A challenge to apparent side-effect free users of finasteride.

[Matt Skiba]

I tried to get Bill to do this but he refused, oh well.

 

What I'm trying to get at is an objective view of what is going on within the body of someone while on finasteride, the truth is more than just DHT gets affected. I'm trying to see if there are some negative effects that the finasteride user may not be aware of, but could possibly show its ugly head sometime in the future.

 

What I am looking for is levels of the following:

 

Total Testosterone

Free (Bioavailable) Testosterone

DHT

Estradiol (E2)

Estrone (E1)

Total Estrogens

LH

FSH

DHEA-s

Cortisol

SHBG

Prolactin

Progesterone

Albumin

ACTH

PSA

Aldosterone

Androstenediol glucuronide (Adiol-G) -- measures 5AR activity

Androsterone glucuronide

TSH, Free T3, Free T4

CBC or FBC (Complete Blood Count/Full Blood Count)

LFT (Liver Function Test - AST, ALT, etc.)

 

Also include age, weight, height, and how long you've been on finasteride, along with other possible meds you might be taking.

 

Unfortunately many doctors will refuse to order these tests for you unless they specialize in hormones such as an endocrinologist, so you may have to find an independent medical lab to do it within your area. You can also do it over the internet via mail correspondence, I hear Quest is a good company for this. If you gave good insurance it may end up costing you about 50-60 bucks. In the end it will benefit you by giving you a good view of your overall health status.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Matt,

 

Your view of finasteride is already biased which is obvious by many of your posts. So are you really looking for objective data or fuel to increase the size of your fire?

 

Though I'm not debating that it's possible that other hormones, etc are impacted in the body by taking finasteride (I can't be sure in one way or the other) - I think you'll find that the use of herbal treatments will also affect other hormones, etc as well.

 

Besides, if somebody were to do what you asked, they would have to have these tests done BEFORE taking finasteride AND then several months after. Doing a test for these levels while strictly on finasteride won't do any good - because levels may be higher or lower based on other factors.

 

Keep in mind that many herbal treatments have potential side effects also and that these herbal treatments are often studied by drug companies as well. "Herbal" and "Natural" does not equate to "good for the body" despite what is believed by the general public. There is also no governing force that controls recommended dosage on herbal medications.

 

Good luck!

 

Bill

[Matt Skiba]

I do agree with you that if one were to have a blood test done before taking finasteride it would be more reliable, but the fact remains that there are given ranges for hormone levels and there are supposed optimal levels within these ranges. It would be possible to notice subtleties and prove that a mechanism is at play.

 

As for herbs, the general opinion is that they don't have anywhere near the potential negativities that synthetically engineered drugs do. Tobacco is a good example of a herb with negative properties. All in all though this is irrelevant to this post.

 

My bias doesn't stem only from experience, I've read quite a few endocrinology and other legitimate medical papers to support what I say.

 

If more than one person contributes to this post with results it will make it much more reliable, but I'll feel lucky only to have one post.

 

All in all I am in all honesty looking for some objective data and possible correlations.

[MrJobi]

"All in all I am in all honesty looking for some objective data and possible correlations."

 

I admire Matt's passion towards the Propecia knocking but again, correclation does not equal causation.We have people on here claiming all sorts of things causing hairloss and / or side effects from drugs. In addition, as I have said before look up possible side effects on any drug or additive on the net (pot,saw palmetto,sugar, or anti depressants).. I always like to use diet coke as an example because it is so widely used.

 

I would partly discagree with Matt's statement of herb being somewhat safe as ANYthing you put in your body can have side effects. Guanara is a good example. Do a search on this natural herb and its side effects. They can be toxic.

[finnari]

you should look into global warming with the same zest.

[hairdude83]

Random question about Propecia tablets.. People who take these tablets see any side effects while taking this medicne? Or is they really low chances of gettin side effects. holla

[MrJobi]

The studies indicate less than 5 %

[Al - Moderator]

Originally posted by Mrjb:

The studies indicate less than 5 %

 

I personally feel it's closer to around 20%. I have nothing to back that up. i just seem to see a lot more than a small percentage saying they had at least some mild side effects. maybe I'm wrong.It's just my personal feelings. Count me as one who has some minor libido side effects. Taking lower dose than recommended stops the side effects in me without reducing the good effects much.

[Guest]

Matt, I can provide you with the results of my most recent blood work-up.

 

Before I do that, I'll tell you that I used Propecia everyday from January '99 to December 2006. Since then I've switched to Avodart at .5mg/day (10 months).

 

Without going into actual detail and listing actual numbers I'll simply tell you that I had the following tests done and all came back within the normal range.

 

Testosterone (both)

Cortisol

PSA

TSH

CBC

 

I'm 42, stand about 5'11", 185lbs, exercise 5 times per week and no other meds or supplements used.

[The Goz]

The following is directly from the propecia insert from the clinical trials performed:

 

Drug Related Adverse Experience for Propecia in year 1

 

Propecia n=945 placebo n=934

 

Decreased Libido 1.8% 1.3%

Erectile Dysfunction 1.3% 0.7%

Ejaculation Disorder 1.2% 0.7%

(decreased volume of ejaculate) 0.8% 0.7%

Discontinued due to drug related 1.2% 0.9%

sexual adverse experiences

 

The other thing to know is that if you are having a PSA test done by your doctor they need to know that you are on finasteride, either the 1 MG or splitting the proscar 5 MG as it may reduce levels of PSA serum and needs to be taken into account.

 

For Proscar 5MG:

 

Year 1 Years 2-3-4

Proscar Placebo Proscar Placebo

Impotence 8.1% 3.7% 5.1% 5.1%

Decreased Libido 6.4% 3.4% 2.6% 2.6%

Decreased ejaculate 3.7% 0.8% 1.5% 0.5%

Ejaculation Disorder 0.8% 0.1% 0.2% 0.1%

Breast enlargement 0.5% 0.1% 1.8% 1.1%

Breast Tenderness 0.4% 0.1% 0.7% 0.3%

Rash 0.5% 0.2% 0.5% 0.1%

 

There is also a lot of information (mostly negative - possitive reduction in PSA serum levels with proscar) on drug/laboratory test interactions on the paper.

 

Hope this helps

[Matt Skiba]

Originally posted by Not so bad:

Matt, I can provide you with the results of my most recent blood work-up.

 

Before I do that, I'll tell you that I used Propecia everyday from January '99 to December 2006. Since then I've switched to Avodart at .5mg/day (10 months).

 

Without going into actual detail and listing actual numbers I'll simply tell you that I had the following tests done and all came back within the normal range.

 

Testosterone (both)

Cortisol

PSA

TSH

CBC

 

I'm 42, stand about 5'11", 185lbs, exercise 5 times per week and no other meds or supplements used.

 

The truth is the reference range for "normal" is for men anywhere between the ages of 18-80, so you very well could be within the reference range yet have a level that is somewhat low, it's a faulty system, and I think Denmark or something like that is the only country that's actually begun implementing reference ranges according to age. Perhaps you could send me the numbers via a private message? You don't have to but I would highly appreciate it, all I want to see is the testosterone levels.

 

Also it's a shame you didn't get estradiol or other estrogens tested, I have a belief that finasteride increases levels of estrogen in all men, regardless of whether you can feel it or not. This is the reason for something like 90% of the side effects experienced by men, as more testosterone is produced in the body while on fin, but the excess testosterone gets converted to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme, for me and a few others the testosterone unexplainably plummeted after ceasing the drug though. Progesterone would also be a nice result to see, as I believe that progesterone also gets raised, once again, whether you can feel it or not, since 5-alpha reductase does have a role in converting progesterone to something else, an increased level of circulating progesterone results in an increased number of estrogen receptors within the body, this is something that is not desired. Check out the following link...

 

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/288/2/679

 

As for side effects statistics, take this into mind: Merck suggests as do many on this forum recommend, that side effects go away with continued use of finasteride. This statement is false according to Merck's own numbers, as the following link shows this:

 

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/urology/archive/1620.html

 

I'm still happy I got anything, but I think I might have to see if anyone is willing to submit results in other forums, the guys over there seem to be younger too, they actually recognized the origins of my nick and avatar.