Indian,
Yes, the laser in toys are the exact same lasers used by the LLLT industry.
The lasers used for scar resurfacing are hot, high energy destructive lasers, not low power cold lasers. The former actually work and have a sound basis for doing so, the latter does not.

__________________
Feller Medical, PC
Great Neck, NY

Dr. Alan Feller is a member of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians

Providing Hair Transplants and Platelet Rich Plasma (PRP) Treatments

jeez.....thanks for the clarification Dr feller! that really sucks....nobody should be charging a penny for treatment with those flash toys!

Bill,
I have to ask you this flat out, do you purposefully try to create a disingenuous middle ground for yourself in all posts, or just mine?
Outright misquoting me and then building off of that false premise serves neither you, me, or the community.

You wrote:
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"One statement by Dr. Feller on the same thread indicated that those who have a financial interest in lasers cannot possibly be believed."
-- - - - - - - - -
If you can show me where I wrote or reasonably implied this I would be most appreciative. If you can't, I would ask that you erase that grossly erroneous misquote or misinterpretation from your post.

As for the rest of your post, I wonder if you even watched the video. And if you did, I can only be led to believe that you didn't understand it. And I don't just mean the basic scientific truths I demonstrated, but the much deeper consequences it has for the LLLT industry as a whole.

Although such a video would never be greeted with fanfare, it is nevertheless ground shaking to the LLLT industry because it utterly and completely sweeps away the one theory they built their entire industry upon. They went quite far out on the branch, and now it has been cut. But all this seems lost on you. I don't quite know how I failed you, I really don't.

What part of the video did you not understand? The part where a piece of tissue stopped a 500mw laser beam in its tracks, or the part where within 1mm of tissue paper the light lost it's all important laser property? You know, the property that ALL laser therapy proponents point to as the foundation of their belief that their devices stimulate hair growth?

Bill, your analysis of my video and LLLT in general is factually incorrect:

You wrote:
-----------------
We can see clearly from Dr. Feller's examples that lasers penetrate whatever it touches. The question is, what effect does it have to the area it penetrates?
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The answer is nothing. And that's not just according to ME that's according to the LLLT camp themselves, including Mr. David Michaels of Hairmax in his own FDA clearance application where he stated that LED light is ineffective.
And the point wasn't that lasers penetrate whatever they touch. They don't. The issue was to demonstrate that laser light MUST lose its coherency in order to illuminate anything. That is, if it is illuminating a scalp or my thumb it MUST be incoherent light that's doing the glowing NOT laser light. That's why my thumb glowed the same whether I hit it with a laser or a an LED. The final result was the same and it represents a nail in the coffin of LLLT theory.

You wrote:
------------------
The laser verses LED light examples was also interesting. However, a laser is much more direct in its target than LED light. I would suspect therefore, that the conversion of light to energy is much more direct on the scalp than light that disperses every which direction
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You are incorrect. As my video clearly demonstrates, the moment the laser strikes the skin it instantly looses it's laser properties and from that point on acts like regular monochromatic light coming from a standard LED. The power and directionality of the light are inconsequential- and this comes not just from me, but from the LLLT proponents themselves. They never claimed the problem with standard LEDS was that enough power and directionality couldn't be achieved. They claimed that even under equivalent power (allowing for normal dissipation) LED light could not grow hair because it was incoherent. By the way, we have LEDs that can transilluminate your entire hand and blind you as fast as any laser. Don't confuse the coherency of light with power and directionality.

Your wrote:
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Supposedly, lasers work by releasing targeted energy to the cells causing metobolic changes. This process is said to provide additional nutrients and oxygen to the scalp assisting normal cell chemical processes. If indeed this energy conversion process reaches derma papilla cells, I suspect it may help improve their normal function - to grow healthy hair follicles. What role, if any, this energy conversion process has on DHT, appears to be unknown from my research.
--------------------
And again you are incorrect. You are taking a simplified talking point form the LLLT camp and then creating your own lay simplistic conclusion. There is no evidence that lasers cause beneficial metabolic changes nor provide nutrients and oxygen. If they did, you can be sure all hospital patients would be sleeping under laser lights. Bill, it's just not true. Stop buying into false premises regurgitated from one lay LLLT proponent to the next. We are NOT plants!

Bill, it is obvious that you want to take an anti-laser position because I can read between the lines of what you have been posting about it for years. And you would be absolutely correct. But why do you strain credibility and distort what I wrote in a weak attempt to move to the middle?

In your post you asked who the enemy is. That's easy, it's the person who is either incapable or unwilling to see the truth and tell it for what it is. It's the guys in the middle, because ALL LLLT proponents are in the middle. Not one of them say it works effectively in all patients and at all times. By hedging they avoid taking responsibility for providing a therapy they themselves have serious doubts about. But it doesn't stop them from collecting the money, does it? After my video, I don't see how any ethical "middle of the road" doctor could still accept money for laser therapy. I just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that coherent light does not reach the follicle.

The only righteous people are those who took a look at the dearth of LLLT results and the pseudo-science used to justify it and rightly concluded rightly that LLLT is a non-starter.

__________________
Feller Medical, PC
Great Neck, NY

Dr. Alan Feller is a member of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians

Providing Hair Transplants and Platelet Rich Plasma (PRP) Treatments

not just wasted money, but TIME as well. If they just spend that precious time on exercise losing weight, gain muscles, they would look much better even if they remain bald.

__________________
********
I am not a doctor. The opinions and comments are of my own.

HT with Dr. Cooley on Nov 20, 2008
2097 grafts, 3957 hairs
Proscar, 1.25 mg daily, skip the 5th day, started Nov 2007

My Hair Loss Blog - Hair Transplant with Dr. Cooley

Dr. Feller,

Though I don't appreciate the demeaning tone of your post as if I'm some idiot who couldn't understand your very basic video demonstrating the pointing of a laser at tissue paper, I don't have time to respond to your entire post right now.

However, I feel it's pertinent to address the following immediately, more specifically, your second statement.

First off, I never quoted you. I specifically said

"One statement by Dr. Feller on the same thread indicated that those who have a financial interest in lasers cannot possibly be believed."

This is 100% different than a direct quote. However, my conclusion is based on the statements I presented below. If I am wrong in my interpretation of the words you spoke, I'd like you to offer an viable explanation other than what seems obviously implied.

You said to Dr. Mohmand:

"Why do you blindly follow the "studies" of other doctors who have obvious agendas concerning LLLT?"

and more emphatically...

"Also, Dr. Leavitt has already publicly acknowledged that he is in the laser business, so how could you rely on their presented "study"?"

Can you please explain these comments if you are not implying that those studies performed by those with a financial interest are not reliable?

Regards,

Bill

__________________
Managing Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network, the Hair Loss Learning Center, the Hair Loss Q&A Blog and the Hair Loss Forum and Social Community

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-----

To learn about how I restored my hair, view my my hair loss website.

Remember, true beauty radiates from within, not from the skin.

I am not a medical professional and my words should not be taken as medical advice. All opinions and views shared are my own.

Dr. Feller,

I think it should be clear based on how I presented the information that what I provided about laser therapy is not necessarily my personal view, but rather what is presented by laser therapy advocates. This should have been clear by my use of words and phrases like "supposedly", "this process is said to...", etc.

Whether or not all the claims made are true, in my opinion, is questionable.

So why am I citing my research rather than presenting my forthright conclusion? Two reasons:

1) Because there are a number of ethical surgeons using laser therapy as part of their practice and claim to have some success, I am reluctant claim dogmatically that laser therapy doesn't work. I will however, firmly state that I personally have not seen enough evidence to recommend it as a hair loss treatment.

2) Forum members and guests reading this thread have the right to hear how lasers supposedly work and then draw their own conclusions.

You are clearly in the camp that believes laser therapy is a worthless treatment. There are a number of others (including ethical physicians) that believe that laser therapy may have some level of benefit in terms of healing, and hair loss prevention.

I always lean toward the side of unbelief until I see enough proof that it works. Therefore, before I can confidently recommend laser therapy as a hair loss treatment with any level of benefit, I'd like to see more evidence.

But I am willing to keep an open mind while physicians who use it present their case.

Regards,

Bill

__________________
Managing Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network, the Hair Loss Learning Center, the Hair Loss Q&A Blog and the Hair Loss Forum and Social Community

Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Subscribe to our Newsletters | How We Recommend Physicians

-----

To learn about how I restored my hair, view my my hair loss website.

Remember, true beauty radiates from within, not from the skin.

I am not a medical professional and my words should not be taken as medical advice. All opinions and views shared are my own.

You are clearly in the camp that believes laser therapy is a worthless treatment
------------
And that camp is huge.
Bill why are you doing the dirty work for the cowards that are hiding? Are they even emailing you ?
Could you give us a list of the ethical surgeons you say truly believe in lasers?
Laser therapy has been here in Illinois for 8 years that I know of .How much evidence do you want? LOL
I agree though that maybe theres a small benefit on the scalp right after surgery . Maybe it soothes it or helps the healing . No one has disputed that.
Giving sessions for transplant patients for free would be ok ,but charging people because it "might" help stop fallout is ridiculous and downright bogus.
I love how these laser promises went from growing hair , THEN to making it grow thicker THEN to maintaining hair NOW to possibly helping with healing. People are paying thousands for growth not a hope they "just" keep their thin hair.
Hair doesnt fall out overnight. A doc could get a year or two out of a patient before the patient even notices any loss,and that its not working.
Whats next after those last two probably fail.
It gives your hair luster and shine . Nothing like taking out a loan for luster and shine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rHFS9UyZYM

__________________
I am zee capt'N!!!

Please tell me what the difference is when Drs (and almost everyone on these boards) recommend minoxidil or propecia. Its always stated that potential HT patients should try using propecia for 6 months to a year to see if it works for you. Just about every HT Dr out there says that, yet we don't see Drs posting photos of hair growth. They only post photos of their HTs.


This again is the same as minoxidil and propecia. When they first came out they were supposed to grow a moderate amount of hair in at least 80% of patients. Both of them over the years are now down to hopefully you will be able to maintain what you have for a few years. There's even talk now that any positive effects wear off after 3 or 4 years. That means after years of using them you'll most likely have no benefit, yet all HT Drs keep telling everyone to use them.

I think I've heard of 2 people who have grown enough hair to decide they didn't need a HT yet. I know Janna (think it was Janna) posted a picture of amazing growth with minoxidil, but I believe it was later acknowledged that the person was also using other things and there may have even been a concealer involved.

So again, what's the difference between those and lasers?

I didnt know doctors charge thousands for minox and fin. I geuss there is no difference then
Hmmm well its worth it since there are thousands of pics SHOWING THEY WORK!!!!
Lasers for hair have been out just as long .
Is there one super responder to lasers,just one .
There are alot for the other two. Check around the forums.
Behappy stop taking the fin and using the minox and see how fast those few hairs your grew thinking it was from the brush fall out