spot even with the blur factor considered. You don't necessarily have to post what you see but do think about it.

 

 

 

The second patient, well, we don't have his before pic for one but at the same time it is not that important because the patient does not mirror the subject matter of discussion. His hair is brown, does not appear to be coarse and he has a bit of color to his skin thus reducing the hair/scalp contrast.

 

Good discussion guys.

[Gorpy]

Like I said, we all have our opinions. I don't see the plugginess that you do.

 

Aqu - sorry, I don't have access to a vast resource of pictures. I just try to quickly search for something.

[Gorpy]

I want to make sure we are understanding each other. My argument is that dark coarse hair cannot be used to make a hairline that is very low density in any capacity especially if we are to use your frontal hairline as an example. As I stated, it worked well for you because of your characteristics. Can you imagine your placement however on the patient I posted? It would look bad even though his single hair grafts were most likely inserted into .6mm or .65mm incisions.

[Gorpy]

Joe, so what if my specific placement would not look as good on a high contrast course haired person? What's your point? Do you think Dr. Keene does cookie cutter hairlines. That's the real implication here.

 

Surgery and building of a natural hairline is unique to each individual. Certain doctors have certain styles. It does not mean that they don't vary their approach on a case by case basis.

 

As I stated before, a high contrast hairline can still be made softer (but not as soft as mine), than some doctor are currently doing it.

[Jotronic]

Gorpy,

 

Relax, your result was being used since you inserted yourself as an example. Nowhere was your doctor or any reference to "cookie cutter" implied much less stated.

 

"Sometimes new patients can get carried away with density numbers. I have what is called a "soft" or "fading" hairline. I like it and prefer it over a hard hairline. Prospective patients should understand what a soft hairline looks like."

 

Your first post quoted above indicates that a softer hairline should have a wider transition zone from low density to high density like yours has. This is well done for your case. My efforts have been to isolate when this is a appropriate and to educate about not only when this approach is not appropriate but what is appropriate in it's place when presented with different characteristics. Coarser hair can make for soft hairlines but with a different approach, namely a more narrow transition zone and with minute details that are another subject altogether. I know it all comes down to personal taste but I feel confident that my position is valid. This has nothing to do with one clinic over another so please do not confuse my intent. It would be a far stretch for me to imply that every patient of your doctor has a 5.5 cm hairline, etc., etc.

[Gorpy]

I said the following earlier and I am confident that my position is valid:

 

"The bottom line and point of this thread is that there is a difference between a soft feathered hairline and a hard hairline. I think that even with courser hair, a hairline can be made do look softer with the proper artistry. Maybe not as soft as mine, but nevertheless, softer."

 

My point being "softer" - not as soft as mine.

 

You stated that desire has nothing to do with it (making a soft hairline). I still disagree with that statement. I see many clinics doing excessively hard hairlines. Why? Because they want to. They like them that way. That's fine. That's their style. I personally don't like them. I'm sure many people do.

 

Your clinic was never mentioned in this thread. It wasn't meant to be directed towards you. It was a general statement.

 

Somehow I knew I would be seeing some H&W photos when I started the thread

[Jotronic]

And at the same time many clinics try to pull off a softer hairline and fail miserably. That is my point. Just because someone desires to do something does not mean they are be able to. I'd like to go to the moon but unfortunately I cannot. I have neither the education or the funds. If desire was the only requisite then there would be no need for the Coalition as any clinic in the world that has desire would be cranking out work just as good as the next guy. I think you'd agree that this is not the case.

 

And I know my clinic was not mentioned in any context. I used our photos because I know what was done and how. Not to mention I have access to close ups that are sharp and clear. I do not have this luxury with photos from other clinics.

 

So, with that, we're good. Let's stay on topic now.

 

To recap, soft hairlines can be achieved for patients with vastly different hair characteristics. The design of the hairline must take these characteristics into account ( I know, DUH). Finer hairs with less contrast to the scalp can have wider transition zones with less density to achieve the desired result. Coarse hair can still have a soft look but with a more narrow transition zone. Ironically, the placement in this transition zone is actually still at higher densities. The placement however is different than the rest of the frontal hairline to give the appearance of softness. It is an illusion in fact and works wonderfully when performed correctly.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I know I'm a little late...but...

 

Without being too wordy (which I have a tendency to be), here is my view in a nutshell,

 

Hard Hairline - Harsh wall of hair which may or may not contain FUs other than singles in the hairline - typically there is very little feathering effect and typically more obvious in completely straight or only slightly dipped hairlines.

 

Soft Hairline - A feathering blend starting with single FUs moving back into multi-haired FUs. What helps create this appearance, IMO, is placing the hairline in an irregular or jagged pattern rather than a completely straight line.

 

IMO, the goal should always be a softer hairline because it's much more natural.

 

Bill

[Gorpy]

Hey, I think for the most part we are in agreement there Joe.

 

At the same time, I think there are successful approaches that don't exactly fall in line with the H&W way (there's more than one way to do it).

 

If Dr. Rose says he can find fine hairs and excel at using them in the hairline, I believe him. I have heard this off and on from other doctors. It seems valid. I have some very fine hairs in my hairline that are much finer than hairs in other parts. I don't really know if they were placed there on purpose. Maybe they were. I do know that the hair on the side of my head tends to be finer. That doesn't mean it's miniturizing, it just means it's finer by nature. Wouldn't it stand to reason that it could be used in the hairline more than hair from the back of my head? Couldn't this phenomenon also occur with someone with courser hair?

[Jotronic]

Gorpy,

 

Glad we're mostly on the same page. My question now though is this; if you (or anyone) has heard of placing finer hairs in the hairline why haven't we seen these results? Your hairs may be finer, maybe not but I think that if this were something that was attainable on a consistent basis then it would be news big enough to hear about specifically with lots of evidence to back it up. I know that if we found a way to do it we'd do so with various micrometer measurements shown via video.

 

People can believe what they want on this issue. To me, I prefer to have solid evidence than just hearsay or sound bites from various clinics so I'll continue to ask for actual evidence. I think too many time patients are told something by this clinic or that and they simply accept it at face value. This is not pointed toward anyone in particular, it is just something that most people will accept.

 

With regards to those finer hairs on the side of your scalp, I think that this is a good point however this area also used to be more plentiful in actual numbers and most likely your doctor did not take grafts from this area. I'm talking about the finer hairs lower down on either side. We find that even on the sides where hairs can be finer there is usually a band of stronger hairs higher up. That is why our "long" strips take on a more diagonal or vertical direction as the incision comes around to the sides. Your case may be different (as some are) so of course my rationale may not apply so I am speaking with generalities.

 

Good discussion.

[scooping around]

Gorpy, since we went to the same doctor, I can definitly see the similarities between our hairline even though I'm a "high contrast" with coarse straight hair. I noticed that most of my new hairline are hairs much finer and thinner than the hairs behind it, and I strongly believe that Dr. Keene did it on purpose, but I do not know how it was done because I was asleep. I do see Jotronic's point of view that softer hairline can look exceptionally natural on someone like yourself, but not so on someone like me. Like you mentioned in my other thread, it will be interesting to see how Dr. Keene's technique turns out with my hair characteristics.

[John_in_NC]

amazing how much time Joe spends to attack others instead of talking to the doctors and ask them to change. Maybe do a few hundred grafts less and spend that time in the hairline.

 

No offense, but most of your best cases touted here are harsh looking ones. Gorpy's hairline is amazing and that's because the doctor paid special attention to it.

[Jotronic]

John,

 

What is amazing to me is that you are the only one that is actually making an attack. Everyone else here is just fine but I'm the bad guy for sharing my opinion. Sorry, comrade.

 

Instead of taking cheap shots, John. Dispute one thing I've said in this thread. Care to find a nape hair hairline result for me? How about a hairline like Gorpy's fine result with coarse black hair? Be fair, now. Try to use clear photos with no flash and do please try to make it a closeup like I did. Detail is your friend.

 

Perhaps you have a better idea of how the hairlines should have been done on the patients I posted here? Should we have used body hair? Perhaps eyebrow hair? I'm serious, John. Where am I wrong? Discussion is what this site is about so let's discuss.

[Aquarius]

John, where have you been, on vacation?

Glad to see you back !

Review this one, JTron might be the best/worst of both worlds.

I'm thinking we have him on our side.

His post have no dreamseller going on as a matter of fact I was even peaked.

[John_in_NC]

semantics. they are plenty of ways of attacking people joe, so let's not get cute. As far as nape of neck hair or whatever: I can point at MUCH better hairlines (undetectable is the keyword) so why don't you ask those doctors how they did it? Maybe they just selected the thinner hair from the same strip as supposed to just putting any size graft in front. Of course that would require a few more minutes of work...

 

Hi Aquarius,

just been checking but not posting. The reason Joe et al are required to post their affiliation is clear: they have a vested interest. A clear one too. I have no problems with him at all, just when he is ridiculing others and trying to defend their technique at any cost, that goes too far.

Their hairlines for the most parts are DETECTABLE and that is the truth.

 

Originally posted by Jotronic:

John,

 

What is amazing to me is that you are the only one that is actually making an attack. Everyone else here is just fine but I'm the bad guy for sharing my opinion. Sorry, comrade.

 

Instead of taking cheap shots, John. Dispute one thing I've said in this thread. Care to find a nape hair hairline result for me? How about a hairline like Gorpy's fine result with coarse black hair? Be fair, now. Try to use clear photos with no flash and do please try to make it a closeup like I did. Detail is your friend.

 

Perhaps you have a better idea of how the hairlines should have been done on the patients I posted here? Should we have used body hair? Perhaps eyebrow hair? I'm serious, John. Where am I wrong? Discussion is what this site is about so let's discuss.

[NervousNelly]

Oh shit!

[Jotronic]

Semantics? Right. I guess that is the word to use when you come out swinging but keep missing the ball. In this case, the ball hasn't even been pitched to you. Good grief.

 

I'm still waiting for your counter points. Are you going to present them are are you going to continue with the easy "you're a salesman" rebuttals that don't really make any point aside from the fact that you don't have a point? Just so yo don't forget, I'm asking for nape hair hairlines, coarse hair with low density hairlines, and of course close up examples with clear photos and no flash.