mav23100gunther

21 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Welcome back Mav,

It's not that I don't want this thread brought back, I think it's important to have these discussions as long as they are educational and objective. However, in my experience they end up becoming about validation and usually resort to name calling or bashing others results.

The truth is, as you mentioned this is a cosmetic procedure. Therefore, there isn't any legitimate third party researchers that can be objective and unbiased wanting to actually conduct a legitimate study. Furthermore, not all surgeons are created  equal, the skill, talent and experience varies widely, as do their results. So, even if one surgeon had a study comparing his/her own results with either procedure, that only proves how the procedures work at that specific clinic.

Until then, all we can do is go off of results. Me and you both are prime examples of how both procedures can offer fantastic and natural results and why we should stop pitting these procedures against each other.  Glad to see you back Mav, hope you stick around always thought you provided insightful information.

Thanks bud, I’ll stick around for a bit to catch-up. At some point I do want to do another pass to address the mid-scalp, but for now an upcoming engagement with the better half is keeping me busy and the diamond will ensure my HT fund is too low to afford that next pass anytime soon. 

It’s been a very long time since this thread was blowing up. Can’t believe it’s been three years. Too be honest, back then I was actually lapping up the info being given out by the OP and the so called three forces. I realized later on that the Dr may not have actually been as up to date on the most recent developments in the FUE industry as he probably should have been (not attending industry conferences or knowing the existence of a well respected FUE surgeon until that surgeon engaged him in a seperate thread). The magnificent transformation and results of the FUE procedures that our co-moderator HTsoon received, in my opinion, pretty much proved to me that I was dead wrong to ever believe that FUT was always a better option. I am not saying that the OP was at all wrong on the matter, and I know HTsoon doesn’t want this thread being revisited, but as someone who has been out of the loop for a year and a half (as I have been living life and focusing on other pertinent life events), I am curious as to whether, three years later FUE has further developed and been refined, and from a pure results perspective, how does it now compare with FUT?

23 minutes ago, JeanLDD said:

The issue is that in the case of a bad result no one can ever know whether it was due to surgeon mistakes or if it was physiological etc. On top of that if people were aware of the actual failure rates of transplants even with top surgeons from doing (overly) extensive research like I have, there is no way in hell they would opt for dropping 20k USD on a procedure with non-existent post-op care. You're fundamentally arguing that a surgeon has no moral obligation to provide a good service.

It's also the definition of immorality; providing a poor service to someone in a fragile personal situation, having the ability and finances to correct it but not doing so. I'm not saying it should be illegal or denying that its a tough and uncertain world out there which people should be aware of, but in any other industry or provided service this wouldn't be considered "morally" acceptable. A significant number of surgeons (the majority) do offer touch-ups or partial refunds in the case of a bad result, the abnormal situation is those who don't. 

The reality is that people looking for hair transplants are typically highly emotional and often desperate, they're bombarded with only good results from clinics that are marketed heavily on websites like this and then typically spend 30 seconds during consult and pre-procedure hearing about and signing a form accepting it isn't a sure bet, without being given specific failure rates. How about being put in contact with every repair patient the clinic has ever produced? Obviously this is not the way anyone markets or should market in this world, but when the cruel realities in this industry are overwhelmingly masked to get people in the door It's not asking to much to suggest surgeons ought to stand behind their work in the situation of a bad result when they lose little profit in percentage terms by doing so. An individual can lose a huge amount of money for their personal situation, experience psychological damage and harm to their daily life and still be on the hook for more. 

Don't get me wrong, I think a surgeon should be entitled to run their business however they like and if a daredevil like yourself is happy to accept the risks involved with the service without any potential compensation when things turn bad you should be able. It's fair as a base assumption though that it isn't moral to provide poor service for a huge amount of money and not rectify the poor result. People should be made aware both that if a clinic doesn't at the outset, and also that most clinics (at least those advertised on this website) do indeed stand behind their work and offer some form of compensation for a bad result.

It’s a very deep thought. I do think a surgeon has a moral obligation to provide good service by executing the procedure to the best of his ability first and foremost. I don’t think that good service should extend to having to provide a refund if the procedure is not successful despite the surgeon executing the procedure to the best of his ability, and the patient having made an informed decision to consent to the surgery despite the risks. I also believe the surgeon has a moral obligation to ensure that he is only working on an informed patient and therefore one who has made an informed decision based on that surgeon clearly communicating the risks involved and chance of non-success. To me, this is no different than engaging an attorney who then loses the case despite his best efforts. He should still be paid for his services. It becomes different when a seller guarantees his product, and that’s when a return policy and refunds should come into play. No hair transplantation surgeon should be guaranteeing success. I stand by my point of view that providing refunds or free touch ups should be a good business decision as apposed to a moral obligation. 

9 hours ago, JeanLDD said:

I hate when people say this. You know as well as he does that he absolutely would not reject 200k over 40k a year if he could get it, the difference is that you're honest about it. 

I have no issue with surgeons charging whatever they like, but I have a serious issue with surgeons charging at extreme prices and not performing touch-ups or offering refunds for free if the results are poor which is blatantly immoral, no matter what you think about capitalism or whether someone needs 200k a year.

Looks like we are in total agreement on the first point then. Yes I do know that he would not decline $200k. I was trying to articulate it as nicely as possible. 

Whilst I appreciate your 2nd point, I disagree that not offering refunds or free touch-ups is immoral just because the prices are extreme. This is an elective procedure that is far from a sure thing. The risk of an unsuccessful result was disclosed to me at each consultation I attended. I still chose to move ahead despite the risks. I hardly think I am then entititled to a refund of the result was unsuccessful due to scientific reasons outside of the control of the surgeon. He is running a business for heavens sake. Now is it bad business for him to to not try make it right to an unsatisfied customer by offering partial refunds or a free touch-up on a case by case basis, yes I think that is probably a bad business decision, but hardly immoral, please. It’s a tough world out there my friend where nothing is free. 

3 hours ago, Squidward said:

Dr's are making complete BANK off of hair transplants with some charging up to 10$ per graft, that is insane. It comes down to morals and how rich people feel they need to be. Honestly, if I could perform hair transplant surgery, I would do it making a comfortable living of 40K a year just so people could enjoy their lives without having a chunk of their head cut out and being able to enjoy a full head of hair. Its not fair some people are born and for the rest of their lives enjoying a full head of hair where as other people bald, society demands appearance and Dr's quite literally take advantage of peoples insecurities. No reason in this world a Dr has to make that much money off of other peoples insecurities. 

40K a year? If you could make 200k a year, I would betcha you would go for it. I could be wrong, and if I am then you are a better human than I am. Bottom line is supply and demand. Price is set by how much consumers are willing to pay. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Surgeons charging that much if consumers are willing to pay. That’s the world we live in unless you want to relocate to a communist nation. I would also love to know where in the US is 40k a year comfortable?

3 hours ago, Squidward said:

I showed my girlfriend an operation of FUT and she cringed and asked why anyone would do that. It is barbaric. You are cutting a chunk of FLESH out of somebodies head when you can do a less invasive method of extracting grafts singularly. Dr's are making complete BANK off of hair transplants with some charging up to 10$ per graft, that is insane. It comes down to morals and how rich people feel they need to be. Honestly, if I could perform hair transplant surgery, I would do it making a comfortable living of 40K a year just so people could enjoy their lives without having a chunk of their head cut out and being able to enjoy a full head of hair. Its not fair some people are born and for the rest of their lives enjoying a full head of hair where as other people bald, society demands appearance and Dr's quite literally take advantage of peoples insecurities. No reason in this world a Dr has to make that much money off of other peoples insecurities. Any Dr morally could take the time to perform a surgery FUE, making sure the grafts were properly harvested and placed correctly to insure good growth at a reasonable rate. Money greed is a horrible thing and honestly a shame.

Barbaric? What are you talking about? Have you ever seen a C-section before? Or maybe Open heart surgery? Brain surgery to cut out tumors? If you think an elective FUT strip procedure is barbaric, then I wonder what you think of the others I mentioned. What about LASIK where they cut a flap in your eyeball, lift it, and then zap away at your eyeball using a laser. Get real man, FUT is nowhere near barbaric. Is it gruesome, sure, but it works with minimal risk of any king of injury or complication, and there are plenty of more gruesome medical procedure. Calling this form of modern medicane that transforms the lives of many men for the better is extremely disrespectful to the surgeons out there who make it happen. 

Hi UK,

I would encourage you to start your own thread, providing pre-op and post op photos, with a detailed review of your experience. If you are in fact dissatisfied, we can alert the clinic to respond to see what happened with your case. Best wishes

HTsoon, I have been MIA living life and completely missed you becoming a moderator. Congrats on the new role, can’t think of a more qualified person to take on the role

Thanks Bill. Yes I should have clarified that. I actually thought the same thing when i saw the name, but when I saw the doctor's picture I knew it was a different doctor. I actually really like the texture, cleansing, and washout of this product. After only using it for a month I can't comment if it slows hair-loss, but will report back with updates.

If anyone knows a good shampoo, it has gotta be this guy!

 

1) Rahal's practice is mostly FUE. Yes patients still get strip. But most are FUE.

 

 

 

.

This wasn’t the case 2 years ago when I got my prouder dons with him. He was doing two a day, one usually strip, and the other FUE. The online Rahal account even posted on this site recently that the clinic performs about half and half. I’ll try track down that post.

you all proberbly know that im a former patient of This clinic.

and furthermore the results and donor was really bad.

To answer the question regarding a second chance for the clinic i Also need to ask my self This question:

“Would i go to This clinic and get my HT done again?”

The answer with be NO, not in a million of years

 

I was the one discovered that dr hakan used fake profiles and Many of Them was texting me and praised him to the sky.

And lured me into a HT with him

When to find out it was guys sitting in the same building as the doctor.

I mean come on!

 

I could mention a few more things that would make people stay Thousends of miles away from the clinic but i want.

So the clinic did not make things right with you or attempt to as Bill is claiming?any refund?

 

I want to perform FUE hair transplantation in Dr.Rahal clinic.

 

you are not qualified to perform FUE hair transplantation

Mikey and Mav,

 

I should have added that Dr. Doganay has worked and made things right with his previous clients as well. Please keep in mind that we've given Dr. Doganay over 2 years to prove himself and many of his newer patients have posted examples of their excellent results and he's been presenting new examples that look great. He is also much more involved in the procedure and the technician that was messing things up is gone.

 

Sometimes there's a broken cog in the wheel and you have to fix things to get things working again. Should Dr. Doganay be punished forever even though he made things right immediately and has been proving it ever since? I don't think so.

 

Personally, I think based on all the patients we've seen and examples of his results, that we should give him another chance. Physicians who are removed because of a problem should have a chance to make things right. And we waited a long time to make sure it was really fixed. If we waited only 3 to 6 months or even a year, I'd agree that we should wait. But it's been over 2 years now.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

Bill

Bill, I seem to recall some issues with various online shills popping up suspiciously at the same time to troll this forum, one of which was found to be a roommate of a Doganay employee (the IP address gave this away), and then another instance where the online rep came onto this forum disgruntled and admitting to the fact that the clinic was unethical with dealings with ex clients. I realize these were unsubstantiated and therefore hearsay events, but I don’t believe it was just the poor results by the clinic that got folks upset. It was that combined with the manner in which the clinic was treating patients and non-patients at the time. Can you please elaborate further to us how you have gotten comfortable that the clinic is conducting itself to meet and exceed your minimin standards, as well as how you are satisfied that the noise mentioned above was just that? Have you or Pat visited the clinic recently? I think that would be helpful in convincing others. I’m still a no though, but interested in hearing how others feel.

It’s a no from me. He let his standards slip, and don’t think you can blame it on one bad Apple. Still think you need another couple of years of seasoning so we can assess whether the results remain consistent on an ongoing basis. Check back in 2019

Sorry for late update.

 

I have contacted a few clinics regarding future plan and quality of my donor.

 

Eugenix : couldnt give me a number, but said that i have good donor and good beard.

 

Asmed : About 5000 grafts FUE left.

 

Beard : 1500-2000 grafts.

 

I will update this thread with pictures at 6 months. Not much to report now.

Do you have an update for us mate?

Is not to hard to answer your question!! im not from USA, i always watching these forum and the spanish forum!

 

Doctor konior and shapiro are top notch surgeons definitely!

 

But answering your question.... which European doctor is better and cheaper than konior? Is my personal opinion.....and FUE not FUT

 

1- Doctor Freitas from Spain.

2- Doctor Maras from Cyprus

3- Doctor Keser From turkey

 

The cost of a hair transplant in the United States is too high, nowadays have appeared very good doctors with affordable prices for many people.

The OP was talking FUT, so that's the basis for my question. You will have a tough time arguing that European surgeons are of higher quality than Konior and Shapiro. I also only asked about better. I did not ask about who is cheaper. Now if we are talking FUE, then I actually am of the opinion that one could find FUE surgeons in Europe equal to and perhaps better than those of the US - and a lot cheaper too. When I one day get stripped out, I will definitely strongly consider Europe with the likes of Lorenzo, Erdogan and Ferudini.

Also look into Dr Nader of Mexico. I haven't researched him myself, but I have heard some noise around him - the good kind

Agreed. European dr.s are cheaper and better quality than US drs. Apart from Europe try turkish drs too. Seen good quality work from them and theyre cheaper than Eurpoean too.

You lost me at better quality. Although I agree the procedure is cheaper in Europe, I'd ask if you can name a European surgeon who is better quality than Dr Konior or Dr Shapiro?

If the OP can afford the cost of Konior, then my advice is not to let costs drive the choice of surgeon. If he lands at Dr Konior being the best choice quality wise, then that's the answer.

Goat indeed! Dr Hasson is a bad man.

Ernie, you are the runner up though

Mav, I would just like to repost the following that you wrote because I believe it is important for Dr. Feller to answer.

 

"1) your position on FUE seems to just be based on your own experience performing the surgery

2) I understand that you have not attended an ISHRS or other conference in person in years

3) you appear to be unaware of who exactly the new and upcoming FUE surgeons actually are. Dr Lupanzula is a well respected FUE surgeon recommended by this very site and who actually presented/gave a demonstration at a FUE conference hosted by Erdogan in 2015 and which was attended by some heavy hitters like Shapiro, Wong, Feriduni, Lorenzo and others. Yet, you yourself admitted you had never heard of Dr Lupanzula until he posted on this thread.

4) I am not even convinced you have seen a live FUE from one of these top FUE surgeons in recent years. I could be wrong on this point. "

 

Not being aware of Erdogan and Lupanzula as a hair transplant doctor in 2017, especially considering their work on the research and FUE conference circuit is outright shameful. Not only is it a terrible look, but it looks very, very hard to believe. It looks like desperation, particular considering Dr. Feller's claims that FUE isn't popular or growing in popular. Clearly an outright lie or pure ignorance of what the available ISHRS data about the growth in FUE procedures indicates. Shouldn't a top doctor be payingo attention to facts and statistics? One would hope so..

He won't answer, defend or address these points because they are valid. Same reason he is complaining about me to the Moderators to get them to silence me. I am not questioning the factual accuracy of the information that he is putting out, but I do think he starts to lose credibility when one considers that it appears he is not following or staying on top of the recent advances in FUE or at least the execution of it, and therefore may no longer be in a position to then argue that FUE surgeons haven't been able to overcome his so called detrimental forces. At some point, basing the argument so heavily on one's own experience performing the surgery without careful consideration to what others may be doing - just doesn't cut it, and one quickly starts to lose credibility. He knows this, and I suspect that the fact I keep bringing it to light is one of the reasons he wants to silence me so badly.

Thank you.

You're welcome

No, you didn't simply change your mind. You agreed to not post on MY threads but "reserved" the right to comment as you wished on other threads not started by me. This thread was started by me.

 

And why do you follow me around online anyway ? I don't know you. We've never met nor have we ever spoken. But when you constantly harass me online and even tell viewers of this site to actively not consider me for surgery I don't think it's "telling you what to do" by demanding that you stop. I think any doctor targeted by you as I have been would demand the same thing and be justified in doing so.

 

Your focus on me is simply creepy and I have asked the moderators to step in.

Yes I did agree to not post on your threads, and then after thinking about it some more, I changed my mind. Last I checked, there is no law against changing one's mind. Like I said previously, you certainly do not have the right to EVER dictate to me what I can and can not do on a public forum. I am posting my opinion on threads that interest me the most, and where I feel the need to chime in. My posts are fully in compliance with the terms and conditions of this site, nor do I intend to deviate from this. My posting history is there for the Moderators to see, and I am confident that your allegations against me are unfounded. I have supported you and your position on FUT vs FUE previously, and I have also spoken out against you when I disagreed.

Why so sensitive at me calling you out? Why is it my position against your recent behaviour that is touching such a nerve? If you don't believe what you did to the Lupanzula video was illegal, unethical or in bad taste, then why did you pull it down and wipe out any sign of its existence?

You have been very vocal in your criticism of FUE, and for the most part I still don't have a reason to disagree with the position that you have laid out for us. However, I think it is important for folks to know the following:

1) your position on FUE seems to just be based on your own experience performing the surgery

2) I understand that you have not attended an ISHRS or other conference in person in years

3) you appear to be unaware of who exactly the new and upcoming FUE surgeons actually are. Dr Lupanzula is a well respected FUE surgeon recommended by this very site and who actually presented/gave a demonstration at a FUE conference hosted by Erdogan in 2015 and which was attended by some heavy hitters like Shapiro, Wong, Feriduni, Lorenzo and others. Yet, you yourself admitted you had never heard of Dr Lupanzula until he posted on this thread.

4) I am not even convinced you have seen a live FUE from one of these top FUE surgeons in recent years. I could be wrong on this point.

Based on the above 4 points, I question if you are really keeping abreast of the latest developments in the FUE industry to be able to make the assertions about FUE that you have been making. My opinion of course.

By the way, didn't you apologize and promise never to come onto one of my threads again when I proved you were very mistaken about another assumption you made about me and posted online ? You should demonstrate some honor and decency by holding up your end of the bargain by not posting in my threads again like you claimed you would.

Yes I apologized and deleted the said posts just like I said I would. You demanded that I never come on your threads again, but I never ever promised to comply with that request. In a much earlier posting I said I would no longer address you, but subsequently changed my mind. I never promised anything. You see Dr Feller, you may think you have the right to go around and make demands of others, but you don't. I believe my posts comply with the terms of conditions of this site, and do not see any reason why you reserve the right to demand that I not post on your threads again. I am confident that my 1,000 odd posting history proves your allegations as baseless. Being a Dr certainly does not give you the right to go around and tell me what to to do.

Notice no FUE practitioners have come on to debate these statements ? They never do.

 

There is a simple reason for it...they can't.

 

NYC Hair Transplant | NY Hair Restoration | Feller & Bloxham Medical

Not true and you know it.

1) Dr Lupanzula and Dr Bhatti have both come on to debate you

2) When Dr Lupanzula recently did so on this very thread, you then proceeded to take copy-write protected video of the said Dr performing a procedure from another source, purposefully hide the JT logo, and then completely tear the thing apart when in my opinion was unfair and uncalled for. The backlash was so bad that you even took down the video.

FUE practioners do not not come on to debate these statements not because they can't, but because they don't want to be subjected to similar unprofesional treatment dished out to Dr Lupanzula. It's disappointing they don't join the debate, but I don't blame them for not wanting to engage in something that potentially ends up the same way the last one did.

Outstanding result so far and you know it's still going to get better as the new hair matures. You must be over the moon with your decision to go get the 2nd pass.

How's the scar? You seemed worried about it early on but never showed us any pics or followed up on it. Otherwise, awesome result!

Do I sound crazy by admitting I haven't checked it? I'm kinda scared to do so, and difficult to check it myself. I do have to go see a surgeon in NY to get a new prescription of Fin in a few months, so will maybe get him to check it for me then and take pictures.