olmert

8 hours ago, 12345 said:

I used the 0.1% from anagenica. After one application on July 4 th, it gave me sexual side effects in the form of loss of spontaneous erections, erections when aroused, painful ejaculation, and an on/pff pain in the head of my penis. It took me about 6 weeks for the sides to reside, and about 11 weeks to feel back to normal. 

It was my far the worst sexual sides I had had from any drug, the next worst being clacosterone 1%(Winlevi brand) which resulted in terrible tesiticular pain after 3 applications.

While I did measure my DHT levels before starting it, i did not get a chance to measure it during my symptomatic period (life events got in the way)

i think we can all agree at this point, topical dut goes systemic,  be it xyon brand or any other brand, and medications can definitely penetrate in the dermis of the scalp which houses blood vessels for the med to go systemic

I think the whole theory that dut is to heavy to penetrate the scalp is disproven at this point. i think we can just forget about that statement.

I think we all have different reactions to these anti-androgens due to different genetic make up, and the hormone levels that differ as we age, and out bodies own reactions to changes in hormones.

 

i wouldn't say topical dut is snake oil. i think if you are receiving a legit product it is def absorbed and goes systematically. I think its still a mixed bag of ppl having success versus no success on it

 

I certainly don't think the dut in anagenica has gone systemic in me. 

I tried finasteride pills and instantly lost all libido. I had to stop.  Eventually I tried Anagencia, and my libido stayed high. When I tested my DHT, I found my DHT was much lower with the finasteride pill than with this topical. I feared Anagencia was not penetrating, so I started to microneedle before the Anagenica.  Still, no reduction in libido. 

1 hour ago, Panamera13 said:

How is your experience so far with XYON? Hair and Libido?

Not using Xyon. Using the competitor from Anagenica. It is much cheaper. Libido is great. I don't believe subjective assessments are reliable for whether a topical is growing hair, so I have no idea if it is doing anything. I started micro-needling before using the Anagenica because I skeptical any of it is penetrating. Even with the micro-needling, there is no libido loss, so I have my doubts that any of it is getting inside me.  

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I believe these deviations are consistent with the natural shift in testosterone that we experience. 
 

Pharmaceuticals cost a billion dollars to test in part because you need to test a large population to weed out natural fluctuation. This is why a study of only 10 people isn't much evidence of anything. The study probably means there is a 51% chance topical dutesteride decreases balding, and a 49% chance topical dutesteride does nothing. There is no money to test topical dutesteride with any degree of reliability--to get a figure any higher than 51%. I suppose my own outcome is even less evidence than a 10 person study. I definitely feel, though, that my libido is 10 times higher on topical dutesteride than it was on .2 mg/day of finasteride pills. 

7 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

But that is on par with the results seen in their study, at least two participants increased their DHT. Others, had their DHT lowered by 10-12% and I believe one had it dropped by 20. 

The range of results from the study means just about any result will be considered "on par." 

@hairman804, @Melvin- Moderator, @asterix0, @DedLifts, it boggles my mind how 90% of people think they can subjectively tell whether Dutersteride worked. It has been studied extensively. 90% of people think they can tell the difference between coke and pepsi, but in blind tests only 10% of people can. https://daily.jstor.org/the-coca-cola-wars-can-anybody-really-tell-the-difference/ 

My evidence is not subjective. My objective DHT level went from 36 to 46 when I moved from pills to topical. 

8 minutes ago, DedLifts said:

I'm using it now, and it 100% has improved my hair.

How effective it is compared to oral though, I have no idea.

Studies show people are very bad judges for these things. A better judge is something objective like your DHT count. 

I was taking .25 mg/day of Finasteride pills for many years. 

Then I went off it for 2 weeks and tested my DHT at 36. 

Then I used topical Dutesteride .1% (strongest one) from http://anagenica.com/ for a month. I tested my DHT at 46. 

I can tell you one thing. My sex drive was much lower with the .25 mg/day of Finasteride, and was super high when on the topical Dutesteride. 

Should I conclude the topical Dutesteride doesn't work? If the topical stuff is snake oil, then my DHT should not have gone up, but should have stayed the same. It is also possible there was still some finasteride pills in my system when I tested at 36. I only took 2 weeks off the pill for that test. 

I know Dr. Bhatti says in a Youtube that he doesn't think topical dutesteride/finasteride works.  I'm fearing he is right. Bhatti's warning is two fold. 1. First most stuff you put on skin never penetrates down, so it does nothing.   My DHT level makes me think this is the case. 2. Second, if topical dutesteride does penetrate, it might penetrate so well that it hits the blood and is the same as swallowing a pill. So just swallow a cheap pill. 

5 hours ago, 12345 said:

for ppl just starting to use topical dut who had sides from fin(oral n topical). do you suggest spacing it out every 7 days, or even up to 10 days before the next application?

Anagenica's instructions say to start out once a week, and eventually rise to 3 times a week. 

I was bold and started at 3 times a week. I definitely felt sex effects. So I stopped taking it for 5 days, and the sex effects were gone, I think. I am going to compromise and try twice a week. 

If I were you, I would risk it and start with 3 times a week. It is true, though, that some people have gotten permanent sex effects from oral finasteride; it continued even after the pills stopped. 

12 minutes ago, ITA said:

they always require a prescription from a doctor,

Where do I get a script? What dosage is the script for? 

9 hours ago, Gatsby said:

If you email them they will take a few days to get back to you. You have to tell them what dose you want (eg 0.25ml topical finasteride, etc).

11 hours ago, ITA said:

You could send them an email, and ask if they can provide it to you.

They emailed back "good morning, do you have a medical prescription?" 

What do I do? I'm nervous that they don't think they are allowed to send me the dutesteride. 

On 5/26/2023 at 1:16 AM, ITA said:

It's an Italian pharmacy

But I can't find topical dutesteride on the website you gave. Can you give a link to actual topical dutesteride? 

3 hours ago, ITA said:

https://www.lafarmacia.it/trova-farmacia/parati-lentate-sul-seveso?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=gbp

But where on this website is dutesteride? 

2 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Are you in the US or Canada? I think Farmacia Parati is marginally cheaper than Xyon when you compare the actual dutasteride concentration.

I'm in the USA.

On 5/23/2023 at 2:01 PM, 12345 said:

you have totally ignored everything else I have written such as

I didn't ignore anything. You gave multiple reasons. I said one reason sucked. I didn't comment on the other reasons because I had nothing to add on them. 

On 5/23/2023 at 1:47 PM, Melvin- Moderator said:

I would personally choose Farmacia Parati out of the two.

What is their website? I could not find it on google. I am trying to assess all my options, their costs, and estimated efficacy before deciding whether to take the plunge and go with the expensive Xyon. I also got to consider whether there is room in my budget for CosmeRNA. Using CosmeRNA and Xyon is one pretty penny. 

2 hours ago, 12345 said:

i was considering xyon but the higher strength(2%), and price turned me off. i did not like that you had to keep paying consultation fees for each renewed subscription. i personally feel that it should only apply to your first bottle, not each time after.

You've been duped by marketing. Xyon could, just as easily, have upped the price per bottle and totally gotten ride of all consult fees. That is actually what anagenica does. 

Now, there are good reasons not to get Xyon. Maybe you aren't rich, and Xyon costs the most. Also there will never be large scale studies to prove Xyon causes less systemic effects. 

But a very bad reason not to get Xyon is how they break up the price between bottles and consult fees.  You're taking a stand on principle without realizing the only principle here is marketing. 

1. Whose topical dutesteride will work better? 

2. Whose topical dutesteride is cheaper?

3. About how much are each?   

Minoxidil pills are covered by my insurance. So is finasteride pills, but they end my libido.

Money isn't unlimited with me, as with some of you. So which topical finasteride is cheap? I'm already planning to pay a fortune for CosmeRNA.

46 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Basically, he throws the kitchen sink, oral dutasteride, oral minoxidil, topical anti-androgens, dutasteride with mesotherapy injections.

1. This is the disadvantage of videos instead of writings. The speaker is vague, and might not mean exactly what he appears to say. He uses the word "combination," and then he throws in the kitchen sink. I don't think he really means you should take oral and topical minoxidil at the same time. I have never heard any doctor say to take both. 

2. What is the best topical anti androgen? 

I don't understand.

1. Is he saying to take oral and topical minoxidal at the same time? 

2. Is he saying to take Dutesteride orally, topically, and through mesotherapy at the same time?

3. What are the anti-androgens he is recommending? 

5 hours ago, mustang said:

I think partially because its quite new and partially because Minoxidil is available easily for everyone so why bother.

The only thing that I like better about Trichoxidil in terms of results is the lack of shedding as it thickens the existing one rather than starting a new cycle. I would not venture to say it has superior results than Minoxidil.

For those who have allergies to Minoxidil it will be a God sent.

 

But you said Minoxidil with Trichoxidil gives better results than Minoxidil alone. So Trichoxidil should still be famous. 

But why isn't Trichoxidil better known, if there is all that much evidence it works? 

Do people take trichoxidil and minoxidal at the same time, or it is one or the other? 

23 minutes ago, Anon94 said:

I'd probably recommend the LipoDut for you. Seems like sides are less likely and not having to microneedle (and ending up with the sore scalp) is quite enticing. 

I micro needle anyway 1.5 mm   three times a week. Some doctors think it grows hair. It is a bit painful. You don't really get used to the pain. 

I think the anagenica.com website says you can use both LipoDut .05% and DutMeso .01% because we simply don't know whether both might do more a bit more good than one alone. There isn't much data. 

I suspect DutMeso .01% does more than LipoDut .05%. It just seems logical there should be some payoff from the needle pain; it might penetrate deeper; it might also unfortunately go systemic more with more sex effects.  All speculation. 

https://anagenica.com is really bad at communicating. Most of my emails are ignored. 

I got from them "DutMeso .01%" https://anagenica.com/product/dutmeso-0-01/

1. So do I use an electric micro-needler to poke 1 mm holes, and then apply 2 mL once a week?

2. The bottle has 60 mL. At 2 mL/week, it would last 30 weeks, but it says it is only good 3 month. You lose one month to shipping. So am I supposed to throw the bottle out after 8 weeks using only 16 mL (2 mL/week)?

3. It looks to me that they have a product where you don't microneedle LipoDut .05%.  https://anagenica.com/product/lipodut-0-1/   What is better  LipoDut .05%, or microneedling with DutMeso .01% ? 

4. Should I use them both? It says you can. "This formulation can be used together with CB-03-01 or Dutasteride Mesotherapy."  https://www.fueclinic.com/services/treatments/lipodut/ 

Thanks. 

On 5/5/2023 at 9:50 AM, Melvin- Moderator said:

It’s the same pharmacy that ships topical dutasteride from FUEclinic. Dr. Mwamba prescribes it, this pharmacy is the one who sells it and ships it. @mustang has a thread for their topical dut.

Can you give a link to mustang's thread? I can't find it. Thanks. 

1 hour ago, Gatsby said:

We don’t need a script here either. But how does ketoconozole penetrate the scalp in 5minutes? What is it’s mode of action in treating MPB. I think definitely use it if you feel it’s of benefit. It’s just not for me when it's use is in fighting hair loss.

You want a good rationale. Doctors reject that approach. They think biological functions are too complicated for us to figure out rationales. Doctors just look at the data. The little data we have has shown keto helps a bit. We don't have much data. If it were ever researched more, the new data might say the opposite. 

This reminds me of the debates 10 years ago here over laser therapy. Back then, most doctors said lasers do nothing. They even said there is no way the laser can penetrate the scalp. Gradually over the next ten years, studies came out that say lasers work. Today, the majority of doctors think lasers work. 

By the way, in the US, 1% keto is over the counter. 2% is script. It is probably that way everywhere.