AndrewYoung

I haven't heard anyone talk about the other side effect....lack of morning wood. I think we should be responsible enough to discuss why it does that and what are the ramifications there. Also, finesteride-ridden semen causes birth defects. That can't be good, can it? I am on the meds now but how long? I am not sure. I understand that coming off them might mean more loss and perhaps the need for an additional future HT. But I've often wondered if another 5 or 7 grand isn't worth being done with it in the future and not taking any more meds. Plus, I'd like my morning wood back!

Forgive me if I said unethical. I guess I mean to say I think it is a bad business practice. The bank in AZ opened later? I worked for a not so large bank and we had a 24 hour number anyone could call to get their limit increased. Perhaps he needs to find a new card issuer. Banks will not guarantee funds but they will verify funds. Also, have you heard of remote capture? You can now deposit your checks without going to the bank. With Check 21 in place, it is pretty damn fast in clearing these days. Again, I apologize if I said it was unethical. I believe I said bad business practices are a reflection of the persons ethics. I should have said CAN be a reflection. It's just that, from my experience in the business world and banking, I see flags among business owners. Those that held to outdated policies and tried to justify it by blaming "the system" also TENDED to also be those that had some other problems in their business (or were just flat out fraudulent). I am not saying that about the Doc. I am simply saying that has been my experience. I simply wouldn't do business with someone that required a prepay for services yet to be completed and I think the good Doc could be losing some income as a result. Of course, it's her decision.

Tell me, how many independent docs are out there? How many of those do suppose are quacks?How much do you suppose they combined spend in marketing? I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are bad docs but just because someone is part of MHR or Bosley, that does not a quack doc make. The statement about how much they spend in marketing is true. But are any of you running a company? I am and I can tell you that a good portion of my budget is related to marketing. Sometimes it works, other times it isn't so successful. Franchisees combine their marketing dollars to create economies of scale. That is why many successful business people align themselves with McDs, Wendy's etc. They could go out and open Joe's burgers but they wouldn't have the marketing muscle the big boys have. There are bad Wendys and good Wendys. Joe could have a better burger or he could have a worse burger. But Joe can't get his message out to the same number of people for the same dollars. All I am saying is let's focus on the good docs, the bad docs and leave the rest alone until someone can prove one way or the other. Let's focus on Joe, the franchisee of the Wendy's and not Wendy's. I do get offended because I feel I got a good doc and, yes, she is an MHR member. It just burns me a bit when people make blanket statements just because they are from one of these franchises.

I went to an MHR doc (Pauls in Denver) and I am feeling pretty good about my HT. I wish this board would get off who is affiliated with what and just focus in on what docs are good and which ones people should avoid. I don't know anything about Mollura but let me ask this... How can you tell from a few photos at five months that it's all done yet? Give it some time. I do agree with B Spot, Ringo has more hair loss than I had and he only had half the grafts I received. He'll probably need another if he really wants a good final look. Still, this doesn't look bad considering where he started. Still 1,700 isn't maxing out any single session these days. I'd be curious why they couldn't get more than 1700 this time around. Shouldn't ever doc ask what are your expectations? More coverage or more density. I undertand that the doc should give some guidance. If Pauls would have told me I'd only be able to get around 1,700, I would have went for crown work and some fill in under the top. Perhaps Ringo wanted coverage.

I had over just over 3,500 grafts placed in one day. I went in at 8 and came out at around 5:45. Personally, there were times during the day where I almost fell asleep. Now I am a baby when it comes to pain threshold, but I could have gone another few hours if need be. I would much prefer that than two days. I would think the risks of putting an anesthetic in two days in a row would be greater than putting a bit more in on day one to help with the pain. With an adequate staff rotating in three stations, I wouldn't think that any mega session should go two days. Personally, I can't imagine going in that second day right after the first. All I wanted to do was relax, sleep, spray, shampoo, spray and relax. Perhaps some patient is willing but it's definitely not for me, thanks. Course, there are also patients willing to go to bad doctors too so, there ya go. Just because a patient is willing to do it doesn't make it a wise practice.

Where is Hairbank. Isn't this an old post resurrected? lol I would recommend the GraftCyte as well. It has Aloe and I know a number of contributors swear by it. I concur. Another thing I did, that I thought was really helpful was, rather than shower, take a bath. In fact, take one in the morning and one at night. Something about fully dunking those suckers and staying under water, gently shampooing your head and re-immersing them in the water really helped me. Plus, when is the last time you got to soak in the tub? Did the clinic give you the GraftCyte pads? Putting them on, wearing the plastic cover for 20 to 30 minutes and then spraying the solution on at the recommended intervals (I think it was 6 to 8 times a day, if I am not mistaken) keeps that head moist.

Oh you'll know if you lost the graft. Trust me, I lost one. Dumnass that I was, saw a flaking scab, tried to extract it with a comb (don't ask me why) pulled the graft right out. A lot of blood. A lot! Like gushing down my face. Yelled at my wife. Obviously loud and frightened enough that she came running up the stairs. She got a cool, wet cloth, put some presure on it and it quickly stopped. Scared the hell out of me. Oh well, one down, 3,523 still in place! Some will go sooner, some later. As Jotronic said, it's normal. Just try to relax. Some won't shed at all. You might, I say might, lose a few but probably 99.9% of those shedders will probably come back. Some sooner, some later.

Thanks for the crown comment SNP. I am three and a half months post now and the front and top is really growing in thick but the crown is still lagging. I was really beginning to worry! It helps knowing that. As Mrjb says, and I am trying to remember....patience! In some ways, the slow growth is a blessing. It has allowed me to hide the fact that I had HT from everyone. I am getting comments like, "you look tan" or "you look young for 40". People just can't place what it is that is different. Seeing these same people time and again, and the gradual growth/thickening really helps.

I just have to comment. As a former bank officer and now a business owner, I think this policy would preclude me from even considering going there. Business practices say something about the ethics of a person. Please allow me to address a couple of points made from a professional knowledge viewpoint. #1 How do checks increase the costs? Check Systems, calling the bank to ensure adequate funds are available and clearing the check (with Check 21 procedures dramatically increasing the speed at which checks clear) all make it very easy to accept a check. #2 Credit and debit limits can temporarily be increased by the bank to allow a large item to be approved. I know, my bank has a daily limit set at $3,000. A quick call to the bank, they verified I was the cardholder and seconds later, my daily limit was temporarily increased. The card went thru fine. (I had the money and could have written a check but wanted the card miles!) #3 Just because the plastic surgeon down the street does it, doesn't mean that you should too (and I really have a hard time believing that this is truly a universal plastic surgery industry practice - damn, there goes that tummy tuck idea). Perhaps the next time you go get your car repaired, drop off your drycleaning or get your teeth cleaned you should prepay. When you ask why you should prepay, they can tell you that they require this because the plastic surgeon down the street does it. #4 - Prevents delays on the surgery date? So are you saying that even after I deposit the money, show up the day of surgery, before you cut into my head, you require me to pay? I didn't pay for my surgery until AFTER I came out of my day session. It sounds like regardless of whether you abandoned the practice of two weeks advance notice, you still want payment BEFORE you do anything. This speaks volumes about your business practice. Requiring someone to pay two weeks in advance? Come on. A deposit sure, but if you aren't going to keep it anyway if they cancel, why require it before services are rendered? Would you ever deal with a roofing company or a car dealership that says you have to pay two weeks before we roof your house or before you can pick up your car? Seriously, this policy is simply bad business. Every business has some credit losses. It's part of life. But for most businesses in America, it's normally 2% or less. If you lose more than 2% of the other 98% of honest, paying customers, you are losing business. From the comments made here, I can see more than 2% that wouldn't go for this. That should say volumes about that policy.

I've been away for a bit and I know that this will inevitably lead to getting blasted (it's okay I am used to some of it by now) but hears my thoughts -and they differ with many on this board. Research all the methods, consult with a few doctors, check their methodology and go in for a consultation with a couple doctors. As everyone here points out time and again, there are a lot of very qualified, top notch independents. I am not hear to knock anyone but don't be afraid just because someone is associated with a so-called chain. There are some very good doctors there too and the power of their network (shared marketing expenses, greater visibility) is simply a way for them to make it more affordable. Call it marketing the hell out of it or whatever you want but there is some basic business advantages to an increased pool of marketing costs being shared. I went to Dr Pauls at MHR in Denver and I am very happy with where I am at 3 1/2 months after. Not there yet but getting better every day! Short answer, look at the photos of, and talk to, former patients and be real comfortable with the doctor you choose - regardless of their affiliation or independence. It's kinda like Lasik only different. You only get one set of eyes and you only get one head of hair so research fully, be completely comfortable with your choice and feel confident that you are making the correct decision for you.

HB, THanks for the input. Yea, I know finesteride helps to keep it from enlarging - sorry for the confusion on that. My thought was, is there a side benefit to taking it even at a lower dose. You hear those commercials that say something like 50% of men over 50 have an enlarged prostate. I thought perhaps there was a chance that even at these lower doses, if you were someone that might have a prostate prone to increasing in size, the finesteride might help. Probably wishful thinking since it is only a quarter of what they prescribe but just a thought.

Dang, I am at five weeks today and I thought, just perhaps, the worst was over - shock loss, trying to hide the newly transplanted hairs by bringing the existing hairs down instead of my old combing over, ingrown hairs, itchy skin, oily scalp. Just today one of the girls at works said my hair looked thinner....argh, it gets worse? How will I survive the summer? If I can just make it to football season!

Hey Bill, Just checking back in. Work has kept me pretty busy and away from the boards. A lot of reading to catch up. I am now five weeks out and getting the itching, a few pimples, which as I've read is a good thing and some shedding/ thinning/shock that is driving me crazy. A number of people talk about taking Propecia/finesteride every other day. I've noticed a bit of decrease in libido but hanging in there, no pun intended, hoping that will come back with adjustment. I've been staying on the 1.25 mg per day finesteride but have considered backing it off to every other. What are the pluses and minuses of this? If I decide to do it, should I supplement it? Another thought I had, since finesteride is used for enlarging prostates at 5 mgs a day, is there any indication that it might help us at a smaller dose?

I was scheduled to go back to work one week after (had mine done on a Thursday) but decided to take a couple extra days and then have the weekend before I went back. Glad I did as it looked much better 11 days in versus 7. Did your doc not give you shampoo and conditioner with your post op instructions? I am still using my original supply of GraftCyte - shampoo only until the sutures were out and now conditioner. Once it is finished, my doc gave me a large bottle of Resultz. Both contain a Copper Peptide. Also, you might look at getting some Toppik and apply this lightly over the area. Combing it in has seemed to thicken up my hair and conceal the obvious-to-me new hairline. I would avoid hairspray for some time unless you can find one that doesn't weigh down the hair which might augment your existing hair shed. I am about three and a half weeks out and have had some shed so be prepared. Nothing major and you will probably notice it more than anyone else but just be prepared.

Perhaps within that same ten year window for stem cells to refine, they will come up with a way to avoid scars all together as well. Then we can all go in for our scar corrective surgery while we grab more density. Kinda like the guys that have to go in today for 1980's plug removal and corrective surgery today. We'll all look back twenty years from now and describe what we went thru to a bunch of, now, teenagers and 20-somethings and they'll look at us like our Docs were barbarians and that we are ancient. Heck, I already feel old just thinking about it.

Gorp, I only wish the hairs I had were of thicker substance. I guess I made up for being fine-haired with the hair counts. Kinda a reverse correlation to me but quite a pleasant surprise. Janna, Hopefully just on my head. I was wondering about your comment on the free hand, what method do other docs use? I just assumed there wasn't some machine that punched out a strip. Also, what is the typical shape of the strip? I didn't actually see mine so I have no idea what a strip even looks like. Doesn't it come to some spot where the two edges would meet to allow the re-suture skin to come together? My guess is had I seen it, I might have fainted anyway. Not much for blood and gore. If I understand what she decribed it sounds as if it was largest at the center back of my head and, consistent with the other side, reduced down from there. Does the shape of the head have anything to do with the strip width varying? I would assume the size of the head affects the length they can take and to get 3000 grafts, which is what was originally planned, they had to take a wider strip. Correct?

Oh, I almost forgot, B Spot asked a couple of pointed questions about my strip and my hair count. I received that information today when I went in. First, let me say, I am not sure what is normal or how you measure but I will try my best to describe the diagram Doc Pauls wrote for me. At the center of the strip, there is a 4 cm length that, at it's widest point, is 20 mm. On each side of that it is 4.5 cm wide and at the center of each, at what I presume would be 2.25 cm, it is 15 mm. The side that leads to the ends is 5 cm on each side and at the center point of that it is 10 mm. So, what I do understand is that the total length is 23 cm and it is 20 mm at it's widest part. What is the average width? Beats me, but perhaps those with advanced engineering degrees can figure it out. Hope that make sense. Now the other measure I was asked for....the hair count: 463 singles 1510 doubles 1453 triples 92 quads and yes, 6 completely rare quintuplets! Total hairs = 9166 Finally, the time on job of the techs that did my graft placement. 5 yrs, 3 1/2 yrs and 3 yrs. Oh, and all three weren't bad looking either ;-)

HB, Yea, I went in for suture removal today and confirmed that, sure enough, I did pull that darn thing right out. She said, yep, sounds exactly like a lost graft when you see that much blood. She said the same thing as you. My suture removal wasn't too bad. About brought tears to my eyes a couple times right near the centers and the ends where they were tied. But I manned up and got thru it. Doc said she was real happy with how I had taken care of the incision - very clean and scarring shouldn't be too bad at all. She also said that I probably could have had them removed on Day 8 - which was a Friday rather than waiting until Day 11 - today (Monday). Guess I had healed up so well that a few of them didn't really want to come out that easily. Bonus was that the hairdresser was in and she helped me cover up a bit with some Toppik and trimmed the back and around the ears up a bit as it was looking kinda shaggy. She helped me comb forward and applied some Toppik so I could feel a little better about covering up my new. lower hairline. Seemed to work. Had one co-worker compliment me on my nice haircut and another might have known something was up when she asked what I did on vacation. For now, I think my secret is safe. Not sure why, perhaps it is the stigma, but I really don't want to tell anyone. I'd rather leave them guessing at this point.

Bill, Thanks for taking it easy on me. It was stupid to even try and I was more mad at myself than anything for the rest of the day. For the record, I wasn't actually combing on the grafts. I was simply trying to comb the existing hairs over the top and accidentally stuck the dang comb down there. It only took a flash for it to happen. Of course you are right, it's just one graft. I am over it moreso now. Took another shower this evening and the scab residue has definitely improved in the past 24 hours. They are actually starting to feel like little hairs now instead of stubby prickly little dots. It just made me so mad that I was that careless. What I guess I was really asking is that since I am actually at day 8 is it still possible that I pulled the whole thing out.

Thanks for the advice. Might try to trim them down. I am in on Monday morning to get my sutures out so perhaps they can help. Apparently, they have a stylist on call that comes in to help with follow up patient visits. I did post some day 8 photos over on my blog. Hopefully they give you a good view of where I am at today. I have to tell you a horrible experience I had today. When I was looking at which photos to post, I noticed how many loose scabs I had in my existing hairs. So, after I finished posting the photos, I went up to try to gently comb thru to remove them. I hit something and blood came gushing out. I yelled to my wife who quickly grabbed a towel and ice and within ten seconds of applying some pressure and cooling it down, the bleeding completely stopped. Now, I am pretty sure I wasn't being careful enough and hit an existing scab and broke it loose. My question is, is there any possible way that I lost the whole graft? I know I've heard you all say within 5 days they are set, but it hurt and bled pretty good. Perhaps I was delusional and in a panic but I could have sworn I saw a dark colored root surrounded by skin in the bloody water that I saw in the sink before my wife came with the towel. Almost like an oil well gush when they first tap it (okay so no bubblin crude came up but man did it come out hard). Has anyone ever experienced this?

Bill, What a pleasant balanced response. I was reading this as someone that recently came to the boards myself. I have always thought you have a balanced perspective on welcoming new people while being cautious. I do appreciate that and just wanted you to know. By the way, I saw you put a new photo up on the board separately. I would love to see the suture scar as well. Something I've only recently started to wonder about (like most, you can't see the back so all you focus on is what everyone else can see!).

Janna, Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I was going to try to do some update photos today but got so busy. I am going to make a better effort tomorrow. Today was day 7 for me (like you need a day to day count) and I am so excited that my scabs are "cleaning up". With each new shower, it is looking much better. The weird thing is you can feel them coming out when you are washing, you think you've rinsed so well and then you get out of the shower and see all the little white popcorn all over your head. I didn't get shaved down so my existing hair has a way of attracting the stuff. Now here is my other concern, which will be a bit more obvious when I post the update photos tomorrow. While many of the scabs are now coming loose, the hairs seem to be staying. K, cool, but I had my hair line brought down more than an inch and my shock loss is leaving me with the obvious stubble that something is new up there. I go back to work on Monday and I am really hopeful that perhaps I can blend the existing hair over and perhaps some of the transplanted hairs will decide to move on but I am getting concerned that it's going to be obvious. My wife looked at me at dinner tonight, smiled and said, 'I think if you don't want people to know, I will be going a lot of places alone this summer.' I told her what all you have said - 2 weeks, maybe 3 or 4 and they will leave but I really wish I could go off to some island for a couple months and just come back. K, long story to get to my point but I am wondering, if these little guys stick around, what have others done to conceal their new hairline?

I think it's great that Hairfree had his done the day before me. Now I have a guide of sorts. Tomorrow is day six and I am looking forward to a shower and the expulsion of some of the dark bloodspots around my new friends. One of the experienced techs mentioned to me that she recommends two showers a day. I was a bit freaked by my giant-sized shower head accidentally hitting my new hairs so I decided to go with a bath for a more controlled pouring over the head. I took two a day as she suggested. Because of this, I have taken more baths this week than the combined period since I was about eight yrs old. It was kinda nice soaking while I waited the five minutes for the shampoo to soak on the head (plus I've never inspected the lower half of my body so much, but I digress badly) I am looking forward to finally getting back to a shower tomorrow. It will be nice to finally start seeing some scab departure. I too am a bit nervous getting to aggressive with it but just the showerhead soaking, I'm sure, will start to help move these guys. Now I don't want to send out an alarm and let Bill think I am planning on using the nails anytime soon, but at what point can I? Do I have to wait two weeks, a month? As I've said, I do kinda hope that some of the grafts start departing at day 10 or so because I don't want it to be completely obvious what I've done. Is there any chance this will happen?

I love logging on so late because by the time I get here, I can see all the stir. Wow. I didn't know what to make of all this. I didn't mean to cause such a commotion. Here are a couple of my thoughts, since I (aong with B Spot) was what this was all about. I was taken aback by B's intial comments. And I do still take offense at him calling my doc part of a hair mill. Of course if I like what I got, I am going to defend her rep here. If someone can show me where she hacked someone else, then I'll shut it. But what makes her any different than any of the other places. Someone made the comment about an indy being a hairmill. Does a hairmill mean the number of patients they take on a given day? I saw the board fellas and she is no hair mill. Just another practice that takes in one or perhaps two procedures a day. K, now all that said, I do understand all that B was saying. It did come off as a bit brash and I wish he'd come with a slightly less harsh angle but, hey, I understand that this board is to protect us all from bad docs. Perhaps the Boz and MHR are just good targets cause they are chain established and will have the good with the bad. But they are big boys too. They get the good rep with the bad (admittedly, here it is mostly bad). I am not making any blanket statements on MHR saying they are all good, I was simply commenting on my doc and the people that I had do my procedure. Byehair, I appreciate what you are saying. In fact when I was first attacked this way, my thought was F this. I don't need that (oh crap, now I've used an shortened expletive too, sorry Bill j/k). But in reality, I am big enough to understand where it is coming from and in fact, I just want to set the record straight just a bit. That is my reason for coming back - plus these regs know a thing or two - okay maybe about two dozen or more - about HT that I still need to learn. I appreciate the input. I want honest feedback on how it looks from seasoned contributors. I also want to give props to the Doc if props are due and give them the big Doodoo (see I didn't explete - is that a word?)if they deserve that too. I appreciate your defense, really, I do and I do understand your point as well. But to be honest, your response was a bit of an attack back that wasn't really necessary either. Agreed? Friends? Can we all just get along? Singalong anyone? Hopefully this puts this to bed. Seeing how late it is, it should put me to bed too. Man, this not working thing, having my head punctured 3500 times and planted, medicated, sleeping upright thing has put me on a weird schedule!

Gorp, Yea you had my question right. I mean if we are all receding and there are multiples, you would think some multiples would start to show up on the front lines. My guess is perhaps there are some. They have just turned so weak and frail that they break into ones or thin doubles that appear as ones. Curious though if anyone stopped the hairloss (or slowed it) with finesteride or minox if they would start showing back up as stronger doubles. Might be an interesting problem to have new growing doubles up front, huh? I guess it just goes to validate another reason for the HT. Get the multis back growing and allow them to come off the front line with some singles placed up front. Jana, what would be a typical minimum number of singles you need to rebuild. I am sure this depends on the thickness, hair color etc, but , in round figures, what would be a minimum you would need? Hairfree, I do remember during my consult that, while my hairs were slightly less than avg thickness, they were pleased with the number of multis. When I said, really? She said, 'oh yea, there are a lot of patients that come in with tree trunk grafts but a large number of them are just that, singles.' I think it isn't as uncommon as you think to not have fours (in fact, Doc called these the lucky clovers!) In fact, I would suggest that an even better measure than simply the number of grafts or hairs would be the overall total thickness of what you get. I would guess that you could have 1500 nice thick singles and I could have 2500 thin doubles and yours might look more full. Of course, that sorta measure would just about be impossible to do (can you imagine them not only counting the grafts and hairs but also trying to calculate an overall density/thickness?).