Hard vs. Soft Hairline

[Jotronic]

Oh, and if you're so great in person then buy me a beer to prove it

[Aquarius]

Yes I fully agree on the other points that you have made on contrast hair/skin and hair quality ect.

[MrJobi]

For the record , I think his hairline is fine.

[Gorpy]

Well, get ready to eat you hat then Joe, because you are wrong and I'll prove it later tonight when I have time. Fortunately and unfortunately for me I have lots of markings on my weathered face that I can use as a reference point.

 

I'll give you guys a clue in case you're interested. Besides the rogue hair which Joe completely ignored, there is another clear marking on my face that has to do with living in the South West.

 

BTW - my hairline is 5.5 cm above my eyebrows.

[Gorpy]

Ok, I said I would supply proof that my pictures and the lines drawn are accurate so hear they are. Joe's has drawn the lines inaccurately for some reason. Frankly I'm surprised he would make those camera angle mistakes, as much as he works with pictures. Using the ear as a marker is totally inaccurate based on camera angles (as Aquarius point out). The TRUE indicator of my new and old hairline positions is indicated CLEARLY by markers on my head CLOSE to the hairline! No weird camera angle distortion, just plain old fact.

 

Notice the rogue hair in each picture which I have indicated. It's there from before my transplant and is still there afterwards. This is important because it is right next to my hairline.

 

Now for my clue about living in the South West. I grew up in the Southwest. The sun exposure unfortunately left what I'll call a permanent "ridge of discoloration" on my head that is clearly visible to this day. I have marked just below it (about 1cm below it)in both pictures. You can see that it is an indicator of where my original youthful hairline was. It curves down to form a widows peak, then curves back up on the other side.

 

Let's use that along with the rogue hair as indicators of where my hair line was/is. After all they are RIGHT there next to it! Note that the rogue hair is approx. .5 cm above the "ridge of discoloration". Look at it in the before picture in relation to my hairline. Now look at it in the after picture in relation to my hairline. Wow! My hairline was brought WAY down into bald skin area.

 

This is proof fellas.

 

So, in conclusion - I don't know where you get off Joe, telling me where my hairline was placed in relation to my original. Do you F*ing think I don't know? That's bizarre behavior Joe.

 

I'm a nice guy Joe. I'll let you put a little mustard on the hat.

 

 

 

 

Oh and for the record:

[bezane]

All in all guys. Soft verse hard hairlines. Points well made. If HTs always looked like the one in Gorp's photo there wouldn't be forums like this. Excellent work. And if the only ones that could spot that in the world, are like one or two freakish savants that work for great surgeons, then, let's hope we never run into them at a party.

 

Like be serious here. A great surgeon should be able to customize based on the patient. No question. A better point to be made, and most likely the bigger point Gorp was making, is client expectation. Give the doctor a break. There are no "miracles" unless a surgeon makes one. A great looking healthy head of "receding" hair beats the hell out of planting a severe line of hair across your brow and filling it in.

 

And the point with the diagrams and photos and the question of "native hair" or "no native hair." I'm voting for "native hair." It sounds better and I'm sure if you keep looking there's some still sprouting there, for sure.

[Jotronic]

Bezane,

 

"And the point with the diagrams and photos and the question of "native hair" or "no native hair." I'm voting for "native hair." It sounds better and I'm sure if you keep looking there's some still sprouting there, for sure."

 

And that one my point to begin with (one of many). 5.5cm or 10cm is irrelevant. There is native hair there. Gorpy even said so himself and yes even a few makes a big difference.

 

Gorpy,

 

Again with the F-bombs. Can you have a calm debate at all? I'm not being the antagonizer here. I'm simply pointing out what I see. As far as the photos I posted, they were all I had to go on and I said that I could be wrong. Stop with the F-bombs. You're an adult.

 

And as far as the 5.5cm goes, I'll give and say at best it's close. I say "close" because your ruler is not where I would have put it. Your density up front is so low it's up for grabs where you or I or anyone would say the hairline starts. But it is close enough.

[Jotronic]

Bezane,

 

"And the point with the diagrams and photos and the question of "native hair" or "no native hair." I'm voting for "native hair." It sounds better and I'm sure if you keep looking there's some still sprouting there, for sure."

 

And that one my point to begin with (one of many). 5.5cm or 10cm is irrelevant. There is native hair there. Gorpy even said so himself and yes even a few makes a big difference.

 

Gorpy,

 

Again with the F-bombs. Can you have a calm debate at all? I'm not being the antagonizer here. I'm simply pointing out what I see. As far as the photos I posted, they were all I had to go on and I said that I could be wrong. Stop with the F-bombs. You're an adult.

 

And as far as the 5.5cm goes, I'll give and say at best it's close. I say "close" because your ruler is not where I would have put it. Your density up front is so low it's up for grabs where you or I or anyone would say the hairline starts. But it is close enough.

 

[Gorpy]

Sorry about the F-bomb. You have a way of pissing me off Joe. I don't take it lightly when someone challenges me on something so simple as my hairline placement. I'm not trying to deceive anyone and I know where my hairline was placed.

 

As far as being 5.5 cm above my eyebrows - well, yes, the thin part of the widows peak is about that. But that thin area is part of what makes it natural looking. It's all part of the hairline.

 

BTW - I don't consider myself as having salt and pepper hair. I don't really have any grey in the transplanted area. The only grey I have is in the temples. My hair is light brown all over the top.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I have no real interest in getting heavily involved in this debate...but I'll point out a few things...

 

1. I like Gorpy's hairline. I think it looks very natural. Right now the hair behind it lacks a little density, but he's only at 5 months from his second HT. It is way too early to see the final result.

 

2. It looks pretty obvious to me that his hairline is very close to 5.5 cm above his eyebrows. After all...why not? I just measured mine and it's close to around 5 cm, give or take .2 cm.

 

3. I appreciate what Joe was trying to do with the side by side pictures, but I'm not sure this is 100% fair. The pictures look very similar...but who seriously takes a picture at the EXACT same angle and distance on two different days?

 

4. From what I see in Gorpy's before pictures, I do not see any native hair low enough to be close to 5.5 cm. Of course, this is only by looking at the pictures...clearly we don't have measurements to prove it. So I'm stating this as my opinion.

 

5. I think these kinds of debates are actually very good...I'd just like to see it stay respectful.

 

6. Joe...freaking hilarious picture dude! But I don't see the mustard?

 

7. I think we should ALL get together and I'll buy you all a round of beers! As for me...I'll stick to my ROOT beer!

 

Bill

[Gorpy]

BTW - where I placed the ruler is exactly where I placed the line in my original new hairline picture.

[Jotronic]

Gorpy,

 

I wasn't challenging the height issue with any implication of deception. I don't see where you think that but regardless, it was not the case. If I see something that I have questions about, I'll post the question and my reasoning for what I think. I know the pictures I posted were not perfect but they were pretty close but even then they were all that I had to work with since they were all you posted.

 

The initial post in this thread had to do with what makes for a soft and feathered hairline. Several ideas were put forth with various theories. I jumped in to clarify with the facts. They still stand.

 

Soft feathered hairlines are best achieved when the patient has fine textured hair, salt & pepper, light brown or blond in color, and fair skin. More softness is achieved when native hair can be incorporated into the new hairline as the front row soldiers. Low density can be used (to a degree) without grafts being noticeable.

 

Soft hairlines can NOT be achieved with the same philosophy for placement if the patient has thick coarse hair that is dark brown or black and fair or pale skin. No one has or can show me a photo that is clear where this was done successfully. There is one clinic that claims they can pull this off but they do not in reality. EVERY single photo they have ever posted (this is not an exaggeration) has the patient in the before photo with a strong remnant of their native hairline. The hair is also wet to imply more severe hair loss. The after photo shows the final result as being full, lustrous and simply amazing for a small session (usually about 2000 to 3000 grafts). The hair is of course dry but the hairline is unchanged in height. All of the grafts are behind the hairline yet they comb the hairline back as if it was a man made creation. This is not just wrong it is downright criminal.

 

Anyway, my corrections are valid.

 

Here is an example below from a patient that came in today after one year from his procedure. He had higher density but it is hardly a harsh wall of hair. If he had low density then he'd probably look like he could use another hair transplant. He doesn't. If anyone thinks that this is a harsh wall of hair though then perhaps you should reconsider having a hair transplant to begin with.

 

[Gorpy]

Ok, Joe, no hard feelings. I was a little over sensitive.

 

I think you were more than a little off. It was more like 2 cm off, which is a country mile in terms of hairlines. But anyway, who's counting?

 

Yes those are some soft looking hairlines you posted.

[NervousNelly]

Its so much fun watching the 2 of you guys go at it sometimes. Both of you are quite knowledgeable and make very valid points. Its kind of like a sparing match with each getting in a couple good jabs and then the "accidental" knockout attempt that isn't suppose to happen when sparring. It's nice how you always seem to kiss and make up. I really think you 2 need to meet in person sometime and buy each other a beer. You'll likely end up best of friends.

 

I digress.... A hockey game I played in had the most brutal fight I have witnessed while playing the sport. Two big suckers beat the shit out of each other and there was blood and every profanity any sailor could muster up. A couple of teeth hit the ice and stitches were needed. After the game while in the locker room the other player came storming in and was looking for "number 5". As blood smeared across his forhead he headed towards our #5 who was ready to defend himself again. Then suddenly out came the handshake and a beer and the player stated "best fight I've ever been in. You're one hell of a tough SOB." The 2 of them sat drinking a beer and bullshitted about the game. Best thing I've ever witnessed in sport. Leave it on the ice/field.

 

Sorry, thought some might appreciate that story. Anyways, Gorpy your hairline is awesome. Joe, you know your shit.

 

I agree with Joe in that Gorpy has the features and characteristics that allow for the soft hairline to be pulled off to perfection. However, whenever possible it is my belief that this type of hairline should always be the preference of surgeons. It is the most natural and will undoubtedly remain age appropriate in the future.

 

Another topic I will digress on is that of density. There is so much talk of density and I understand the importance and the preference of most, but what is wrong with the soft, thinner look as long as it is natural. It is certainly better than being bald and will remain age appropriate always. Joe, you would know the answer to this...Is it more challenging for a physician to achieve a thinning and receeding look for an individual and still remain natural looking? It would be my guess that this type of HT would invole more creativity and artistry but maybe I am wrong. I understand that once again there are several factors involved and it is going to be different based on hair charactistics, skin color, etc.

 

Long post and I apologize but couldn't sleep and just felt like typing my thoughts.

 

NN

 

P.S. Joe-Was Gorpy attached to that hat??

[Guest]

I think Joe has a hard time believing that clinics other than H&W can turn out excellent results.

I do like the hat pic, Joe don't need it anyway!

[Gorpy]

Glad I could offer some entertainment value

 

Let's clarify something: A soft thinning look you mention NN, is not necessarily how I would describe a soft, feathered hairline. What I mean is, it's only the beginning and then it increases into good density behind. You guys mention that it looks age appropriate for me etc., but personally I think it would look good on a 30 year old, as long as there is non see-through density behind it. See what I mean?

 

Now, let's talk about the artistry involved. When we were talking about "stick and place" which is a term I probably should not have used, we were talking about a doctor who spends a good hour or more in the final stages of the transplant to refine the hairline. It's not a matter of a sticking a few hairs there. There is a huge effort required involving potentially hundreds of hairs. I remember Dr. Keene spending that amount of time just on my hairline. She would place some, then step back, take a look, place some more... on and on. It took a long time, but I just sat there, happy as a clam because I appreciated the work.

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

I also think it is hard to generalize due to the factors involved.. Someone with coarse hair & a Norwood 6 profile would make it quite difficult to deliver a natural hairline regrdless of the doctor.. H & W or Shapiro or whoever does not own exclusive technology on hair transplantation.. There is artistry involved but we must compare apples to apples which can be difficult when dealing with human differences

 

Let's face it, There are 10 or more doctors on here who can deliver superior results, none better than the other.. One style is different than the other and more does not always equate to better as hairloss can be progressive.

[Gorpy]

Hmmm... interesting point, BUT just because you're a NW-6 doesn't mean that you can't get a natural looking feathered hairline. In fact, a NW-6 needs it more than me. Putting a hard line of hair on a highly placed hairline is mistake in my opinion.

[NervousNelly]

Gorpy,

 

Sorry for the confusion. I do in fact understand what it is that you are talking about with a soft feathered hairline. I am aware that there is a difference to that of a "thinning" look. Yes I agree with you that your hair would look great on a thirty year old.

 

I was trying to bring up also the idea of a thinning look and why it does not get more attention. Sorry as I should have started a separate thread so that there was no confusion between the 2 styles.

 

NN

[Gorpy]

No problem NN. I understand now.

[Jotronic]

I think we should try to narrow down what a hard hairline vs. a soft hairline is. Anyone care to chime in? Looking at Gorpy's photos is one thing but I'd like some of you to define each in text.

[Gorpy]

That's a good point Joe, but I think it might be a little hard to describe. It's one of those things, where you know it when you see it. Maybe someone else can try to put it in words.

[NervousNelly]

Okay I will give it a try.

 

1. Hard Hairline--one that has little transition in density in frontal 3 cm. No rogue hairs. Typically more of a straighter line pattern as opposed to a V shape. Has appearance of more of a "wall of hair".

Ex. NicNitro

 

2. Soft Hairline--one that has an obvious transition of density from starting point back into the first 3 cm. Might have rogue hairs. typically more of a V shaped pattern as opposed to a straighter line. Appears as a gradual increase in density as opposed to a wall of hair.

Ex. Gorpy

 

Both are superior quality examples of excellent HT's with a different approach to the hairline to suit the need of the patients characteristics, hair texture, donor supply, etc.

 

As stated by Gorpy, sometimes it is just something you see and is hard to describe but I gave it a shot.

[rp1979]

Do you think soft hairline and hard hairline are antonyms and thus defining one will define the other?

 

Perhaps the definition of soft hairline should include the phrase:

 

"gradual transition from finer single hair to thicker single hair"

 

I for one have very coarse hair. When I did a consultation with Dr. Paul Rose, this is what he wrote to me in an email on March 5th 2007:

 

"You noted that you have coarse hair and this has positive and negative aspects relative to the procedure. Coarse hair provide more coverage per hair. On the other hand the surgeon must be careful to pick out the finer hairs that can be used in the most beneficial aesthetic way at the very front and temporal areas. This is something I believe that we excel at."

[NervousNelly]

Great addition rp1979

 

NN