BaronVonHairline

Hi all, I'm a bit out of the loop with who the best surgeons/practices are today. Can anyone make some recommendations for a good Dr. to chat with in the NYC area? I consulted with True & Dorin a few years back, but more just to get a sense of cost/donor area/etc. At that point I wanted to try finasteride before even thinking about an HT, and that was his advice too. I tried it, got terrible sides, can't use it, and now want to have get a couple of updated opinions on what a potential long term plan which 100% excludes fin might look like. Would love to speak to 2, maybe 3, different docs just to get opinions. This is just preliminary investigating, so I'm not looking to fly all the way out to see H&W or any other well known ones. For starters just want to keep local and get a couple of overall opinions. Thanks!

Yes, I do understand that skipping the meds almost definitely means more than one HT. I have that in mind as I think this through. As long as I feel results can be worthwhile, I am willing to consider multiple procedures. I think it's time I went and had a consult with someone and got some info and got a sense of what a long term plan might look like. Great to hear that your doctor has lots of HT patients not on fin. I've seen 1 or 2 people on here now who have had HTs with excellent results and are not on fin, so that is very heartening. I really just wish they'd get hair cloning to work already though. Imagine the rush for appointments every HT doctor on Earth is going to face the day after they announce donor limitations are no longer a factor. Sadly, I don't think we'll see that happen any time soon though. The elusive cure has been 5-10 years away at least since I was 20, and I'm 40 now. It's like that Seinfeld episode in the Chinese restaurant. How long till we're seated....."oh, about five, ten minutes." Alright, enough sad-sack ranting.

Just curious, what are RU and CB? Not familiar with those.

Yup. I was taking 1/4 pills (.25mg) on a sporadic schedule for just a few weeks and I still had sides and then a full crash which took me months after stopping to recover from. No matter the dosage, some people are just really, really sensitive to the reduction process. Sometimes I look back and wonder if taking it sporadically was also part of the problem, as my body didn't have a schedule to adjust to, but I think there's more than enough reason to think, given the total amounts I took, that I am just hypersensitive to fin. In the end I took a total of ~10 doses over the course of ~6weeks (if I recall correctly) which is about 1/4 pill 2x/week, making my total intake of fin only 2.5mg, the equivalent of only 2.5 full pills. Despite that I still crashed, very hard, and had a hellish several months of recovery. Fin is just really hard on certain people. I still wonder what the underlying reasons might be--genetic predisposition, or maybe compromised immune system, sub-optimal gut health, endocrine system predispositions, who really knows? Anyway, I truly envy the people who can take fin without sides for years and years on end. Wish it went that way for me. Bald luck I guess. I mean bad.... BAD luck.

I appreciate the reply. But after what I went through on Fin, it is 100% off my list of options, no matter the form of application. And I have also read from people on this forum that their sides were the same, or some even worse, with topical. In either case, it is off my radar for life.

I hear you. Believe me, even if I had mild to medium sides on fin I'd probably still be on it. My sides were severe though, and without wishing to derail this into an anti-fin thread, I will just sum it up by saying it was hell. And I'm one of the lucky ones who eventually got better. I've read stories of men who never recovered or it took them years, and I 100% believe them. Have you tried or considered min to maintain your HT results? Will def check your journey.

Watched your HT video. Looks incredible! Very nice to see and hear that you managed that without fin. I will definitely check your other posts and read about your journey. Thank you!

Hi all, Hoping to get some stories and see some results of those who have undergone HT but do not use Fin. I was on fin for a while and unfortunately I am one of the people who got horrible sides. Took me months after stopping to recover, so fin is off my list of options for good. Am open to trying min but dread the initial shed. I know the traditional view is an HT without meds is not the best idea, but I've seen a few people on various threads say otherwise. Have been searching around trying to find threads with such results and stories, but it's hard to search this forum with such generic keywords. Wondering if anyone has stories/threads the could link to on this forum (or others). Trying to get a sense of what is possible with just an HT long term plan that does not include any fin products, but may integrate min. Thanks!

I took it twice. First in my mid 20's, and didn't notice any side effects, but stopped anyway as I didn't want to be on it for 30-40 years. Then, weirdly, my hair loss almost completely stopped until my mid to late 30s. Looking back though, I think I had mild sides but didn't realize to correlate them with fin at the time. So in 2017 I tried Fin again and had bad sides. I got the "crash" that anti-fin people talk about and had 3 horrible months after stopping (insomnia, severe brain fog, lost 30 pounds in ~1 month, digestive issues, extreme fatigue, etc etc and worst of all, very bad anxiety and depression). After about three months of focusing on my health (early bedtime, clean diet, daily exercise, meditation, etc) the anxiety and depression suddenly came down to way more manageable levels. The fatigue and brain fog and etc remained for another few months, but slowly improved. I still have digestive issues 2 years on, but I don't think that's specific to Fin. I've read plenty of stories of people having issues after antibiotics, anti-depressants, etc. I think some meds in predisposed people can just screw up your gut bacteria. I think that's likely why I had issues with fin. So obviously I have some kind of sensitivity to it, and it is off my list of options. Too bad, too, because it stopped my hair loss dead in its tracks, and even after stopping, I didn't start shedding again for about 12-14 months or so. Really wish I could've stayed on it and been ok. It really is magic for hair if you're a good responder. For the record, I 100% think Post-finasteride syndrome is real, but I think it happens in a very small% of men, and I'm not trying to scaremonger. There's a subset of people who have terrible reactions to nearly any med.

So, wait.....how does this work?

The reason companies like this offer money back guarantees is they know: 1- Many people will forget about the device or lose track of how long they've used it, and never even ask for their 6 month refund. They'll just eventually decide it doesn't work and toss it into a box in their closet. Or they'll keep putting it off till the last minute until it's too late. 2- They can put enough in the fine print to make it difficult to actually get your money back, and many people who try will give up after a 1-2 frustrating customer service experiences. (Look up the reviews of products with such offers and you'll see pleeeeenty of posts about how hard it was to actually get a reply from the company regarding a refund.) 3- For the few who stick it out and actually collect their refund, there is usually some sort of restocking fee; for something like this it could easily be $100. This small profit combined with the above 2 items makes it worthwhile enough for them to sell you something that probably costs them literally a few dollars to make and ship. So, essentially, they're playing the odds on consumer habits, and those odds are in their favor. It's like thinking a restaurant will fail by offering "all you can eat". They know that most people aren't going to come in and literally eat $157 worth of shrimp while only paying $11.99. If you feel it's worth it, by all means, pursue it and please post back your experience. But do also have a healthy sense of skepticism, because you risk wasting more than just money. You also risk wasting several months where a better option could have actually helped.

Fair enough. I just hate to see people chased off the forum when they have legit questions. We're all going through enough insecurity and embarrassment as it is. Asking these questions here is waaaaaay easier than in front of a doctor, and I don't want people deterred from that. @Made2care - My attempt at being dickishly humorous was perhaps too aggressive. I apologize.

I used Fin at 2 different times in my life, and like you, my sides were way worse on the 2nd round. 1st round was early to mid 20s and I didn't notice any sides. I stopped just cus I didn't like the idea of being on it for literally 30 or 40 years. Then I tried again just 2 years ago, at age 37, and had terrible sides. In fact, I got what pfs people call the crash. Everything went completely haywire literally overnight, and I was really unwell for several months after stopping, and etc, but that's a different story. But while I was recovering, I saw a Dr. who specializes in treating men with issues after stopping with fin, and he said in general, it's not uncommon that people take a certain medicine for a while and are relatively fine, but then take the same med years later and have a much more sensitive reaction. Not sure why. Maybe some kind of chemical reaction takes place and you become much more sensitive to the med or what, but anyway, no sides the first time, massive sides the second time. Too bad though, cus good god damn it worked well on my hair. I really wish I could've stayed on it.

The real question here is, for those of you using Minox and seeing results, are you also using Fin/Dut? Cus then it's hard to tell which one is benefiting you most, and I would suspect it's fin/dut. I ask because I tried fin and had very bad sides, so, despite it working well on my hair, it is off my list of options. I keep wavering on the idea of Min, as I'm dreading the shed, and I also worry it would actually make my hair look thinner, giving it that wet appearance. But I don't know, it's kinda the only option left to me at this point.

Made2Care. Grow the fuck up. This isn't "TMI." This is exactly what this forum is for. And many doctors don't have that much experience with fin and its sides, so he's actually likely to get more detailed answers here, from actual experienced users. And it's easier to discuss here online than face to face with a dr. If you can't handle a little adult discussion, then maybe run off and watch Bambi and eat some milk and cookies till you feel all better. OP, search around this forum and you should find lots of experience stories. I think given where you're at with it, most people (myself included) would say ride it out. You're at 2 months, give it another couple. Your body may very well adjust and you'll be fine. If after another 2-3 months you still feel off, then maybe you can stop, or even try smaller doses--ie- instead of 1mg/day, try 1mg every 3-4 days, or .5mg every other day, etc. My only specific advice is, if you do decide to stop, taper off rather than cold turkey. Again, there will be varying opinions on here about that, but that's my advice. Cut back to say 1 dose every 3 days for a month, then 2x week for a few weeks, then 1x a week, etc etc.

I couldn't care less about white/gray. I wish I had a full, shimmering head of silver locks. I'd take that any day over baldness. Aaaaaaany day.

Being honest, I think it looks a bit fake. Now, if I saw you on the street, I might not think that, but since I'm looking for it, I can tell. It's like others said above, you went TOO thick and stylish. And it seems to jut out too much from the sides, as if it is maybe too big for your head. I agree with the others that based on your actual hair pics above, you could grow it out and use some fibers and be totally good to go, though yes that would be temporary, as loss continues. Or maybe you could go for a more modest look with your system. Unremarkable is the right advice. If you toned down that system a few degrees, it could be right on the money. But it seems like you are already contacting the company to do just that, so great luck and let us know how it goes!

Agreed 100%.

Agreed, in my experience, seems to be that demographic too. I've wondered why. I once read something about how older men, 40s and beyond, are already beginning to experience andropause/decline in testosterone/other natural physiological changes, so if they ARE having mild-medium side effects, they may chalk it up to age rather than the meds. But I haven't heard of many older guys having extreme sides, which is curious. Maybe it's part of the same above reason--some hormonal change has taken place in their bodies by then which makes them less susceptible to overreacting to a hormonal change.

I think lots of hair loss doctors don't necessarily get feedback from patients who are suffering, because if you start suffering sexual, mental, or emotional symptoms you're probably less likely to go to an HT doc, and rather to your primary or a specialist. So I think lots of HT docs who prescribe Fin might not end up getting the feedback of patients who react badly. If a doc gives 10 guys fin, 2 react badly, and they both go to outside specialists, as far as that doc knows, 10 of 10 did fine on it. Though I know not only HT docs prescribe it, obviously. For the record though, before I took fin, I consulted with a couple of HT docs about both a possible HT and about fin. One told me he had 1,000s of fin patients, and the worst he'd heard were some had mild to medium libido and erection issues, but most were fine. The other doc however told me he had numerous patients who were "young guys, who should not be having the problems they are having," and that the problems were long lasting and persistent. He also said he does not give fin scripts to any of his patients, and told me in no uncertain terms that he himself would absolutely not take fin. Also, not to generalize doctors too broadly, but lots of them go by current medical literature, which is fair and understandable. But pfs is a new and emerging issue, which means it isn't heavily in the current literature, so it's not going to be taken seriously until or unless it becomes prevalent enough that it moves from anecdotal to peer reviewed and accepted. Any new condition or reaction is by nature going to start out as anecdotal. There was a time when Vioxx was widely prescribed, and as anecdotal evidence started to arise, it remained a popular drug regardless. Eventually, after supposedly 50-60,000 deaths, it was pulled from the market. But it took that long to move from "my neighbor's mom's ex-roommate's veterinarian said it's dangerous," to being something in medical journals that said, Vioxx should no longer be prescribed. Everything starts anecdotally. The real issue is how do certain things make it past the FDA to begin with.

I've read similar theories, re: hormonal spike and crash. Some think the reason is Fin slows down conversion of T into DHT, then when you come off it or get some kind of tolerance, DHT floods back in mass amounts and overloads and damages the receptors, which results in the body being unable to properly process the T/DHT, which leads to all the hormonal imbalances et al. But I can't say. There are several theories out there. As far as that Dr. treating my hormonal imbalances, it was an option that I didn't want to do. I didn't want to treat the symptoms. Had I gone that route. I'd likely have been on T replacement therapy for life, which leaves you infertile, as well as needing anti-depressants et al. It would be like wack-a-mole--low T? here's a pill for that, depressed? here's a pill, brain fog, here's 2 more pills, insomnia, here are pills, anxiety--pills. I did not want to go down that rabbit hole and am glad I didn't. I felt that blindly shoving pharmaceuticals into my body caused this issue, it wasn't the way to solve it. Anyway, I realize I've come off as quite negative in this thread, which I genuinely didn't mean to. As far as your quitting or not, it's totally a personal choice. Some men have issues, many others do not, and go on to have great hair for years and years. It's a hard choice and a gamble. As for the hair, I stopped losing almost instantly on fin and that remained the case for a good few months after coming off. Maybe at about 3-4 months shedding increased somewhat, and recently it has increased even more, back to about pre-fin levels. It seems that the better my other symptoms get, the worse the shedding gets, sadly. I'm considering trying Minoxidil, but like you am kinda skeptical. During the worst part of my situation I thought, after going through all this I won't care about hair once I'm well again. But as I get better, I'm like...damn...hair loss sucks! Haha...oh well.

This is something I am curious about too, is underlying circumstances. I think certain guys have a predisposition for whatever reason to respond badly to this med. Maybe for some of us it just affects the hormone levels too much or something. But I think there is something specific, maybe a compromised immune system, or I don't know... Interestingly, in researching all this, I found there are cases of women who have nearly identical issues to what I listed, but from the birth control pill. So I think maybe just some subset of people have a sort of delicate hormonal balance and can't handle it being disrupted. As for the libido thing, mine went down somewhat early, but wasn't terrible. It didn't get really low until all those other sides hit, but even then, I think it was more that I was locked in fight or flight mode, and when your nervous system is in that state, just from a biological perspective, sex isn't important. No use trying to get laid when you're running from a predator, in evolutionary terms. So I think for me at least, a significant part of the libido issues was just being too distracted by the other sides to even think about sex. Also, as for the appearance of the hair improving so quickly, I noticed that when I was on Fin, my usually slightly oily/greasy forehead and scalp were much less so. So maybe that oiliness is caused by DHT, and once Fin shuts that off, the hair is no longer laying kinda flat and bunched together as much, as oiliness can make it do. So maybe the fuller appearance is from that, a drier scalp just allowing the hair to stand up more and give the appearance of more coverage. But also, in general, I have pretty dry and frizzy hair, not shiny. When I was on fin, this changed almost instantly, and it looked shiny and healthy. Honestly, I was really surprised at how quick and drastic the change seemed to be as well. But seems like you're having good results, so good on you for that. Again, despite how I reacted, I don't demonize Fin like I've seen some others do. I just think there is some small subset of men who are going to have bad issues. Unfortunately for me, and my hair, it seems I'm one of those.

Not really concerned with what you do or don't believe, actually. But when you go from palmfuls of shedding to literally 10-20 hairs lost per shower at worst, it's noticeable. Additionally, there are numerous stories of men who had noticeable changes in short periods of time, mere weeks, where side effects where nearly immediate. If someone has a strong reaction to a medicine because their body is exceptionally sensitive to it, there is no reason to think this an unbelievable or impossible time frame for changes. Further, the neuroendocrinologist I saw, who specifically specializes in finasteride side effects, told me to my face he has hundreds of patients suffering side effects, and a couple of dozen or so who were on the medicine mere days or weeks before things went south. Your position is tantamount to saying, certain courses of antibiotics are meant to last 6 weeks, so it is impossible that any noticeable effects could emerge prior to that. Well, there are some people who have unknown allergies to certain antibiotics and can get ill after just a few days worth. So, again, not overly concerned with your belief or lack thereof, but my first hand experience, numerous (albeit anecdotal) stories, a growing body of studies and cases, a slowly growing chorus of doctors, a specializing neuroendocrinologist, and the basic idea of potential overreaction to medicine due to personal sensitivity all disagree with your position.

I'm gonna chime in here, not to be an alarmist, but just to add another perspective. Firstly I'll say, nearly any medicine will work for some, not for others, and will have some % who get side effects. Finasteride is no different. As for me, I started on Fin in Spring 2017, but decided to stay low dose to monitor results vs. sides. I started at .5mg every other day. Within literally 1 week my shedding decreased dramatically, and my hair looked noticeably thicker and fuller. It was amazing, really. Over the next couple of weeks, shedding was minimal, hair looked healthy and full, but libido was noticeably lower. It wasn't gone, just lower. I was less interested in sex, but not drastically, and my erection quality dipped to about 50% or so its usual. I also had mild to medium brain fog. It was a bit worrying, but given the results on my hair, I felt at the time it was worth it. I experimented with even lowering my dose, cutting to .25mg every 3 days, and saw no decline in results, though it was only for a couple of weeks. Then, overnight, out of nowhere, something went wrong. My system "crashed," as PFS-ers call it. I felt groggy and disconnected one day and figured maybe I'd just caught a virus or something. Then, the next night began terrible insomnia, hot flashes, horrible anxiety, terrible headaches, severe brain fog, nausea, and an overall feeling of sickness both mental and physical. This lasted several days until I finally saw a doctor, who was no help other than prescribing Lorazepam (anxiety med) to help with insomnia. My sleep was neither normal nor good, but at least I could get a couple of sporadic hours per night now. From literally 0-1 hours/night to about 3-5. Still bad, but big improvement. Also I had trouble with most foods. Anything with the slightest bit of sugar made me incredibly ill, and anything starchy made my brain fog even worse. So I whittled my diet down to fresh veggies and fruits, and organic meats, and only water or herbal teas to drink. I still felt terrible 100% of the time during this period, but the clean diet at least kept it from getting even worse. By this point I had constant anxiety, like being stuck in fight or flight mode constantly, and terrible depression. I've had depression on and off for most of my life, but this was markedly worse. It was just jet black, utter hopelessness. My sleep was still mediocre at best, I had daily headaches, digestive issues, hot flashes, severe weakness and fatigue, trouble concentrating, forgetfulness, and brain fog that bordered on depersonalization. At times I'd literally have to be like, "relax, you're at work, it's Monday, you just had lunch, your name is ____, just do your work, get to bed early tonight." etc etc, I had to basically stop and remind myself where I was to just get back to reality a bit. By now I'd obviously found my way to forums about PFS and all, but sensed very quickly that the horribly negative attitudes of those guys was going to be utterly unhelpful to me. So I avoided all the posts except those that discussed improvement and recovery. The common threads were, very clean diet, daily exercise, some supplements, and generally very healthy lifestyle. So I kept diet to veggies and clean meat, daily high intensity exercise, daily meditation to calm the anxiety (meditation and deep breathing helped, a lot), relaxing as much as possible, going to bed early, doing my best to keep stress low. As low as my energy was, I could power through a 15-20 minute workout and it made me feel better. However, any kind of slow long exercise drained me unimaginably. If I went for a 20-30 minute walk around town, I would stumble back home and collapse, dizzy, unable to eat, and almost too weak to stand. I lost almost 30 pounds (and I'm already skinny) in less than 2 months, and looked a bit gaunt. My muscles got flabby and my limbs looked droopy and limp. I went to doctors several times during this period. My blood pressure was chronically low, and my testosterone was very low. My overall T was at the very low end of normal, bioavailable T was below normal, FS and LSH and all those were abnormal as well. Also white blood cell counts dipped to very low. The only things that kept me from feeling even worse were, as I said above, diet, exercise, meditation. So I stuck to these day in and day out, feeling horrible the whole time, sleeping inconsistently a few hours a night only thanks to meds, and just hoping that this was neither permanent nor even long term. The more I researched, the more I became convinced that if I could put my body in a place to heal itself, it would. Then, very very thankfully, at about the 3 month mark, my anxiety and depression decreased significantly. I still had terrible brain fog, fatigue, weakness, digestive issues, headaches, intermittent skin rashes, dark circles under the eyes, dark spots on the gums, joint and muscle aches, several other symptoms....but my anxiety and depression dropped a lot, and this was enormous. Now at least I felt like a person again. I was a very tired and groggy person, but I wasn't panicking or hopeless. It's now been ~6 months since I crashed, and I'm mostly normal again. Things have improved slowly but noticeably. I can digest most foods again without much trouble, other than maybe mild uptick in brain fog, digestive issues in general are subsiding, fatigue and weakness are there but much lower, and in general I am doing ok. Not surprisingly, my hair has begun shedding a lot again, and is looking thinner and sparser than ever. Regardless, given the above, Finasteride is off my radar for good, whether topical or oral or whatever. I've left out some of the details of how ill I felt early on, cus this post is already too long. Again, this isn't to scare you or be one of those horribly angry PFS guys who spend their lives hating on fin. But if you're wrestling with the idea of trying fin or coming off it or etc, I think it's only fair to get all the info. For most people, fin will work to some degree, for some it will work wonders and they'll save their hair for years or decades, but for some % there is the possibility of horrible side effects. The first 3 months after I crashed were undoubtedly the worst 3 months of my life. I wouldn't want to feel that way again for anything. Not even for a fucking day. It was nightmarish. And at the time, I didn't know if it was long term or permanent. I feel really lucky that the worst was over in 3 months, and the rest has been slowly improving since then. But there are stories of guys out there who took 2 years, 5 years, 8 years to recover. And others who are over a decade without recovering yet. And again, even at nearly 6 months, many of my symptoms are just starting to level out now. Anyway, I had heard of PFS before all this happened, and decided the risk was worth it, so I tried Fin. So ultimately, whatever you read or hear, it is up to you. No one can make the decision for you. There is no easy answer. For the record, I am 38. I'm also not one of those propeciahelp guys who just come here to post angrily--you can search by my name and see my posts for months before all this happened, where I was weighing my options on Fin, HTs, Min, etc etc. Also, interesting to note, I took Fin for ~6 months in my mid 20s, and stopped not due to sides, but cus I was nervous about potentially being on any med for the rest of my life. Though, looking back, I did have sides then too, I just didn't realize they were due to fin. Anyway, I'm going to go back to Regenepure and might consider Minoxidil. But I don't think those do as much as we all wished. The only thing that we know really works is fin, but for me, it's a no-go. Too bad really, cus like I said, it stopped my hair loss dead in its tracks in literally days. But it's also important to remember, slowing hair loss is actually a side effect of fin, not its original purpose. It's just a byproduct of it shutting down major hormonal processes in your body. Anyway, I'll end this novella now. Too looong.

At best.